Mutton

[NigellasGuest]

Following recent posts I've noticed on the S&B board, I would really love to know what is mutton dressed as lamb? As in, can anyone actually define it or post a picture of someone who is mutton dressed as lamb? To my mind it doesn't actually exist, and is just another way of saying "badly dressed". People seem to use it as in, I need an outfit but I don't want to look like MDAL but what do they REALLY mean by this? if a dress doesnt look right on you then to my mind it's because it's too short or too long for your proportions or you have the wrong shoes with it, or another reason like that. This mutton thing is just lazy talk I think.

I'm getting on in years - in my 50s - and if I get dressed and don't like what I see, I don't think I look like MDAL. I just think I'm badly dressed.

I’m 53, not worn a miniskirt for years, this thread is making me want to go out wearing one!

I have great legs btw but big boobs so they make me look top heavy but hey, fuck it!

So much ageism and po faced judgementalism on this thread.

Also don’t think ‘muttony’ Is an actual adjective...

Lightweightstroller

Nailed it. Agree with all your examples.

So what do we think of this outfit worn by 16 year Kaia Gerber? Inappropriate? Just right? Muttony?

I said I’d hide this thread but I didn’t and here I am reading it again.

I wonder is there a term for younger women who dress ‘too old’ (whatever that is). Any meat we can compare them too? Or is that just for older, ‘past it’, women that should know how and when to tie the line and be ‘respectable’ and well, darn it all, just fit in!

I despair at the lack of insight some posters have, how misogynistic and judgemantal they are of themselves and other women. (I say this as a fairly conservative dresser, but I wear what I think looks good, and yes I wear a bikini and yes it looks well.) And of course I judge myself.
It makes me fret for the progression of women in the world. It’s not so long ago that that when women wanted to be considered for politics! So brash and harsh and well, just not tasteful. Or so we thought. Somehow when that was challenged....well, we know the outcome.

Yes Tea, mutton is a, 'thing', it is a sexist and ageist thing. As people have already said, it perpetuates the discrimination and silencing of older women? Why join in?

Horrible term.
A woman who has a great body but someone has decided she is past it=mdal.
A woman who wears tight clothing or revealing clothing=slag.
A woman who takes too much time over her appearance = slut.
A woman who takes too little time over her appearance = frump.
A woman who dresses sensibly = mumsy.dresses

Awful.

That's so true Belindabauer

What are your views of the following in the workplace for a mature woman. Dressed up sport luxe with tailored jacket plus fashion trainers versus pelmet min skirt bare legs flashing your underwear and v high heels.

Oh god - I thought I’d said my last, but... if we had a gender-neutral term, would that be acceptable? I understand the objection to MDAL as a term, I really do. We’ve had enough of women being compared to pieces of meat - but nobody objecting to the term seems to answer the question - can you dress ‘too young’. I think the answer is patently yes - and it applies to men and women. I think Lightweightstroller nailed it when she talked about desperation.

The question is of course, how do you define ‘too young’. I have a 63 year old friend, who is super-fit, outgoing, used to work in the music industry, and absolutely rocks short tartan skirts (slightly skater) with opaque tights and knee-high boots. I’m 10 years younger and wouldn’t wear it - even though we have similar figures. It would feel ‘too young’ on me (although I would have worn it in my 20s) - but because it’s a reflection of who she is, and not an attempt to be someone else, she looks amazing.

I really don’t want to have to repeat in every fucking thread - if you are happy with what you wear - of course you wear it. I think that goes without saying. Nobody is telling anybody what to wear, it’s just some of us (whisper it) have an opinion about what looks stylish (it being the S&B board after all ) - and believe it or not, not every opinion that flutters through my pretty little head is a result of ‘internalised misogyny’.

Of course everyone can wear what they like etc...but my shock on reading this thread was what people consider to be "old"! Over 30?! I an 54, I don't wear exactly what I used to. Not because of my age per se but because I am a different shape now and my old styles wouldn't flatter me (was an hourglass shape, now more lumpy and bumpy!). The change only came quite a bit after 40. At my 38th birthday party I wore skimpy underwear under a totally transparent dress and completely rocked. The day I met my DH-to-be (I was 41, he was 33) I was wearing a denim dungaree dress with no underwear at all...

How did you keep your tits under control in a dungaree dress, theDudesmummy? I'm in awe! Mine had a mind of their own even in my youth!

Kaia Gerber looks fine in that dress. I wouldn't. I would look like mutton. I am in my 50s.

thedudesmummy

Yes - I agree. The poster who said she was wearing skinny jeans and a Bardot top on her 42nd birthday, like it was something unusual . I’d wear that at 10 years older, if my boobs weren’t too huge for Bardot tops (I hate strapless bras, so uncomfortable). Plenty of my less endowed friends would wear that too and we’re all in our 50s.

I guess there is still a discussion about whether women feel they have the right to be stylish and fashionable at a later age - as if they should put all those ‘fun’ things behind them and only wear smart/sensible attire - become invisible and blend into the background. But maybe men feel like that too?

www.fabulousafter40.com/should-you-follow-fashion-rules/

I agree

Cut and pasted from NigellasGuest's pp.
I am 50ish and slim. I wear WTF I like.

CressidaEgg - not muttony but nightie. Does nothing for her.

Men might feel the same , I don't know.
But if they go out without bothering to dye their grey hair, or wear a colour which isn't perfect for them or wear comfortable clothes or practical clothes,or don't spend a fortune hiding wrinkles and skin imperfections, or go a bit overboard on tight clothing, or overboard on grooming, or don't cut all their hair off the minute they start to go bald, they are not referred to as either:
A slut
A tramp
A slab
Mdal
A tart
A drink
Mumsy ( daddy is not A word ever used).
Or any other derogatory term about is not the same.

A drink! = a frump
Daddy= dadsy see auto corrected every time as it isn't a word!

I don’t like the phrase MDAL but I do think it looks slightly “wrong” when people deliberately try and dress as though they are trying to convince people that they are a different age to their actual age, rather than wearing something because they love it or want to play around with fashion. It’s difficult to define, as a lot of it depends on personal style, but I think it boils down to most people not wanting to wear the same outfits as either their daughter or their mother!

Dad dancing - Dad bod - Dad jokes - Dad trousers (at least Mom jeans are fashionable).Yep, men don’t have the pressure to dye their hair in Western Cultures - but they do absolutely do in Asian and South American ones. What about bald men or men with combovers? They are mercilessly ridiculed (or those that wear troupes/wigs?) I would argue that women have a lot more freedom to express themselves with clothes and ‘dress younger’ than men do without judgement. Sometimes or for some people that ‘freedom’ can equally be a ‘chore’.

As for all those names given to women slut/slag/frump - who the hell are you hanging around with? Nobody I know would call a woman those names and if they did, I wouldn’t care what they thought.

I agree with you about skin though. I love that the beauty industry has moved away from ‘anti-aging’ and now talks about dewy, luminous or brilliant complexions as if it’s not selling exactly the same thing.

Gosh Thrice I would have thought those words slut/slag/frump are not uncommon at all. (Not amongst my friends as they are clearly enlightened). Frump is quite frequently used on this board. I wonder how you’re not reading or hearing them.

I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned dad dancing.
It's not the same is it?
It describes an action someone does badly, it does not describe their apperance . It's like criticising someone's driving because they have deliberately parked across your drive blocking you in.
If on the other hand as many many posters have written about , you are walking down the street and someone drives past and calls you a slag, that is not comparable .

If course my friends and family don't use terms like this , well never in d not of me that dont. However plenty of people do.
I myself have been called a slag whilst wearing flat shoes and loose clothing.
My crime was to reject a strangers adcances. He then proceeded to spit on my face.

You must be living under a rock if you have never, ever heard these terms.
Mdal is the title of this thread!

As for dad jokes, stop telling crap jokes.
I tell my dp if his jokes aren't funny.
Strange how women don't get this. Probably due to the fact they don't try and bore everyone senseless.

But Belinda - that’s exactly my point - shouting ‘slag’ or other names at you probably has v little to do with wearing skimpy clothes - the sort of person who would do that does not need a reason. I should imagine covered up Muslim women get called worse. One of the times I was sexually assaulted I was wearing a work suit - very boring and conservative. God knows why he though he could grab my tits and tell me how much he wanted to fuck me - but he did.

Sorry to disappoint you by mentioning ‘dad dancing’ - but I notice you didn’t reply to my comment about men going bald - and the ridicule and humiliation they often face. A family member went bald very young (early 20s) and I can tell you the abuse he got was heartbreaking (he was a very sensitive soul). Women do not have the monopoly on being judged on their looks - just ask any man under 5ft 7.

Champion Yes frump is used a lot on the board - it means something to the posters who use it and posters who reply understand it. I’m guessing they don’t feel oppressed by the word - it’s shorthand for feeling unstylish and a bit dull. I’ve never heard anyone shout it as an insult - but maybe I am sheltered. You are right that there isn’t a male equivalent - but I can certainly picture a ‘frumpy’ man.

Anyway - It seems there are two opinions:

1. Even the concept of MDAL is utterly unacceptable as it is misogynistic and no one can ever say that a woman is dressing ‘too young’ as that means you have bought into misogyny (even if you think the same applies to men).

1. MDAL is a dubious term that needs updating but both sexes can certainly dress ‘too young’. It’s not defined by rules but about being yourself as you are now and not trying to be an earlier version or someone younger.

.

Kaia Gerber looks fine in that dress. I wouldn't. I would look like mutton. I am in my 50s

See, I don't think anyone would look good or even fine in Kaia's dress.

I wouldn't wear it (in my 50s) and I'd be mortified if my teenage daughter wore it. It's too revealing. And it looks bad on Kaia because of her boney shoulders and chest and stick thin legs. But she gets a pass because she is young, whereas an equally thin but much older woman would be vilified. So, it's not about being mutton but about the dress being inappropriate - and unflattering - on any woman.

Not sure either of those are quite right Thrice? Your first formulation addresses the sexism but not the ageism.

The problem with the second formulation is that it places the observer in the position of determining what the wearer's 'true self' actually is.

And just for the record, here is the dictionary definition of frump:

An unattractive woman who wears dowdy old-fashioned clothes.

'Desperate', 'swathes of crepey flesh'

This is one of the most misogynistic threads I have read on here. How can wearing ripped jeans make you look 'desperate'?