Mutton

[NigellasGuest]

Following recent posts I've noticed on the S&B board, I would really love to know what is mutton dressed as lamb? As in, can anyone actually define it or post a picture of someone who is mutton dressed as lamb? To my mind it doesn't actually exist, and is just another way of saying "badly dressed". People seem to use it as in, I need an outfit but I don't want to look like MDAL but what do they REALLY mean by this? if a dress doesnt look right on you then to my mind it's because it's too short or too long for your proportions or you have the wrong shoes with it, or another reason like that. This mutton thing is just lazy talk I think.

I'm getting on in years - in my 50s - and if I get dressed and don't like what I see, I don't think I look like MDAL. I just think I'm badly dressed.

Less convincing here - perhaps...

s3.viva.pl/newsy/brigitte-trogneux-mt-418511-GALLERY_BIG.jpg

I get that when we have derogatory phrases about women’s looks (MDAL) especially in regard to age it demands a feminist response. And I’m all up for questioning / casting a critical eye over expectations for women. I wouldn’t use the phrase myself (perhaps under my breath about my own choices, but not others) - it’s a bit dated - and yes as it applies only to women it is sexist.

However, that doesn’t mean that the concept that we can dress ‘too young’ is redundant. This isn’t about women - it applies equally to men and there have been plenty of examples on this thread. The middle-aged man dressing like a teenager is equally derided as ‘sad’ and ‘trying too hard’. For the poster asking whether men get derided for wearing shorts - come off it - most men’s shorts reach their knees and no woman would be derided for that either. If older men walked about in skimpy ones that showed their arse, people would probably call the police.

I also hope that I have got more confident in my clothes and style as I’ve got older, but that doesn’t mean (as one poster claimed) I looked a mess as a teenager - ageism only works one way, does it? When DD and her friend go out they often wear short skater skirts, high waisted shorts or leggings and crop tops - paired with trainers. They look great. It’s on trend and they look like young girls and feel comfortable in what they are wearing. However a 55-year old, imo, would be unlikely to look so fabulous. There may be the odd exception to the rule, of course - my 55-year-old yoga instructor friend looks gorgeous in everything.

Whilst obviously everyone can wear whatever they like, and if you are comfortable and happy that’s all that matters...nobody is stopping you or advocating that you should be stopped. But you do realise this is the “Style and Beauty” board, right? People ask about whether or not things look ‘good’. It’s subjective, but asking about style and beauty sort of puts it out there for an opinion. Otherwise the board is a bit redundant, no?

What should I wear to this wedding? Wear what you like, nobody has the right to criticise or judge you, as long as you feel comfortable...

What should I wear with this top? Wear what you like, nobody has the right to criticise or judge you, as long as you feel comfortable... l

Do these shoes go with this dress? Wear what you like, nobody has the right to criticise or judge you, as long as you feel comfortable...

Bugger - that was long - better get on with some work.

Late to this thread but the picture of Lizzy Cundy, well even someone who was aged 20 would look awful in it even with a slim toned body it just screams cheap and tacky on anyone, so in that respect I can see what OP means about no such thing as that awful phrase MDAL just badly dressed women. However there are certain styles which just suits a young person more, take for example this picture of Amal, the dress is perfectly lovely but should be on a teenager not a sophisticated woman in her 40’s, it just looks wrong. For balance see the picture of Brad Pitt who looks like a 90’s boy band wannabe, again it just looks wrong. however I think the amount of threads on here which say “am I too old at 35 for” (insert innocuous, bland garment that would suit anyone of any age) are a bit much, they are so disappointing when you click on the picture hoping to see a hot pants and bra top combo and it turns out to be something Mary Berry would rock.

I was querying the quote about "HOC approved age-appropriate clothes."

Fair enough (and frankly you do have awesome legs). I do dislike the whole HOC concept of 'flattering' though because I dislike the emphasis on being a thing for people to look at. Fashion on the other hand invites people to look at you and judge your taste, the emphasis is on your brain and your ability to follow part of culture.

What is HOC please? I am sure it is blindingly obvious but all I can think of is House of Commons....

It's house of colour.

Yes I agree @CountFosco - my sister did HOC and seems to be surgically attached to all things fuschia. I took it with a pinch of salt when the lady said I was a winter, and I happily wear warmer tones when I want to. I went for a style consultation really though, because I felt a bit lost, and I found it helpful regarding focusing my style. That was about 5 years ago now. I feel I've really some into my own style wise in my 50's believe it or not. I wish I'd had the nous and the wherewithal when I was in my 20's, but better late the never, and I'm really enjoying fashion these days.

Thank you for the leg comment.
I'm sorry this thread has gone a bit fractious. If anyone looks at my OP again I was only wanting to find another term for MDAL.

I'm 38 and wear whatever the fuck I like. Pretty sure I still will be wearing whatever the fuck I like in 20 years time

Twatty. Nobody is saying you can’t wear what you like. Everybody can wear what they like. The thread subject is what is mutton and how people may perceive other people’s clothes choices who wear clothes that are not quite right for the stage of life they are in. But people thinking you might be wearing clothes too young for you does not stop you wearing them. But “mutton” is a thing, but it can of course be ignored by the wearer. Yes it is judgey, but we make judgements all the time about everything. Everybody does.

TimeforTea99 the thread is about the fact that MDAL is a sexist and ageist phrase that is offensive and should not be used any longer. Women shouldn't be posting messages on here saying Am I too old for this jacket and then linking to a completely normal jacket. But they do because of all the PA 'well you can wear what you want but people will judge' comment some of the PPs have come up with here and the Daily Fail's sidebar of shame and all the other comments we hear all the time reminding us that whatever steps forward feminism makes we must remember, even if you are PM you will be judged first and foremost on your appearance.

The conversation also went on to debate whether there ever was an age where some clothes looked a little off kilter due to the age of the wearer. With some denying there was no age where clothes looked wrong and others like me who think that there are clothes that do not look right as time goes by, although luckily we now live in a time where there are not that many pieces of clothing which fall into the latter category. I too am perplexed when I open up a thread and see normal clothes (hoodies?) subject to an age barrier.

And as the thread demonstrated, men are not immune to looking mutton either.

And what does it matter what people think of you. You can’t hear people’s thoughts so if you want to wear something, wear it. But you can’t stop somebody else thinking you might look a bit daft. People vocalising it is another matter. Being judged yourself and judging other people is a fact of life. Everybody does it to some degree. I don’t believe that nobody goes around not making any judgements of any kind.

The phrase might be unpalatable to some, but I just see it as a shorthand for saying that X is really Y but trying to appear X. And whilst the meat in question is female, for me that is irrelevant. It is usable for Male and female.

Actually the meat will be male (females are kept for breeding) but the phrase refers only to women.

I use it as a shorthand for both. Not spoken, just a fleeting thought. I use it about myself. Try something on, nope, looks mutton, or borderline mutton. Sometimes I buy the latter because I like it. I know I wouldn’t wear the former.

I figured it was much more about body type, fitness level, and overall vibe. Some people are eternally ingenue at forty five. Other ppl overweight and prematurely overweight and wrinkly at twenty eight. Still twattish and judgemental

I use it about myself

So you insult your own appearance? That would be internalised misogyny. And you may use it about men but there's no dictionary definition that says it applies to men.

I think BM looks great for her age and I love her clothes. She is tiny and slim with good legs and can wear what she wants. Good luck to her

The only time I've heard meat being used to describe men is the term 'gammon', describing a balding, red faced, bit racist Brexit supporter type!

Yes, I do use it about myself but it is not an insult to me when I do it. It is realism. In much the same way that I think these trousers are too long, I would say this outfit is mutton on me. I am a very confident person. I don’t collapse in a heap. I take a realistic view of my body shape and age, try to play to my strengths. I would not feel comfortably wearing something I thought made me look muttony. No shop is out of bounds to me though. I think you can find clothes to suit in most stores even if their core customer might be a lot younger than me. So for instance, in H & M I would not buy the jeans with the slashes in the leg but would buy a shirt, top, cropped trouser etc.

I saw a woman I would place in her mid 60s in a very quiet Devon coastal town. Quite possibly the most sedate coastal place I have ever visited. Top half of her was wearing a “normal” top, the other half incongruously was wearing very ripped/slashed jeans. In my head (never out loud) I said - you look ridiculous - because she did. It was extremely judgemental but I would imagine 9/10 people would have thought she looked mutton/odd/desperate. But no matter, she couldn’t read my thoughts, and even if she could, why would what a total stranger thinks put you off of wearing what you want to.

But the concept of dressing in too young a fashion is a thing. Some things are out of bounds - not legally, morally or physically but because your age is out of kilter with the garment in question. But then there is nothing to stop somebody wearing whatever they like.

I think Brigitte Macron dresses very elegantly, I love to see what she is wearing, although some of her skirts are a tad too young for her. Kate Middleton however, dresses in the opposite way. She wears clothes that also look a bit odd and too old for her. So it can work the other way.

It’s funny how we can say that clothes are too old for someone e.g Kate Middleton but people really don’t like it the other way around, dressing too old for your age does go to show certain clothes do have age brackets.

Though I’m not sure if ripped jeans are a total no no on someone over 60, it depends how ripped and where the rips are. I think Felicity Kendall looks great here she is wearing ripped jeans but not overly so, more of a nod to the trend.

I think those jeans are somewhat too young for her. She is an elegant woman usually. Haven’t seen her for a while but around the same time as she wore those she wore this. And that is definitely too young for her.

Yes that second picture is not a good look, overly embellished, too many rips and a mid riff bearing shirt, but the look I posted I really don’t think that looks too young at all, classic top, understated rips and a cool bag, I think it’s the perfect balance.

Warning (When I grow old I shall wear purple)

So part of the thinking behind "mutton dressed as lamb" is about what women are "allowed" to do if they are to be accepted as "respectable".

The older woman, especially perhaps the unattached divorcee or widow, is a bit of a threat and possibly no better than she ought to be. She certainly shouldn't be wearing short skirts or ripped jeans.

Part of this is about the "16/64" idea. Women aren't supposed to dress or wear their hair or otherwise appear in a way that suggests they are youthful and fertile, when they are "past it" - past the expected childbearing age. It is audacious, offensive and ridiculous, and somehow unfair, especially perhaps if like Brigitte Macron, they appear to be pulling it off.

Part of this is about the viewer's own inhibitions. If someone feels they can't wear ripped jeans/ a hoodie/ shorts themselves, surely it is wrong if someone 10 or 20 years old is wearing those things.

Reading this thread makes me want to go the full Baddiewinkle.

I think I know what mutton dressed as lamb means, and it’s not about age or clothes, but desperation.

I think “overdone looks” are rather muttony at any age.

Liz Hurley is getting muttony imo, whereas Joan Collins isn’t.

Johanna lumney isn’t muttony, but Amal Clooney is sometimes.

I hate to say it, but Meghan Markle is a bit muttony, Kate Middleton isn’t, neither is her mum. Doria isn’t either.
Diana wasn’t, but Fergie is, as are Eugene and Beatrice.

It’s not about age, or clothes per se, but a “desperate” mindset. Just wrong clothes that don’t sit right and aren’t congruous with the shape/ style and intention of the wearer.