Lucy & Yak - what has happened?

[Marsis]

I’ve followed the brand for a while but not actually purchased, trying to work out what has happened with their instagram and the ‘fan groups’ on FB?

@Marsis I think I know the children’s leggings group you’re referring to. I’ve got a few pairs of them, but my god the obsessions with ‘rare’ prints and showing off their whole collection I find very bizarre

Yes, they shouldn't be kicking the ball down the road if they've said they are going to introduce a plus sized line. It still baffles me as to why people have got SO het up about it though when they've only been going for a few years, so surely it takes time to work these things out as they have to wait until it will actually pay them to do so. I know they're supposed to be an ethical company, but they're still a business and they still want to make a profit otherwise what's the point? They aren't going to do it for free, they want to be sure to make money out of it. I think people can get pulled into thinking that a business/brand is their friend, it somehow represents who they are,provides a sense of community, and they lose sight of the fact that the business is in fact somebody's job/workplace/income and they aren't going to make decisions that don't pay

Yes the scandi groups are weird. When I was on maternity leave there was a girl on one who was a single mum with about 7 kids, and she went mad buying up everything she could constantly, then of course took pictures of the children wearing the clothes etc. She was obviously struggling massively with her MH but was egged on by others on the group. It was really worrying to see.

It's interesting to see how these groups become a source of support to some, especially the kid's clothes ones. When I had my eldest (first in my group to have kids) there was nothing like that - you had Mumsnet and Babycentre to go to if you wanted parenting advice, but I've noticed that a lot of people are now making off topic posts looking for advice/chit chat on the buy and sell/brand groups. It's interesting to see how following these often small, niche brands can provide this sense of community/tribe to such a lot of people. On one I'm on, they have key words and phrases you're meant to say to someone if you spot them wearing the brand in "real life". I don't know if it's a goof thing or a bad thing to be honest because on one hand people do get support from these groups, but on the other hand they're still based around a business running for a profit, so when the shit hits the fan like it's done with L&Y you're going to get a lot of people who are way more upset than they should be at a brand FB group imploding.

Sorry that was a massive digression, but I often think someone should do some sort of marketing study on it.

I think a lot of people have lost patience with the long meandering buzzwordy talks to camera Lucy and Chris release whenever they have a drama. I don't think it's so much the fact of the plus size issue that's really got on people's tits this time, it's that when anyone 'calls them out' they cast themselves as persecuted victims rather than either accepting responsibility, or defending their choices with integrity. Honestly either of these responses would make me respect them a lot more than a 17-minute video basically repeating 'people are going around saying things about us... but we can't tell you who or what they are saying, because we really don't want a drama here.'

It's like school.

And the facebook group is a shitshow. The mods were... difficult, and yes I think it's bloody awful they were accepting (and selling on) freebies for being L&Y's running dogs. But on the other hand by forcing them out L&Y have basically acquired a ready-made 14,000-strong fan group that took years of somebody else's free labour to create. It doesn't leave a great taste in my mouth.

Honestly I sound very invested - I'm not. It's more that I've found the behaviour of the brand and its founders to be quite distasteful and weird for a while, and I'm almost relieved to feel vindicated. I was just in it for the dungarees, I am not really interested in engaging in this kind of thing.

@ReallySpicyCurry

Yes the scandi groups are weird. When I was on maternity leave there was a girl on one who was a single mum with about 7 kids, and she went mad buying up everything she could constantly, then of course took pictures of the children wearing the clothes etc. She was obviously struggling massively with her MH but was egged on by others on the group. It was really worrying to see.

It's interesting to see how these groups become a source of support to some, especially the kid's clothes ones. When I had my eldest (first in my group to have kids) there was nothing like that - you had Mumsnet and Babycentre to go to if you wanted parenting advice, but I've noticed that a lot of people are now making off topic posts looking for advice/chit chat on the buy and sell/brand groups. It's interesting to see how following these often small, niche brands can provide this sense of community/tribe to such a lot of people. On one I'm on, they have key words and phrases you're meant to say to someone if you spot them wearing the brand in "real life". I don't know if it's a goof thing or a bad thing to be honest because on one hand people do get support from these groups, but on the other hand they're still based around a business running for a profit, so when the shit hits the fan like it's done with L&Y you're going to get a lot of people who are way more upset than they should be at a brand FB group imploding.

Sorry that was a massive digression, but I often think someone should do some sort of marketing study on it.

No I agree and some of the groups the ones attached to businesses not re-selling groups basics egg on some of these vulnerable people by incentivising the posting of purchases, ‘stash shots’ etc, but also some begging, hinting and sob stories too. I also agree regarding the research it’s such a weird thing that seems to happen in FB groups.

They say on insta they cannot discuss how they have taken over the group as all parties came to an agreement, I wonder if they did pay her. And fair enough really, they allowed it all to continue in their name and only took action when called out even though people have been complaining for years, as you say the time that has gone into creating the following etc shouldn't just be demanded. If I was the admin I'd have just deleted the group to be honest, but I wonder if because she accepted vouchers etc she was in some kind of Collab anyway. All speculation.

Yes I am very bored to have been following the 'drama' hah.

Didn't see directly the drama as do have a pair of Lucy and yak dungarees but don't follow them on social media and not a member of any of the groups.
However did see it through another company I follow that was mentioned as being more size inclusive but they make bespoke items so can be rather than a company that maybe can't afford to extend their size range for the small amount of people that are above a size 22. There were also questions about if Lucy and yak are sustainable as they claim. I don't think any brand if perfect but there seems to be a culture of calling out people that have done anything somebody thinks is wrong.

I am a member of some frugi groups and the amount some people spend is obscene and the amount of better hide this from.my husband post are worrying. Had to unfollow the group when they have a warehouse sale because of the amount of bitching about not got a ticket, live to car away, why can't I get cheap frugi.

Frugi Family, Essexgirl?

I joined just as they launched that naff Frugi Fun programme. Basically rewarding people with a naff coin purse or wallet for producing and sharing dozens of pictures of their dc wearing the brand. People tripping over themselves to share pictures of their kids with total strangers without thinking that the T&Cs of the programme meant that Frugi then owned the pictures and could use them for very cheap advertising.

I like these brands‘ goods but I think you’d be kidding yourself to think that their priority isn’t to make a healthy profit, like a lot of the people that contribute to these groups do.

Having followed it all, I think that L&Y made a complete mess of things and that the person who raised the issue in the first place was treated terribly by their fans. At the same time am echoing many others here who find some of the people on these fan groups on FB obsessive and really into drama and making these brands their life. I'm on the children's leggings one as well and I think so many of them facilitate really unhealthy behaviour and shocking spending where people can't afford stuff. I find it really uncomfortable when people are selling massive amounts of clothes/toys to fund a bill that's come in because they seem caught in this culture of consumption and having to buy stuff because they're a superfan of a brand. I'm not surprised re: behaviour on the L&Y group.

I definitely think the brand/shop official affiliated groups on FB should be treated and advertising and have to #ad posts or be clear if gifted items are being used or shown by contributors. I think the casual and friendly nature of the groups makes people forget that the purpose of the groups is to essentially get more sales.

It’s become a bit of a thing to hound small companies for not being ethical enough. There was another one a few months ago where a company was hounded to closure by someone demanding they make size 24. Another purity spiral!

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s an MO for some people who aren’t in the best of mental health.

The journalist in question who kicked off the row is a fucking nightmare. She’s so right about everything she says but social media does her no favours. She posted a while back about sequins and glitter and how awful they are for the environment and how they have no place in fashion (which she’s entirely right about) but when a PhD student raised a question about her source for a claim about plastics being present in the gut she flew off her handle and absolutely piled on the questioner. I had to unfollow as it was so cringey.

@Dmtush

The journalist in question who kicked off the row is a fucking nightmare. She’s so right about everything she says but social media does her no favours. She posted a while back about sequins and glitter and how awful they are for the environment and how they have no place in fashion (which she’s entirely right about) but when a PhD student raised a question about her source for a claim about plastics being present in the gut she flew off her handle and absolutely piled on the questioner. I had to unfollow as it was so cringey.

Yes, the journalist/style consultant who started this is not entirely blame free here. She has a very aggressive, defensive style on insta, shuts down any criticism or debate on the grounds she doesn't give free advice, or the poster is racist. Or both. She claims to not want to cancel L&Y, or cause a boycott, yet has persisted in posting, doing lives and engaging in comments constantly for nearly two weeks now. It certainly feels like a witch hunt to me, whatever L&Y have also done.

It's a real shame, because as Dmtush says, she is absolutely spot on in the issues she raises, and is obviously really well informed and experienced.

I came across this and was bewildered so thanks for explaining it.

I've never really understood the Lucy & Yak love on here - they are aren't my style and they are just a pair of dungarees??? So learning that companies encourage forums and Facebook groups is completely new to me.

Unfortunately if you are in an ethical and sustainable business, this is ripe for being problematic, or descending into a purity spiral, as however ethical you are, you do want people to buy more dungarees, likely more dungarees than they actually need.

It seems a lot like the knitting wars over which knitting business was the most woke that played out last year.

I've been following it with interest too. I actually started buying Lucy & Yak sometime in 2018 long before I knew there was any "fan following". I just genuinely like the clothes although mostly the plain cord dungarees and twill trousers, not the prints. And would never buy the crazy prices on eBay for the second hand ones that seem to be sold in questionable condition by teenagers.

The whole size inclusivity thing baffles me tbh as they are a business, not a council service that needs to be inclusive and cater for everyone equally... And the irony is they have just started working with a plus size fashion consultant on sizing so the original claims by this other fashion consultant seemed to stem from envy that she wasn't the chosen one. As for "emotional labour" and paying her - that's not how charging for your time and knowledge works in the freelance world - she should have told them her fees to begin with but it sounds like she was the one offering her opinion from the start.

I read the groups sometimes and the claims that have been made are so confusing to me, I've never seen any bullying or fatphobia. If anything it's the opposite - women wearing something that's clearly 2 sizes too small are eagerly being told by others who amazing they look in their selfies. Makes you wonder why the group founder's "emotional labour" doesn't matter though? She comes across as very vulnerable to me...

The emotional labour bit confuses me a bit as well. I’m freelance and I do have boundaries around scope creep but if I decide to make a speculative pitch to a business, that’s on me. I’m usually glad they were willing to at least have the conversation and it puts me on their radar. Likewise when I’m invited to pitch for a contract, I don’t expect that I will be paid for it. I believe pearls of wisdom fall constantly from my lips 🤣, but I think it’s a mistake to refuse to engage with reasonable queries on the basis that no one gets a question answered unless they pay.

@breadwidow

Thanks for this thread - very useful. I joined the FB they took over a couple of months back just as way to find a pair of limited editions no longer sold via the website. I didn't even own any L&Y clothing at the time. I have since given up on finding the limited editions and bought a pair of eastons via the group just cos they were cheaper. They are too big and I'll need to sell on. Just went on the group to post them and saw all these posts. Think I may sell elsewhere. I don't want to be involved in all that hassle

To be honest I don't get this insistence on going up to massive sizes. Size inclusivity can go too far, tantamount to encouraging being dangerously overweight

How would making larger sizes encourage someone to be dangerously overweight? I can't imagine many people would think hooray I'm a size 24, now I can buy a pair of L&Y plus sized dungarees. Larger sizes ensure that if you are that size, you can have a bit of choice in clothing that you can buy and wear. That doesn't encourage people to be overweight, it just means they have something to wear.

This is a fascinating thread - I have a lot of Lucy and Yak but I just order it and wear it. Had no idea there was a fandom around it. Rather puts me off Buying more stuff from them in case someone thinks I’ma super fan! Perhaps this is what will push me over to Community Clothing which I also like but usually gets pipped by something from Lucy and Yak.

How would making larger sizes encourage someone to be dangerously overweight? I can't imagine many people would think hooray I'm a size 24, now I can buy a pair of L&Y plus sized dungarees. Larger sizes ensure that if you are that size, you can have a bit of choice in clothing that you can buy and wear. That doesn't encourage people to be overweight, it just means they have something to wear.

Couldn’t agree with this more. I detest the view that I sometimes read on here that nice clothing shouldn’t be made in bigger sizes as it promotes obesity. While I don’t think any business needs to try and cater for everyone - and in fact from a marketing perspective that’s problematic - but I DO believe that everyone should be able to find clothes they enjoy wearing at whatever size they are. It’s ok to feel good about oneself without having to fit into ‘straight’ sizes.

How would making larger sizes encourage someone to be dangerously overweight? I can't imagine many people would think hooray I'm a size 24, now I can buy a pair of L&Y plus sized dungarees. Larger sizes ensure that if you are that size, you can have a bit of choice in clothing that you can buy and wear. That doesn't encourage people to be overweight, it just means they have something to wear.

Got to agree with this. If a lack of nice plus-sized clothing was enough to prevent obesity, we'd all be slim as fuck already. Outside sequinned kittens T-shirts, leggings, and print kaftans, it's already a clothing desert.

I watched the videos by Lucy and Chris and read through some of their replies to comments on Insta and wow, they really don’t come out of this well. He in particular seems to be inwardly seething and very aggressive, I can imagine the off-camera conversations, they obviously feel victimised.

The plus-size issue is less important for me. Yes it’s crap of them as a company to keep promising and stringing people along if they had no intention of increasing the size range, but as a company they are entitled to have a cut-off wherever they choose. People will look elsewhere for larger sizes and it’s up to L&Y to decide whether they’re willing to risk the lost custom vs the money it would cost to manufacture more.

I’m more concerned about them taking over the group in question. It’s just really shady. They’re gaining a massive ready-made group of fans to advertise to and leaving it up to people to opt out. They should start a group from scratch and let people choose to join if they wish. They have been giving the moderators vouchers and up until now it has not been declared, that shows real contempt for the fans on that group. The moderators have been buying limited edition dungarees (with vouchers, with even earlier access than the group?) then selling them on. It is so unethical for L&Y as a business to be associated with that.

People have apparently complained to them about the behaviour of the moderators but they are taking two of them on as employees - how can they claim to be against bullying when they are going to be working with them? They have commented again and again trying to justify their decision but I think it stinks.

As a customer I was completely befuddled when I got the email. I think the owners need to decide if they are a business or a community service.
I was confused about the plus size stuff as they already seemed to be doing something in that area. Plus size designing is not about making the same items a big bigger. It's a niche fashion in itself and needs commitment and expertise to get right.
I'm a bit put off them by this whole dirty laundry airing.

Completely not the point but can anyone tell me what the childrens leggings brand is? By message if necessary. My son is so tall and skinny only leggings really work for him currently, but it's so hard to find boys/unisex leggings now he's out of "baby" sizes.

FWIW I agree about the cult like nature of some brands. I just don't get it. My son wears some scandi brands because they fit him better, I'm on a couple of the group's for the second hand sales but jeez, you have pictures of people posting their "stash" and I swear there's enough there to pay my rent for a year. Companies who offer payment plans don't help and the "drop day" hysteria is just crazy.

Yeah I reckon they paid off the group owner as they've said repeatedly that they cannot discuss it due to an agreement made with them all, which if she is as people have said, is not great. They should have drawn a line, cut all ties with that group and started a new one.