Strange ideas about age, ageism on S&B.

[Pangolin44]

A bit of a mangled thread title, but I'm always slightly agog when it comes to age on this board.

So many 'Can I wear X at Y age?' threads. So many comments about 'age-appropriate' attire. Mutton-dressed-as-lamb always rears its head. Granny shoes, frumpy coats, 'I'm 35 am I too old for mini-skirts?'.

And don't get me started on hair! Bejeysus.

And this is women, talking to other women.

It makes me sad more than anything else, people are obviously posting on this board because they're interested in clothes and style, why close off any area of style because of age? The thought that women think they can't express themselves physically due to an imagined arbitrary cut-off.

I would love to free women from this idea, what's the worst that can happen?

It would be disingenuous to claim that there are no such things as garments or styles which are generally favoured by the very young or the elderly, or that a 90yo wouldn't look a bit unusual in a strappy top and a mini skirt. But what I find baffling and irritating is when MNers discourage other posters from wearing perfectly normal things or having short hair on the grounds of it being 'aging'. It's just absurd.

My perfect (as in healthy, hard working, honest) daughter is 19. She thinks she needs various cosmetic procedures because that is what is being sold to her: that at 19 she needs wrinkle treatment, lifts and suctions and so on. I am a wrinkly 50 year old who realises that health is THE best gift I have been given and lines etc are inevitable evidence of having had a life.

My 19 yo would also be more conservative in dress than i am because, like many 40 plus yo's i found that the invisibility that comes with being female and over 40 comes with a great freedom. There are so few people whose opinions I truly value at this age.

I would not chose to go back in time and Be younger. Maybe fewer joint aches and fewer friends being diagnosed with cancer but I believe our age is a great thing to be celebrated and appreciated and maybe we need to change societal values by not seeing age as more than a marker of your time on earth.

Fellow mners: you are fabulous Just as you are! Go you!

In my teens I would definitely have gone for any looks enhancement I could afford.
Not realising that the reason I didn't have a string of men pining for me was a lot more to do with my lack of self esteem and social anxiety. (which lead to not joining clubs, taking up sport etc where I would have met more people)

Perhaps your 19 year old should have some counselling or a life coach or similar to readjust her views on herself.

I disagree with the poster who said give over on the "age is a state of mind thing". I firmly believe it is.

That was me. The attitude that optimism and curiosity and positivity are the preserve of the young riles me as much as using 'old lady' as shorthand for ugly.

And yes, I think about death quite often now because all the generation above me in my family are dead, as are some of my friends. I use it to spur me on, to remind me that time is starting to run out and that I can't afford to piss around any more. I think it's ridiculous to deny it.

Sorry for wandering off style and beauty talk.

65 or over is generally considered “elderly” in medical/social terms.
It’s not a pejorative term, and should have no bearing on how you dress. I’m 69, elderly, and my dress and appearance would be standard among those of my acquaintance twenty or thirty years younger, apart from my fabulous silver hair, which would be very difficult to achieve naturally without ageing.

This post got me thinking about how my body and attitude has changed so much over my life, from being a punk teenager who looked different to my peers but if I'm honest very much followed the norms of my tribe; to young professional trying to cover up my youth by wearing conservative suits; to mum with non sleeping child who considered showering an achievement never mind fashion choices; to back to work a bit older and a bit tubbier trying to find a balance between suits and smart casual (I fucking hate smart casual) and now post menopausal, living in a tropical environment when I've always looked better in 'winter clothes'.

Lucky for me I'm currently in a 'loving what I wear and how I look' moment of self confidence, long may it continue. But in all my previous iterations, I have definitely gone through moments of self-doubt and unable to know what I wanted to wear and looking awful for it. I welcomed other women to tell me what they thought looked good for certain occasions, to ease my self doubt which probably came from other areas like work, parenting etc but manifested itself in my clothes and appearance - because I could change those even if I couldn't change other things.

Maybe sometimes all of that angst gets phrased clumsily especially on the internet. For sure there is agism and snobbery everywhere and definitely on MN, but sometimes an awkward turn of phrase is just that, a badly worded post not a sweeping indictment of womankind!

(after all that soul searching I feel the need to go look at frivol and frills )

I agree there's a difference between a poster whose confidence is at an all time low who phrases something a bit clumsily, and someone throwing around a casual ageist insult. I'd place most of the 'Am I too old to wear....?' threads in the first category.

This is a fascinating discussion, it's so true that we can be our own worst critics. Where does it come from? Is it the media, probably.

I think it's our self esteem which can be damaged so easily by a careless word from parents. teachers, partners, peers etc. I'm 71 and definitely feel more relaxed about fashion and myself now (in fact now I hate fast fashion so much due to the environmental damage done by fast fashion). It's a great excuse to wear what suits me , buy in charity shops etc. SOD fashion.

There are clothes and hairdo's that suit you, your body, your skin colour, your image - that bring out your confidence and project what you want to say to the world - and clothes that don't. End of.

@Pangolin44

It wasn't the sofa bed that was the problem *@Floisme*, it was the 'elderly' at 65.

65 ain't elderly.

I get where you’re coming from and can see why it’s a massive mindset change to start seeing yourself as ‘elderly’ - at whatever age.

But the upbeat mumsnet posts that say ‘45 isn’t middle aged’ or ‘75 isn’t elderly’ seem completely deluded to me. Based purely on life expectancy 45 is most definitely middle aged and 75 is most definitely elderly! I think all of us just need to start owning these terms and seeing them as positives as much as possible.

@Polyanthus2

I think the problem is that your views on your age/ageing change as you age. an example is the above comment OP I'm 35 and just bought a mini-skirt, it looks great

Well to me 35 is young, not very young but young and you can wear whatever you want - hilarious that I presume poster thinks that's quite old for a mini skirt.

I'm nearly 70.

I don't think it's old, I just picked up on what the OP said :) I think anyone can wear whatever they like and there shouldn't be the stigma of it being "too old" for particular looks.

I’m on the S&B boards all the time, and love them. I don’t generally see Be Age Appropriate comments (thank god). But maybe I ‘bleep’ over them as they just don’t resonate. There can be judgements on any post, because like it or not, we all make ‘em, we just don’t always say them out loud (and it’s easier on here for obvious reasons), and we are all different ages on here with different experiences. Anyhoo, I wear what I like and give no fucks but still like to ask people on here for opinions now and again.

But the upbeat mumsnet posts that say ‘45 isn’t middle aged’ or ‘75 isn’t elderly’ seem completely deluded to me. Based purely on life expectancy 45 is most definitely middle aged and 75 is most definitely elderly! I think all of us just need to start owning these terms.

Yup. I have little time for biology and mortality denying.

This is such an interesting topic. IMO I think it’s partly lazy or internet-shorthand phrasing and partly a residual cultural feeling that older (and also larger women) are simultaneously invisible and absurd figures for amusement. My family live overseas and are routinely horrified by the ‘amusing’ cards featuring older ladies with saggy breasts, etc., that are commonplace here.

Caitlin Moran recently wrote (paraphrasing) that between 38-45 most women have the experience of opening their wardrobe and finding that nothing fits right or works for them as it did before. I think a lot of the ‘can I still wear this / is this aging’ posts come from this place.

For myself, I think that I have become aware of this at the right age (early 40s) to avoid the sense of lost identity. I’m certainly in the ‘wear what I want’ camp with one eye on trends, and hopefully this will continue as I get older.

Just on the ‘is xx age too old to wear yy?’ questions, the answer to these are generally 99% ‘Wear what you want irrespective of age.’

I was thinking the other day how chuffed I was that I do not look my age but sadly it is not my face that lets me down but the fact I have Rheumatoid Arthritis in one knee in particular and shuffle along like an old woman. No wonder people often give me a seat on the bus! In fact two old ladies wanted to sit where I was. I got up , painfully slowly and as they got off , one said "Oh I am sorry, I didn't realise you had problems too!" I am THAT person the teenagers roll their eyes as they try to get past me!!!

If someone posts, for example, "Can I wear dungarees at 50?" the responses are generally " wear what you like, age is no barrier" The ageism comes out though if someone posts " Can you suggest an outfit for my 65 year old mother to wear to a wedding?" Then all the dreadful frumpy outfits are suggested.
I'm 65 but I try not to tell people that, and hope that it is sort of over looked. I'm keener on fashion now than I was in my 30's and wear the same as much younger women because I'm fortunate enough to be fairly fit and slender ( though it is hard work) I get a lot of inspiration from Instagram and Ticketyboo and Cathierae are my inspiration - not because I want to copy what they wear but the attitude they have.
I shall be giving up my job to do other things this summer and I will be spending a fair bit of time making some interesting clothes and jewellery as well as buying new things. God forbid I ever enter the twilight zone in a sartorial sense.
If you want to see real ageism on MN it is on those threads where a new mother is saying she doesn't think her parents or in laws are up to having the child to stay or for baby sitting because of their advanced age, which is usually below state retirement age. Yes, age is just a number. I have a friend who is was 81 thin year, still running their own business and thinking of setting up a new branch this year. Once you give up you have lost it.

Such an interesting topic.

I don't know what the average age of site users is but bearing in mind the general gist seems to be help with becoming a parent and parenting children, it would be logical to assume that women in their twenties, thirties and increasingly forties make up the majority. At some point during these decades (and its different for everyone and sadly people are getting more paranoid younger), you do indeed have to come to terms with the fact you are ageing but it's difficult for some people and they come here for advice on how to 'stave it off' for as long as possible. I think many of the more 'f*ck it' camp are already a bit older and know that ultimately you need to embrace ageing, and for the good things it brings as well as the bad.

But during these child rearing years, many women also suffer a crisis of confidence and want to be given advice on how they can look on trend and 'fit in'. I also think there is a fair proportion of women on here who lead very conventional lifestyles (get engaged late twenties, wedding around 30, first kid 32, second kid sometime after that). They are specifically looking for advice on how they can follow the crowd, they don't want to be known as that woman with the unusual outfits. They don't want to stand out, they want to fit in. These days they are told to get jumpsuits or midi dresses. They actually might not even have much of an interest in style and beauty but come here to get advice. I like the way there is room for everyone and you can take or leave the advice given.

Then the menopausal lot often feel the same.

Although ageing in itself isn't inherently all bad, it isn't great either. Particularly after 40 you need to be quite diligent about keeping fit and healthy, not gaining loads of weight, not becoming sedentary. Not feeling good about yourself often leads to not being healthy. Personally I think the more people can do to keep a young approach and an interest in keeping 'young' the better. I always think of the marathon time term 'good for age' which I personally try to aspire to.

Problem with ageing is that it's all relative and we have people of all different ages here. I work with a 32 year old who was talking about how her mum didn't seem old 'even though she was 55'. From my standpoint 55 is NOT old but from hers it is.

I am currently grappling with the fact that the current trends do not really suit me and I'm better off in fitted clothes and skinny jeans. These make me look put together, more elegant, and slim but yes older. It strikes me that I finally need to prioritise style over fashion. Oftentimes on these boards it's the other way round.

I feel strongly about hair and age because there's this mad expectation that once you pass a certain age you have to cut your hair off. I've never seen anyone look younger with shorter hair, and I hate the idea that you're not supposed to have any hair when you're over 45 or whatever.

I see it more with clothing, but honestly who can blame women for feeling conflicted about what they 'can' and 'cannot' wear, given that we're bombarded with such shit messaging about what is 'appropriate' for women.

@Straussful. You say lines etc are inevitable evidence of having had a life..

But that's your daughters dilemma - they aren't inevitable anymore. They have choices that we didn't. They can start getting Botox in their 20s and with that and an SPF50, maybe some gentle fillers and a couple of thread lifts and they could live to 70 with perfectly smooth faces. You only need look at Madonna/Amanda Holden/Jennifer Anniston et al to see the evidence of that.

Whether they will look better for those interventions is another question entirely. But the inevitability of wrinkles is not a fact for young women nowadays.

@Floisme

I think there's more than one thing going on.

We've got the casual ageism where 'old lady' and 'granny' are used as synonyms for ugly or unstylish. I'd say they usually get challenged - sometimes they take the point and sometimes not.

But we've also got posters trying to get to grips with changing looks and bodies, whose favourite clothes suddenly don't look the same any more, who've lost all their confidence and for whom, 'Wear what you like' is, quite frankly, not helpful. I sometimes get the feeling that younger posters don't want to hear it but it's real and we need to be able to talk about it on here.

And speaking of not helpful, I think there's a lot of denial on here too. That whole 'age is a state of mind' thing. Give Over, It's real and, at 65, I feel very much in the foothills. Quite a lot of friends my age have painful, debilitating health conditions that might not be terminal but they're not curable either or sometimes not even treatable, and while I didn't see that thread, yes they would struggle with a sofa bed.

I'd agree with this.

There absolutely is ageism towards certain brands, certain styles etc. And it veers into a territory that's less "those shoes are frumpy" (whatever that means- and I'd also venture that one person's "frumpy" is someone else's "cutting edge fashion") and more a very unpleasant "that perfume smells like old women". Inexcusable, offensive, and unfortunately rife on here.

With the other stuff- people wanting a skincare routine or wanting to buy some new clothes, there's less ageism I find.

What I find problematic with this subject is not how society and culture affect us (we seem to becoming more and more aware of that!), but how we perceive and accept ageing in general.

I have (coincidentally) been watching a few documentaries about super-centeganarians and gerontology, spread over different cultures, and came to the conclusion that our perception of ageing in the west is quite depressing and diabolical - and this sits uncomfortably and oddly beside our belief that we are living longer and better.

I saw these rather old people in Japan (okinawa) living a great life, with less ageing related issues such as dementia and heart issues, barely any weight problems, and yet still they plodded slowly and were wrinkled, etc. Their power lay in their sense of usefulness, giving in to small pleasures, and NOT perceiving themselves as 'used up' or irrelevant. They enjoyed growing food, celebrating their age, and finding what their passions were whilst taking it easy.

Our collective drive in the west for things over experience, and for beauty over health seems to go against us imo. We approach ageing with terror and defiance, rather than looking for its merits, wisdom and pleasures. Whilst we see it this way, none of us are going to have great attitudes towards it, as perpetuate a negative (and often ONLY negative) view of it.

I'd say this connects to S&B here on MN because it is about attitude, to me. I think that our perceptions and beliefs are everything, and it's worth rooting them out and having a look at them. What lies behind most of the reticence to accept age is fear, and i believe that our terror of it in the west is making our own old age depressing and bitter. How we clothe ourselves is both an intimate and social consideration. It can amplify how good/bad we feel about ourselves at any life stage. So i do think it is important to consider this, not just in terms of a patriarchy, but how we fail to challenge our attitudes towards it inside ourselves.

I am 48, and i look ahead and wish to see myself swishing around (albeit slower) in silk, enjoying long, long hours at my easels working on new paintings. I would like a nicer environment, and a modest yet meaningful circle of close friends. I see delicious teas, amusing cats and perhaps i would push myself to get back to learning the piano.
What I dread most is watching more war, climate damage and obsessions with capital over meaningful experience.

I hope this didnt bore anyone, lol, but I do think we need to examine our thoughts about it all. It's broader than just clothing, but it is from the same root.

@WeirdArchitecture I agree with so much of your post. I find the negative attitude to ageing some people have is so depressing.

That some people’s response to turning 40/50/whatever is not ‘I’m thankful I’m still alive, I’m going to own my experiences and accumulated wisdom’ but instead is ‘my face and body look different to how they used to - I must spend time, money and effort trying to look younger’.

Also as someone once said “Old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternative”

I am also probably an outlier with regards to cosmetic alterations, too.
When I see other people, older people, I never register how 'well' they are ageing in relation to their face or clothes.

I used to live in a depressed town, and after having been away from it for over 8 years I returned to visit and old friend. What hit me immediately as I walked into the town after getting off the train was how utterly fed up, hunched and tired people looked. Not how thy were ageing, but how regardless of age they looked grey, displaced, and very, very unhappy.

This is how I personally view ageing, that a face full of wrinkles and a loose jawline is irrelevant if one is fulfilled and has spirit.
I have no issue with cosmetic procedures in the sense that we can all enjoy modifying our bodies as we see fit, but when it is an effort to avoid the acceptance of ageing it doesn't interest me. I'd like to keep that awareness as I age myself, and be mindful of 'why' I may want to alter myself.

Old age is a life stage, and what's more, it is as valid and enriching as any other. Who the hell told us it was to be 'better than the alternative'?
It doesn't need an alternative! It is what it is, and we either get to know who we are and accept it or challenge the beliefs we have about it.

(this isnt a pop at the pp who answered my post! Im just generalising, we both agree!)

I will plop this link here to a documentary about a man who set off to explore ageing and interviewed many centenarians. It is also interesting how many of those listed on wikipedia as living to over 100 were creative people, or those who truly followed a passion (activists, olympians, writer's, painters, musicians, etc). And yet our culture warms us from such paths as they won't ensure us a mortgage. It truly depends upon what we value.
On the shit side, i do think poverty can scupper any healthy segue into old age, and add that to the west's obsession with status and property, it's a slippery slope.
I would love to bugger off to Okinawa on my 70th!

Documentary link (it is US, and long, but fascinating in many parts!)

‘Frumpy’
‘Mumsie’
‘Grandma-ish’

Are all words l see on here. I was told that a bog standard hoodie with kangaroo pockets was ‘mumsie!’

I’m 58 and wear dungarees and have silver hair. I don’t give a shiny shite what anyone thinks. Certainly not some judgemental person 30 years younger than me.