Can we talk about clothing brands and target demographics?

[CrkdLttrCrkdLttr]

Because I’m thinking about the brands that form the core of my ‘going out to meet other grown ups’ wardrobe, and laughing at the Margaret Howell mail shot I’ve just opened. (Socks and sandals photo.) Beautiful young model, and each garment will be wonderfully well made - but I know no one under fifty who wears MH. That’s fine - but I wish the marketing acknowledged the fact.

When a brand does make an effort to engage with the real buyers of its clothes I’m full of awe and gratitude - Raey at Matches is usually great at this.

Studio Nicholson hovers somewhere in between. Again, everyone I know (in the UK) who wears their clothes is older and richer than me, probably in a creative profession. Not a wispy 20 year old.

I never used to care. But I’m wondering if marketing is the reason 99% of the middle aged and older women on MN exclaim that there are no decent clothes for them. There are - but not every brand tells you so.

It may be that nobody appears to want your custom, @gogohmm , but that doesn’t mean there aren’t excellent clothes with your name inscribed on them. For one thing, your healthy budget will mean you can try brands that cut more generously - so you may discover you’re a size 14 in some places that don’t seem to offer much in a 16.

The three brands in my OP all accommodate a fairly wide range of sizes - without advertising the fact. I couldn’t recommend Toast these days, but their sizing was always … extravagant. I know both Ganni and The Reformation go up to much larger than a 16 - they’re always worth browsing if you like their particular look. Wildcard - much of King and Tuckfield’s men’s collection is equally good for women; it just comes in larger sizes. MaxMara’s stock is generally nicer than that of Marina Rinaldi (which goes up to the mid 20s in sizes IIRC) - with a little patience one could pick the best from both.

(From shopping with other people I haven’t observed size 16 as being difficult to dress. Size 18 is where it seems the generality of shops stop being of any use.)

@MmePoppySeedDefage

only half way through the thread but you might have meant this shop

www.sirene-boutique.com/

I have an amazing top from there - looks glorious after 1000 washes. Must go back

Size 18 does seem to be where both sides seem to go 'not mine' and a size 16 on the high street may very well be a size 18 designer which many don't even bother to do and if they do, they don't try very hard to grade patterns with how bodies are different at this size.

More budget, Monki is liked at this size and uses models of different sizes. I did spot a mid size model on Net A Porter the other day but they just stuck her in stretchy things . Tbh American designers do it better and clothes come up bigger anyhow. Vince do larger sizes but not sure if they sell those here but 16-18 probably is available, Tkmaxx has the occasional bit. ££££ but Christopher John Rogers caters up to size 20uk iirc. Rick Owens can also be worn in larger sizes but that has to be a look you're into.

And I had to go check where they started but The Hour start at size 14 and have a high quality ethos. Natan is a Belgian designer that goes up to larger sizes but I'm not surr how available it is in the UK.

All of the labels I've mentioned on this thread (Palava, Eponine, Batsheva, Cabbages and Roses) go to at least 16. Batsheva is possibly the most outré but some of their dresses go to a 20. Palava have some dresses up to 22.

Max Mara goes to 18.

This is just a small selection of sites I've bookmarked - all go to at least 16.

daydress.co.uk/collections/the-dresses/products/isla-dress-in-chequers

www.katebarton.co.uk/collections/dresses-skirts

meadows-store.com/collections/dresses

nrbyclothing.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAjbagBhD3ARIsANRrqEv6y2RDk0xhfaZ0D622FFjNu2iBYSTIbV-BWWyGZkTRD7CtyXSJIygaAmfNEALw_wcB

www.justinetabak.co.uk/collections/dresses

communityclothing.co.uk/collections/womenswear/dresses

Both are 20s, max 30s demographic, unless you're an older woman who is stick thin, taller than average, and quite quirky in your taste.

Oh dear, what a pity, never mind. I'm none of that apart from quirky in my taste. I'm very much enjoying wearing my Batsheva dress.

What are you basing that on, @mathanxiety? Models used in publicity or on their websites? Geographical location? How people you know dress? The clothes themselves? Because obviously this is the central point of this thread - what makes people, women in particular, believe certain brands are for them. Does conscious branding deceive, intimidate, confuse - to the point where a huge proportion of women believe that after 35 / 40 / whatever, they’re only supposed to shop at Next? Or Hobbs, if it’s a special occasion.

Batsheva is much less established in the UK - so I have less of an impression of who is wearing their clothes. We talked, way back at the start of the thread, about who we see actually wearing MH, in the UK and elsewhere - so I won’t repeat the conversation here, but I can assure you I’m neither stick thin nor tall! I have a great fondness for the brand - what prevents me from buying more than I do there is the mainly unsuitable colour palette, not an impression that I’m the wrong age.

@privateeyeeye that wasn't the shop actually - though that one looks interesting. I suspect the one I'm thinking about was a pop-up. I'll have to pop back, and do some research, won't I?!

I can pay a visit to this shop too, which I discovered last time I was in Brighton: www.tribecabrighton.com/collections/new-in

It’s interesting about Batsheva. I’ve been pondering a blouse or dress for a few seasons.

I’m not in the above demographic but I do wonder how they fit slightly more generously boobed people. I love the outlines and structure.

I think silhouette or profile is definitely a subconscious in/out decider for some I know. It can feel very personal. I am also terrible at sewing shirts and refuse to buy a special shirt from
bravissimo as useful as they are.

(Side note I find Batshevas styling and models most entertaining, particularly some of the kids.)

I'm 63. The dress I bought was tightly fitted over the bodice. I'm a 14 depending on dress style. The 14 was too tight. The 16 is a perfect fit.

The first time I became aware of Batsheva was when Kamala Harris' stepdaughter wore it to her inauguration (and a 5K Miu Miu coat). Then she got to model for them so it became a story and made the brand more prominent. So I suppose add trust fund kid to the demographic. I don't know any other 20-30 yo olds with the money that would be interested in it, personally, but maybe it's different in Brooklyn?

I really don't pay that much attention to models when I'm looking to buy something so I completely miss the target demographic dictation. This may be the Gorey in me, but I prefer nothing more than a headless model. They're all tall with long limbs (even if they're plus size and petite, they're tall for petite) how they fit those individuals doesn't inform me that much. Yes, how it hangs, what the lines of the design are generally and where it's fitted or not is all there's to deduce from it. Flat photography of the items tend to be more informative of fit for me, the model shots are more of an indication of vibe to use the most current term for it.

Flat photography of the items tend to be more informative of fit for me

The flat photography of the MN hardy perennial Nancy Mac for, well just about any formal occasion, make their tea dresses look beautiful.

On the model it's clear that they are bias cut and quite skimpy and that they will probably not suit anyone with a bum. They look like the sort of dress that when you sit down it will rid up under your thighs, showing lots of upper leg.

I agree with Lurkingshark- the Batsheva models can be hilarious.

Yes, I agree, bias cut does require different considerations and flat photography isn't informative at all in that case. It's useful to have both, and I love an odd styling shoot but for determining to buy something online and predict fit it's not all that telling.

Yes I’d love to know if there is best practice to showing off cut and drape accurately in pictures online, and if brands ignore them now.

thanks @NatashaDancing it’s very helpful and confirmed my thoughts.

Community Clothing seems much loved on S&B. I can't see any drape to them and they seem a bit boxy to me. Is it the styling?

I might be put off because I don't like shaped hems. I'm small of bum and thing so like a bias cut, but I do have boobs so the tiered dresses with no waists look like maternity smocks on me.

www.nancymac.co.uk/collections/print-dresses/products/sable-dress-in-green-hydrangea-crepe-1

Looks lovely flat but on the model, it's a strong No from me. Too short and too skimpy.

Interestingly Nancy Mac never show views from the side or back. All the sites I buy from have full 360° photos and often videos too (most sites do)

MerryChristmasToYou
I've not heard of Community Clothing but some of their pieces are my sort of look.

I like to play with the contrast between oversized items and slim fit, but can't get away with boxy.
Some of their dresses seem like a boxy version of joules breton tops, but I could be tempted by something like this communityclothing.co.uk/collections/womens-dresses-jumpsuits/products/womens-collarless-shirt-dress-black-linen

Finding nice linen clothing that's stylish and not frumpy is quite hard in my experience.

Community Clothing gathered popover dresses
communityclothing.co.uk/collections/womens-dresses-jumpsuits/products/gathered-dress-navy?variant=30745440321590

are basically a much cheaper version of this Liberty dress.

www.libertylondon.com/uk/butterfield-poppy-tana-lawn%E2%84%A2-cotton-short-sleeve-shirt-dress-000774451.html#pos=7

Community Clothing doesn't have the piped edge that the Liberty Dress has and obviously it's not made of Liberty Tana Lawn.

However although it's much cheaper than the Liberty Dress it's made in the UK. I have 2 of the Liberty dresses but if I couldn't afford them I'd far rather buy the plain CC dress than a cheap, fake copy of the Liberty dress.

Community Clothing is a brilliant idea, and the odd thing I've had has been good value basics, and made in Britain, which I definitely like. I bought a dress last year though, which, while well-made of lovely shirting cotton (deadstock) was
gigantic on me. It's still in the sale, I see.

Re linen: I've mstly stopped buying it because you just can't get good-enough quality so ar as I can see. I managed to buy an unusual linen jacket from M&S about 7 years ago, when they hd a short-lived 'made in Britain' range, and it's made a of superb heavy Irish linen, which doesn't particularly crease. My mum had a Moygashel dress in the 1960s of a similar quality and again that didn't crease. They are/were both the same sort of fabric as this dress

That's the same issue I have with linen lines at the moment. I used to have a fabulous pair of versatile linen trousers that I wore every summer, but with age and children came weight gain and I got rid of them. Every pair I've tried since have been far too thin, especially lighter colours. They end up looking quite cheap.

Not Perfect Linen look nice but it's international postage and difficult returns since Brexit so I can't justify it to try.

Maybe we should have a thread for made in the UK clothing.

@LolaSmiles , the dress is ok, but I don't like the shirt-style hem, and I think it's the belt that makes it look like it's got shape.
There's a jumpsuit that looks ok, but there's no rear view, and that's where jumpsuits are tricky, IMO.
I like the ethos, and they look good quality and the prices are good, so I might try them.
There is nothing that jumps out and says 'Buy Me!'

NatashaDancing, the Liberty dress comparison is a revelation.
I have some Liberty shirts, and I only noticed that one of them had a very badly matched front when I sold it. I'd only worn it a couple of times, but the shame!

I had a look at their last chance to buy page and I like a dress and a pair of jeans.
The dress has the dreaded curved hem, and I don't need jeans.

People, what do you have against boxy fits? Boxy is very interesting if it's done well. We have truly, I think, moved past figure-skimming silhouettes at this moment in time. They just look too conservative to me (don't mean to offend anyone) but I had to archive some of my beloved dresses when I last tried them on. The mirror told me I looked like Liz Truss - all of a sudden

Re the Liberty Dress and Nancy Mac dress, I said the Nancy Mac dress was too short. The Liberty dress is also knee length on the model but the site says the model is 5' 11". I'm about 5',4" so it's mid calf on me.

Nancy Mac don't give the model's height.

Well I've just lost half of day of my life to Cabbages and Roses, which is interesting because I remember them from the Monty Don thread and I don't think I was struck at that time, but now the full, ankle length skirts and short, fitted jackets are really calling to me.
I'm normally a Katharine Hepburn / Fran Lebowitz kind of dresser - Margaret Howell demographic minus the MH income. But I also have an inner Grace Kelly / Stevie Nicks / Helena Bonham Carter that breaks out occasionally.