Strange ideas about age, ageism on S&B.

[Pangolin44]

A bit of a mangled thread title, but I'm always slightly agog when it comes to age on this board.

So many 'Can I wear X at Y age?' threads. So many comments about 'age-appropriate' attire. Mutton-dressed-as-lamb always rears its head. Granny shoes, frumpy coats, 'I'm 35 am I too old for mini-skirts?'.

And don't get me started on hair! Bejeysus.

And this is women, talking to other women.

It makes me sad more than anything else, people are obviously posting on this board because they're interested in clothes and style, why close off any area of style because of age? The thought that women think they can't express themselves physically due to an imagined arbitrary cut-off.

I would love to free women from this idea, what's the worst that can happen?

I think what i am trying to say, if you will excuse my typos (!), is that if we are in an environment that appreciates and enjoys age, we might view botox very differently. I do consider most of this to be belief and attitude dependent. It's just worth being aware.
I consider ageing as the potential to 'do what pleases me', whilst still being mindful of others. It's a time to reflect and take care, and perhaps to realign with simple pleasures that youth is too busy for. But also to keep mentally inspired, with art, nature, stuff that fulfils.
Tbh, viewing people exhaustedly running in the rat race and fighting against time makes the whole idea look like an exciting, blissful alternative.

But don't, for god's sake, judge your body or clothes against that monolith of negativity. Treat the body, come to know what makes you feel good when wearing it, and enjoy.

But that's your daughters dilemma - they aren't inevitable anymore. They have choices that we didn't. They can start getting Botox in their 20s and with that and an SPF50, maybe some gentle fillers and a couple of thread lifts and they could live to 70 with perfectly smooth faces. You only need look at Madonna/Amanda Holden/Jennifer Anniston et al to see the evidence of that.

Whether they will look better for those interventions is another question entirely. But the inevitability of wrinkles is not a fact for young women nowadays.

It's the sign of a decadent, superficial society imo. It's not only that the relentless pursuit of youth and beauty is so awful, it's how deluded people are about these procedures making them look younger or better. Madonna looks like an alien. What on earth is the point of spending shedloads of money on getting a (weirdly) smooth face if the unnatural look of it, plus the rest of your body, make it perfectly clear that you're not as young as you believe you appear? I don't blame women for feeling they need to have these things done, I blame the forces in society that push them into it.

I think a lot of this is driven by things like TV - 'granny' is the one with the shampoo and set, glasses, pinny etc. Stereotypes which are 30 years out of date, but the script writers are mostly older men, and to them, that was a granny!
The clothes and hair that I have now at 50 aren't things that my Mum would have ever worn at 50, but she came from a totally different generation as she had me in her late 30s. People are surprised when I tell them my age, not because I have great skin or whatever, but because I don't dress like what they think a 50 year old dresses like.

[quote CowboyFromHell]@WeirdArchitecture I agree with so much of your post. I find the negative attitude to ageing some people have is so depressing.

That some people’s response to turning 40/50/whatever is not ‘I’m thankful I’m still alive, I’m going to own my experiences and accumulated wisdom’ but instead is ‘my face and body look different to how they used to - I must spend time, money and effort trying to look younger’.

Also as someone once said “Old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternative”[/quote]
I love being in my 50s. I wouldn't be younger if I could. I like this stage of life and very much like who I am now. This doesn't stop me disliking some aspects of my face and body, and to want to spend time and money on improving them. My appearance is just one part of me, and it's quite possible for me to be very confident in myself, which I am, and happy with everything but this one aspect of my life. So if I can improve it, why not? It's not even a huge deal, but it adds a little more pleasure to my life to have a nicer looking face and body.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

‘Frumpy’ ‘Mumsie’ ‘Grandma-ish’

Are all words l see on here. I was told that a bog standard hoodie with kangaroo pockets was ‘mumsie!’

I’m 58 and wear dungarees and have silver hair. I don’t give a shiny shite what anyone thinks. Certainly not some judgemental person 30 years younger than me.

But I think if you ask on style & beauty then it’s pretty obvious the person does give a ‘shiny shite’ what people think. If you don’t then that’s amazing - I personally don’t! But if someone posts on S&B asking what people think obviously they do care. So then that’s why they’ll get some negative responses. It’s not always age based, sometimes someone might say that’s dated/fussy etc.

I think it's gotten worse since lockdown.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

‘Frumpy’ ‘Mumsie’ ‘Grandma-ish’

Are all words l see on here. I was told that a bog standard hoodie with kangaroo pockets was ‘mumsie!’

I’m 58 and wear dungarees and have silver hair. I don’t give a shiny shite what anyone thinks. Certainly not some judgemental person 30 years younger than me.

Thing is on mumsnet that there are certain posters who will make this kind of comment simply to get a rise or be spiteful. It's unlikely they are even that into fashion or particularly stylish themselves but have some kind of strange enjoyment of putting people down in such a way that they think will be perceived as offensive. You start to recognise certain posters that do this all the time, often name change but the posting style is the same. All they post on S&B is this kind of comment and never contribute anything meaningful or interesting.

As in posting 'frumpy' 'mumsy' etc

Good posts @WeirdArchitecture

@Jonsnowsghost - another mini skirt lover here!
I've posted recently about what to wear whilst visiting the UK and was firmly told that a mini skirt will make me stand out I find the style and beauty board pretty confusing at times!

It’s not always age based, sometimes someone might say that’s dated/fussy etc.

It’s usually age based. And more offensive than ‘fussy’ or ‘dated’. The implication that ‘older’ women don’t have style. Misogynistic in fact.

There's a REAL problem with the Madonnas and JA's going all out for botox, face lifts etc. they certainly don't look younger (well maybe they do if your definition of youth is to look like a Rupaul or any of his charming gang ) . For all the money in the world I would hate to look in the mirror and not recognise myself!!!!!

I consider ageing as the potential to 'do what pleases me', whilst still being mindful of others. It's a time to reflect and take care, and perhaps to realign with simple pleasures that youth is too busy for. But also to keep mentally inspired, with art, nature, stuff that fulfils.

That sounds lovely and chilled WeirdArchitecture and I've really enjoyed your posts. It's interesting though because I'm coming up to retirement and I've noticed how the first question everyone asks me is, 'What are you going to DO?' And by 'do' they don't mean paint or sew or read all the books you never got round to reading, they mean, 'Are you going to listen to children read, or work in an Oxfam shop or be a charity trustee?' Now I most likely will do something similar because I think retaining some structure or responsibility in my life will probably be good for me. The point is that, if I answered, 'Nah, I'm going to sit in the sun and read all day' eyebrows would be raised.

So it feels like even in retirement, you're expected to stay in the rat race. I may be wrong but I don't remember this level of expectation when colleagues retired 20 or even 10 years ago - as I recall, it was all about, 'Put your feet up, you've earned it.'

Floisme We have the English govt and the fight against ageism, also the deification of 'work' to blame for that attitude!

I deliberately didn't join the rat race when I was younger esp. when the dcs were small. It was nice to have the option, so I don't really feel that I've retired even though I have and DO put my feet up when I want to! I would put 2 fingers up to anyone who asked me what I'm doing!

Yes true, but it is funny how when we're 'young' we don't ever think we'll grow old! Dh and I were agreeing on that recently.

The post about lovely teenage girls feeling the need to 'beautify' themselves artificially is really, really sad.

I'm old (70s); when we were young, it was the trend NOT to engage with the "stuffy rigid consumerist conformist" beauty industry. We grew our hair wild and unkempt. We wore very little makeup - except perhaps khol around the eyes. We did not shave legs or anything else. We were scruffy, but we were ourselves. And boyfriends in those days were very happy to fall in love with us.... Sex and love and rock and roll is a phrase that originates from that time.

I 100% agree that the quest to have a plastic 'done' face looks ridiculous. On everyone. What's actually wrong with wrinkles? Who says? On what authority? I'm horrified at all the 'beauty' threads here where people spend a fortune on messing with products for their face, and then even more on putting right the damage some of those products and/or tanbeds etc have done. One of the people with the best skin I know is a doctor. Decades ago, she said to me : the best thing is just to wash your face with tepid water, and then apply a good moisturiser. She's now nearly 70 and she still has very, very good skin.

RE clothes, this is an extreme example but I hope it makes my point. I've been in the garden all day cutting back brambles. I'm wearing an old Regatta waterproof - because it's thornproof as well; cheapo woollen gloves, M and S thick winter jeggings (a size larger, because that gives lots of room to be active) and a very old plain long-sleeve black teeshirt (Lands End). There are huge wet muddy patches around my knees, and my socks (men's, bamboo, mid-calf) and my hair (still unkempt, if silver) are stuck with twigs and bramble thorns. But I'm dressed APPROPRIATELY. And that is surely what matters for any of us, at any age. Dress for the lives we live and for what makes us comfortable, not how some commercial influencers and advertisers and peddlers of cheap tat try to persuade us by making us feel insecure.

I agree that Wierd makes some very good points.

I haven't much to add to this thread as I am reading it and nodding along to the great majority of the intelligently written posts. But, oh, I am so glad it was started.

(I'm 6 months older than Madonna and don't look in the least bit like her! Thank goodness)

@FuzzyPuffling

In fairness, Madonna doesn’t look much like Madonna either.

[quote Kanaloa]@FuzzyPuffling

In fairness, Madonna doesn’t look much like Madonna either.[/quote]
😂😂😂

Yes scottishnames I agree with most of your post. I'm 71 and wasn't a hippy but we had the choice ,that was what most important, most of our mums didn't have that.

You're right about the boys not caring a sxxx for our appearance but when the sexual thrills are over, they do IME! There was also a hell of a lot of entitlement then (on the males' side ). Feminism was quiet then about "Free love" . It wasn't generally "free' on the females' side.

For all the money in the world I would hate to look in the mirror and not recognise myself!!!!!

I'm 63 and I DON'T recognise myself when I look in the mirror! The ageing process has accelerated quite rapidly for me, thanks to cancer medication designed to remove oestrogen. I know I'm lucky I'm still here, and I wish how I look didn't matter but it does.

I think the most helpful thing I have ever heard is the saying that we are a soul attached to a body, not the other way round. That removes the emphasis from the body and puts it where it should be.

I agree that our culture has got ageing horribly wrong and the whole process should be treated with more respect.

I find the opposite on MN: you are not allowed to suggest changing how you dress with age, without people jumping down your throat, and banging on about how they dress the same at 60 as 20. Either all these people live in some town I never visit, or they are talking bollocks, because I never see 60 year old dressed like 20 year olds. Sure, you may still wear a mini-skirt at 60, which people always bang on about, but you don't style it in the same way as you do at 20.

I think this is weird reverse ageism. Why is it wrong to change how you dress, as you age? Our bodies change, so what suits us changes. Plus, I now prioritise comfort over sexy - CBA with heels etc.

I feel that the MN emphasis on age is that you somehow lose any personality as you get older. There's always posts about "what shall I buy my elderly mother for her 60th birthday...?" which elicit responses such as "a nice scarf", "soap", "some tea" and bear little resemblance to so many people's experience of 60. Same with fashion. When you're 25 the idea of being 60 (plus) and still being interested in style is quite incomprehensible.

I have repeatedly exhausted myself in ranting against the offer of ‘nice-ness’ for any female birthday after 49. It is really extraordinary.

I find the opposite on MN: you are not allowed to suggest changing how you dress with age, without people jumping down your throat, and banging on about how they dress the same at 60 as 20.

This is interesting. But I don’t generally see people saying “I’ve decided that now I’m 60 I will wear nothing but cashmere tracksuits, because that’s what suits my life and tastes and finally I can afford it.” Instead I see triggeringly panicked entreaties exclaiming “Oh god, I have to meet some people at a pub! I’m 45 - am I too old to wear some completely unexceptionable item of clothing such as jeans or ankle boots or a pink t shirt?”. It’s the latter that feels red rag to a bull to me - some artificially invented constraint, imbibed by everyone without any thought or rationalisation.