Strange ideas about age, ageism on S&B.

[Pangolin44]

A bit of a mangled thread title, but I'm always slightly agog when it comes to age on this board.

So many 'Can I wear X at Y age?' threads. So many comments about 'age-appropriate' attire. Mutton-dressed-as-lamb always rears its head. Granny shoes, frumpy coats, 'I'm 35 am I too old for mini-skirts?'.

And don't get me started on hair! Bejeysus.

And this is women, talking to other women.

It makes me sad more than anything else, people are obviously posting on this board because they're interested in clothes and style, why close off any area of style because of age? The thought that women think they can't express themselves physically due to an imagined arbitrary cut-off.

I would love to free women from this idea, what's the worst that can happen?

Over the last ten years or so, I have been enjoying Ari Seth Cohen's blog and books : Advanced Style.
He grabs photos from stylish and creatively dressed older people in the street, as well as his favourites, like Iris Apfel, Evelyn Hall and others.
I find it a joyful inspiration and am definitely influenced by it, especially now that I am closer to seventy than to sixty and have the fully developed don't give a fuck of the Crone.
Yes, I said Crone! The calm, grave, wise older woman that used to be respected, if not revered. We should reclaim that word and that concept.

The worst of the ageism I think, is the blanket generalisations people insist on applying to other women. The worst offenders being people who are that age themselves, and struggle to conceive that not every other woman is like them. 'A 50 year old can never look as beautiful as a 20 year old' 'At 60 you won't have the legs for a mini skirt' 'no one looks younger than their age after menopause' and so on, with anyone suggesting differently accused of being sad and deluded.

Totters you're right of course.

As I posted earlier on this thread so many women have very low self esteem. For a lot of them it seems to me that the thought that looking like a contestant in Rupaul's Drag Race ( disregarding the drag part) is the WAY to look is shocking I blame the Krdashians and their ilk.

(I’ve missed you on ‘TA’, by the way, ppeatfruit …)

@ppeatfruit

Totters you're right of course.

As I posted earlier on this thread so many women have very low self esteem. For a lot of them it seems to me that the thought that looking like a contestant in Rupaul's Drag Race ( disregarding the drag part) is the WAY to look is shocking I blame the Krdashians and their ilk.

Why would you imagine that a woman choosing to present herself in a way you don't like has low self esteem? I would suggest that the way a woman does her make up says less about her character than a spiteful and offensive comparison to a man says about that of the person making it.

It applies to the men too 5128, if you think wearing a full face mask is great for everyone's self esteem then good for you. Obviously I was speaking generally Calling people names is not polite btw.

Totters Blimey I have tried to relisten to TA. It's not the same!

@ppeatfruit

It applies to the men too 5128, if you think wearing a full face mask is great for everyone's self esteem then good for you. Obviously I was speaking generally Calling people names is not polite btw.

Totters Blimey I have tried to relisten to TA. It's not the same!

I don't see make up choice as a signifier of self esteem. I don't think your comment about looking like they were in Ru Paul's drag race was aimed at men. I haven't called anyone names.

Of course you know what I'm thinking, it certainly does apply to the men too. They all look very sad.

I do understand if it's to cover problems though.

@ppeatfruit

Of course you know what I'm thinking, it certainly does apply to the men too. They all look very sad.

I do understand if it's to cover problems though.

The men on that show ARE in drag. That's what it looks like. I don't care for it, but that's a different discussion. Women in heavy make up are NOT men in drag, they are women. Suggesting that they look like the men on that show is insulting, exaggerated and spiteful. If that was not what you were thinking, and I've misunderstood, then fair enough.

I'm always surprised when someone asks "can I wear this aged 32?" or says they are too shy/not confident enough to wear something. Comfortable clothes and shoes are immediately deemed to be for older people only for some reason while some brands are only for the youngsters.

Individuality is criticised lot on here too though for example posts about dungarees making people look like "an overgrown toddler" or colourful/patterned clothes being too garish for anyone over the age of 5 or whatever, like we need to adopt a sensible grown up style (just not too sensible so you don't look like your granny )

I enjoy reading this board as I care about clothes even though I don't follow trends. And I wear a lot of bright prints and embrace my grey hairs, so it's quite amusing to see people hate that so much.

Well it seems to me that wearing a full face mask is not a great idea for anyone. Men and women, Why should there be a difference?

Drag is obviously the new look.

Oh my goodness, I agree with so many posts here, I'm not going to tag or quote anyone directly, because that would be most people!

I have just started a 'what to wear' post, I'm late 40s and suddenly lockdown + peri changed my appearance.

During Covid/lockdowns etc I saw so much ageism on MN. Not so much on S&B, but on other boards. Sometimes it was overt, sometimes covert, there were some posts along the lines of 'why should we all be in lockdown? The over 50s are old and dying anyway.'
Wait. what?
I'm only a few years away from 50, am I supposed to accept that I am now a useless encumbrance to society? Because I'm still working in a demanding industry that gives back, paying my taxes etc.

The other aspect is that I have so much more spending money now than I did when I was younger and especially when I had small children.
Why aren't marketing people falling all over themselves to sell me things?

I'm not going to give up personally or style-wise, just because people are ageist.

I will concede that I have been having Botox regularly for a few years, I've always had an impressive resting bitch face, even when I'm happy! Fine lines were making me look even more angry, so they had to go!

Of course, ageism doesn't apply to men in quite the same way.

When it comes to S&B? Try telling Vivienne Westwood that she can't go out looking like that! And so many other women besides.

I'm at that looking in my wardrobe thinking 'damn, what do I wear'? stage.
I want to embrace the way I look, not hide it in unflattering layers in bland colours. And I don't want to become invisible, just because that's what society says I should do.
I want to claim my place, shouldn't I be able to do that?
Or am I really supposed to be put out to pasture now?

@TooManyMehTooLittleThyme

Oh my goodness, I agree with so many posts here, I'm not going to tag or quote anyone directly, because that would be most people!

I have just started a 'what to wear' post, I'm late 40s and suddenly lockdown + peri changed my appearance.

During Covid/lockdowns etc I saw so much ageism on MN. Not so much on S&B, but on other boards. Sometimes it was overt, sometimes covert, there were some posts along the lines of 'why should we all be in lockdown? The over 50s are old and dying anyway.'
Wait. what?
I'm only a few years away from 50, am I supposed to accept that I am now a useless encumbrance to society? Because I'm still working in a demanding industry that gives back, paying my taxes etc.

The other aspect is that I have so much more spending money now than I did when I was younger and especially when I had small children.
Why aren't marketing people falling all over themselves to sell me things?

I'm not going to give up personally or style-wise, just because people are ageist.

I will concede that I have been having Botox regularly for a few years, I've always had an impressive resting bitch face, even when I'm happy! Fine lines were making me look even more angry, so they had to go!

Of course, ageism doesn't apply to men in quite the same way.

When it comes to S&B? Try telling Vivienne Westwood that she can't go out looking like that! And so many other women besides.

I'm at that looking in my wardrobe thinking 'damn, what do I wear'? stage.
I want to embrace the way I look, not hide it in unflattering layers in bland colours. And I don't want to become invisible, just because that's what society says I should do.
I want to claim my place, shouldn't I be able to do that?
Or am I really supposed to be put out to pasture now?

I'm also 50s and have noticed a lot of these things too. It seems to me that a lot of women have internalised negativity towards aging, and there's much self hatred (projected to similar aged women) from those who have reached middle age; and fear and distancing from women who aren't there yet. So much criticism and ridicule of older women who don't want to get in their box, whether it be going out to 'age inappropriate' places (sad) daring to date a man who isn't a sensible few years older (grim) wearing clothes supposedly designed for younger women (mutton dressed as lamb) or daring to believe oneself still attractive over 40 (deluded). Truly if I took note of the views on here rather than my RL experiences, I'd be sitting in every night in a sensible sack looking back wistfully on my lost glory days, rather than getting out there and enjoying the half of my adult life that still (hopefully!) lies ahead of me.

[quote Hop27]@Jonsnowsghost - another mini skirt lover here!
I've posted recently about what to wear whilst visiting the UK and was firmly told that a mini skirt will make me stand out I find the style and beauty board pretty confusing at times! [/quote]
I think that was me, and it was absolutely nothing to do with age. I don't even know what age you are. This was in the context of you saying you hate tights and plan to wear Louboutins. A mini skirt, bare legs and high heels would look unusual in the UK, especially since it's still pretty cold. A mini skirt with black tights and DMs would be different. You asked what to bring to the UK. Don't misrepresent what I said as an ageist comment.

[quote Hop27]@Jonsnowsghost - another mini skirt lover here!
I've posted recently about what to wear whilst visiting the UK and was firmly told that a mini skirt will make me stand out I find the style and beauty board pretty confusing at times! [/quote]
The S&B board is confusing because the guidance about what to wear only applies to one demographic, lifestyle and set of experiences. That of the person posting. Which on the board is often women 35+, living in the SE who gen up a lot on what are purported to be the latest trends, and apply a certain confirmation bias to their own preferences. You will be told categorically that no one wears skinny jeans, but when you get here, you will find that in most towns and cities in the UK, women do. You will be told that heels are dated, and no young women wear them. Again, blatantly untrue, as a night out in most cities will demonstrate. I don't live in London, but go a lot for work, and it's one of the most diverse and eclectic cities. People wear all sorts, and to be perfectly honest, like everywhere else, most look rather ordinary, and unremarkable in a variety of styles. It's also full of tourists wearing the styles they are familiar with. No you wouldn't generally see heels, bare legs and a mini skirt in the day in the uk (where would you though?) But there are lots of places where that would be perfectly fine in the evening. The people saying otherwise obviously just don't go to them.

"I agree that our culture has got ageing horribly wrong and the whole process should be treated with more respect."

Yes, this @notwavingbutdrowning5

I think the S & B section, and Mumsnet as a whole, is quite good at challenging any casual ageism. But in 'the outside world' generally there's room for massive improvement.

I grew up in the 80s. My role models were the woman at Greenham common, Sigourney Weaver in Alien and Sarah Connor in Terminator. Genuinely don’t see these badass role models now for younger women. I mean I’m happy to be proven wrong here!!!

Well said. There is a tonne of ageism on MN. But, equally, anyone who says they do not factor their age into how they dress at all is a liar. How do I know? The evidence of my own eyes. Where are all the 70 years olds in ultra minis, playsuits, and crop tops?

All the "I never think about my age at all when dressing" posts are actually an internalised form of ageism. Why is it wrong to consider your age when dressing, if you are older? No one would think it weird for a 16 year old to want to dress like other 16 year olds, and not like a 60 year old. So what is wrong with women in their 50s, 60s, or 70s, wanting to consider what will suit someone of their age?

I'm 71 and still wear DMs in various colours and Levi jeans..I don't stand out in a crowd nor do I feel like I'm the oldest swinger in town...they're just my clothes and they're always going to be.

‘Mutton dressed as lamb’ virtually never makes an appearance. I think it’s quite legitimate to chat about what to wear as you get older. It’s not really a case of what is or isn’t ‘appropriate’, but some styles really do best suit the young and lithe, and many woman, I think, want to look a bit more polished, even sophisticated, as they get older. We all know what frumpy etc means. It’s convenient shorthand. I find people coming on to this board to upbraid us with their rather 6th Form feminism tiresome.

Haven’t RTFT, but often the reason people talk about age is because it’s the thread topic! If someone is asking about skin care and how to look younger, for example, then of course people will discuss ways to look more youthful. It’s not ageism, it’s advice that the OP asked for.

What I find peculiar though is the 90% (or seems like it) of posters who believe they look 35 when they’re 48. It’s definitely a disproportionate number. It’s hard to tell if it’s innocent delusion/outdated view of what middle aged women actually look like, or just pure fantasy because it’s an anonymous forum.

What I find peculiar though is the 90% (or seems like it) of posters who believe they look 35 when they’re 48. It’s definitely a disproportionate number. It’s hard to tell if it’s innocent delusion/outdated view of what middle aged women actually look like, or just pure fantasy because it’s an anonymous forum.

A way to accept the ageing process I sometimes think and not consciously done. There will be some for who it's pure fantasy.

Though I know of a couple of people who do look at least 10 years younger but they're a rarity compared to posts here.

What I find peculiar though is the 90% (or seems like it) of posters who believe they look 35 when they’re 48. It’s definitely a disproportionate number. It’s hard to tell if it’s innocent delusion/outdated view of what middle aged women actually look like, or just pure fantasy because it’s an anonymous forum

I think it's partly a generational comparison. If you are in your 40s/50s/60s now, looking back at your parents/GPs at the same age, they do look older because there was a much greater age divide in how people dressed. Looking at photos of my grandmother - who was athletic and sporty all her life and in no way a classic little old lady - she still looks really old in her 50s and 60s because she is always in what now seem very formal clothes, with an older woman hairstyle - this isn't her in the photo, but this is the sort of thing she wore.

If I compare myself at the same age, I seem younger, but really because I am styled younger, not because I actually look young for my age.

I know the demographic on this site is younger, mostly parents and all that, however, there is NO WAY at 65 I am migrating to Gransnet ever, that would tip me over the edge completely.

Now back to the topic, OK I am 66 this Summer and I don't feel any different to how I felt ten or more years ago. It seems I woke up one morning and realised that my 65th birthday coincided with the August Bank Holiday, it seemed to have happened overnight! I felt no different but my passport needed renewal and that's when the penny dropped. Uh Oh.

I retired early, and up to then I was in a job that required good grooming, neat dress, yada yada. I can tell you the day I got my retirement cards ALL those clothes went straight to the Cancer charity shop. Gone, out of my sight!

Now I wear nice sometimes pricy casual stuff, and some very cheap stuff, whatever takes my fancy. The difference between me and younger women is that I don't have to go to work anymore so can wear what I like anytime I want. My wardrobe consists of millions of lovely Tshirts, linen trousers, midi dresses, nice tops and very expensive tailored trousers for going out, trainers, sandals, and ONE pair of leather low block heel shoes for the dressing up gigs. That's the Summer and holidays sorted. For Winter it's good fitting jeans, cashmere and cheapo jumpers, trainers, leather ankle boots and of course loose warm ahem jogging pants.

For Summer my clothes are white, pearl grey, vibrant fuschia, lime green and cobalt blue, purple etc., all colours and I love them. My hair is dyed medium blonde, very subtle and darker than all the blondes around me, shoulder length although most of the time I wear it up in a messy thing or a cool chignon with diamante clip to hold it. Just earrings, but some mad ones.

My one rule is to never wear anything that I will fiddle with or feel uncomfortable in. If that means sizing up, I will.

So how do I rate? Bear in mind that I am very mobile and am just back from an 8 day trip to Seville, Cordoba, Granada, Malaga, and clocked 110 kms just walking around. No joint problems thankfully.

Apologies for the long post, but the length of the post reflects my age lol. 😂

There is a particularly egregious example of ageism on the William Morris sneakers thread.

A poster who is "an artist in the fashion industry" telling the OP that a pretty pair of cotton sneakers aren't "cool" and "like something an OAP would wear"