Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Style and beauty

Looking for style advice? Chat all about it here. For the latest discounts on fashion and beauty, sign up for Mumsnet Moneysaver emails.

🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Hairmageddon looms...

991 replies

botemp · 20/02/2018 11:00

Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3 Thread 4 Thread 5 Thread 6 Thread 7 Thread 8 Thread 9 Thread 10
Thread 11

For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

NEWish since previous threads:

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

FEBRUARY 2018: The month of February sucks. Period. We’re sick of winter and the state of our finances, some are embracing frugality (in different shapes and forms) but water bills and car maintenance are ruining our buzz. Hair appointments need to be made despite the palpitations of fear that the mere thought incites. Oh, and skin texture. As you were...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
mintmagnummm · 01/03/2018 21:40

It doesn't have any sound on it on my phone though?! Can anyone tell me why she says apply thermal water before cleansing? And Is that am and pm??

SallieSallow · 01/03/2018 21:53

I've not seen the video Mint I just read about the thermal water here, do you have the link I'm too lazy to search for it

I use it after cleansing and also as a layer before HA and/or between HA moisturiser if my skin is flaky (like right now).

SophieLion · 02/03/2018 04:48

I have the link handy but no idea how to link it. Will watch in a bit and tell you Mint.

Can someone explain how to do link on the phone app or do I need to go on the computer?

GrinGrin Sallie with the name confusion!

SophieLion · 02/03/2018 05:41

Mint - she says to apply thermal water before cleansing to emolliate and soften the skin. And to prepare skin to receive the product. Thermal water is a clean water and doesn't contain any bad elements like calcium and chlorine.

I do apply thermal water in the morning before cleansing but in the evening, I do a first cleanse with Dermalogica pre-cleanse which I apply straight onto dry skin and so only use thermal water after cleansing.

MrsDOnofrio · 02/03/2018 05:51

Mint cleansing video. Hopefully linking will work...

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oXloVFZ6r9s

SophieLion · 02/03/2018 05:52

Just to add Mint that my understanding (and I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), is that oil-based cleansers (like my a Dermalogica pre-cleanse - just oils actually) go straight on dry skin whereas other cleanser types can go on wet skin, hence using the thermal water. So think it depends on the type of cleanser you have.

RosieLig · 02/03/2018 08:28

Hi again

Very interesting about the cleansing...

My skin goes not like this weather! I’m having a break from the retinol as my skin has gone flakey and dry.

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you use Indeed Labs products? I like the Hydraluron serum and moisturiser. I was thinking about trying their retinol and Vitamin C serum - they are pretty highly rated on Boots.
www.boots.com/indeed-labs-retinol-reface-retinol-skin-resurfacer-10163871?cm_mmc=bmm--Google+Boots+PLAs--BAU--C=%28GB%3AWhoop%21%29+Boots+Shopping+-+Category+-+Beauty+-+Mobile%28GB%3AWhoop%21%29+Indeed+Labs&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi7711JvN2QIVqpztCh0ZBwXTEAQYASABEgKw2PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

www.boots.com/indeed-labs-vitamin-c24-facial-creme-30ml-10209694?cm_mmc=bmm--Google+Boots+PLAs--BAU--C=%28GB%3AWhoop%21%29+Boots+Shopping+-+Category+-+Beauty+-+Mobile%28GB%3AWhoop%21%29+Indeed+Labs&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi7711JvN2QIVqpztCh0ZBwXTEAQYAiABEgJ_0fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

My retinol doesn’t seem to be doing much apart from making me flake!
zo-skinhealth.co.uk/zoskinhealth/brightenex-05/
Sorry about mega links!!!Blush

mintmagnummm · 02/03/2018 09:02

I have no idea how to link either! I have no sound on the video either so no idea what she's saying 🤔.
So do you spray water on then go straight in with cleanser or do you have to blot it dry first?

My little boy is poorly so been up most of the night with him, feel like crap.

mintmagnummm · 02/03/2018 09:03

And got my period!

SophieLion · 02/03/2018 09:55

Oh not a good combination of events Mint. Hope your son feels better soon. And that you get some sleep.

With the link: on my phone with you tube videos it says to press something on the screen to un-mute. Do you have this?

For morning cleanse, I spray thermal water and then put cleanser straight on. Wash it all off with tepid water (sometimes use flannel and sometimes not because I feel flannel is sometimes harsh on my skin). Then I spray thermal water again and blot that final spray off with tissue before starting with serums etc.

mintmagnummm · 02/03/2018 09:58

Thank you Sophie x
I do usually have the unmute symbol but for some reason none of the videos linked here has them on my phone 🤨

botemp · 02/03/2018 09:58

I've been up since well before the crack of down but seem to quite clear-headed, so am determined to get all the replies in on this thread.

Enid, any chance that they listed the lipstick for the pic attached? I've been looking for something like that for a while now and I've never been steered wrong by Mary Greenwell before. I love that she used barely or any mascara, for whatever reason I've been going that way since returning from Paris, it feels fresher somehow.

Thanks for all the lovely pics btw. It's a known strategy at Hearst Magazines to 'recycle' articles, they started it as an online strategy. I mean cost savings wise it just makes sense and the overlap of subscribers/readers isn't that large and I'd much rather one thoroughly researched article than 20 snippets that are there as filler.

mint, I know you're asking after the L'Oreal shampoos but have you ever tried the Eucerin ones? On my revisit of all their renewed products the urea shampoo caught my eye for you, it does contain sulphates but not SLS, looks to be really good for scalp issues and could be used daily. More info here.

JDSTER, re: the SPF thing and prescription retinoids, considering most retinoid talk on here is ageing focused rather it's one of the minuses of Japanese SPF labeling that makes it difficult. They have the PA++++ system for UVA rays (the ageing ones) where the highest rating is anything over PPD15 (IIRC), which is high but French Pharmacy brands will often give the exact PPD ratings and they're usually in the 30-50 range so there's a huge scope of difference in that regard. Prescription retinoids make skin very sun sensitive, SPF50 is the minimum and you want to safeguard it because all the effort can just as easily be undone by the sun sensitivity and exposure to the sun. Physical SS are usually recommended as they will have a high PPD rating by their own nature and the US lacks access to good UVA filters and most dermatologists will sell US cosmeceutical brands. Personally I think a physical/chemical mix gives the best protection but heightened sensitivities may make a physical only SS more of a necessity so it remains the preferred choice. However, at the height of summer or if you're going skiing or similar but even if you're just having limited exposure to the sun from April-October, the Biore Watery Essence and similar just aren't up to scratch. They cover you fine when an SPF30 minimum suffices and you actually are mostly indoors but adding the prescription retinoid in the mix tips that balance into unsuitable in my book, especially if you're someone that burns easily without SPF protection.

@JMAngel1, sorry for the delay in response. I know sea buckthorn is often touted as a Rosacea saviour but I don't recall if those soaps saponify and/or are alkaline? It's probably worth looking into as that is not helpful to skin health.

The double cleansing doesn't make sense to me in your routine. It's a technique with a specific set of products, an oil-based cleanser followed by a cream cleanser (sometimes a low pH foaming). Using the same cleanser twice just makes no sense, you have rosacea so really should be minimising the amount of water and hand friction your face is subjected too, you're best off cleaning once with a very gentle but effective cleanser and perhaps using a bit more than normal to get everything off in one go.

The SPF is one I'd reconsider. I don't rec Korean sunscreens because their regulations aren't all that strong. Most didn't even rank over PA+++ until recently but that was a rather arbitrary regulation to look more Japanese when they're not comparable. I think they cover you well enough on the UVB spectrum but I'm not convinced by the UVA spectrum protection.

I really wouldn't be taking any actives up to the lashline, especially since you have rosacea, the potential for thread veins only increases and you won't know the damage until it's already done. Fine to take something as innocuous as moisturiser up and SPF should always be taken up to the lashline but anything else has to be tested to be safe for the eye area, it really isn't worth the potential damage.

You're overusing the ALA, TO suggests 2-3x a week max and that would be the reccomendation for someone without skin conditions like rosacea and probably not using a retinoid alongside it. In your case it would be once a week or fortnight without taking in consideration the retinoid. Personally, I'm not all that convinced on the long-term effects of ALA, most of the research all stems from the same place (Dr. Perricone's research clinic), supposedly it's the newest retinol like product but so many ingredients claim to be that and it rarely pans out that way.

Yes, Niacinamide can be soothing but that's in lower concentrations than TO product, which can be potentially irritating. So it's more Niacinamide in a cleanser like the LRP Toleriane Hydrating one (think it's still France only) or in a moisturiser at concentrations of 4-5%. TO Niacinamide isn't formulated for soothing but for tackling acne.

I think the Soolantra has saved you from most aggravation at this point as it acts as an anti-inflammatory too. TO 2% retinoid is pretty gentle to begin with and I personally find it less effective as it ages, most likely due to the fact that it's in a dropper bottle and all retinoids really should be in an airtight packaging to avoid degradation, so I guess it's okay to use with rosacea as it's pretty harmless but IMO it's also pretty ineffectual in that sense.

Rosacea really is about management and it really depends on how bad or not it is whether you can integrate the heavy duty anti-ageing actives into it. Retinoids can be part of that management and actually very helpful but it's so individual, Dr. Sam did a on it recently. I think in this case, since you're already on prescription medication for the rosacea it's best to discuss that with a dermatologist.

Sophie, Maastricht is hardly the Netherlands Wink, most of us don't understand them and Belgium and Germany are closer by than Maastricht. It is a lovely place to visit though, just horribly far away. I think I use US terms of phrases (initially learned English from TV) and mostly UK spelling (depended on the teacher but I mostly read UK English books), possibly that's why you've imagined me to be US based.

Grin Grin Grin at Fabio! He must be included in the title too, along with Sallie Swallows. Maybe we can name the hairy pussy dermaplaning lion Fabio Halo

Rosie, the list of eye products that are legitimately safe to use on the eye are and have the actives necessary is abysmally short.

I've been using the Verso for years but just preventatively so can't comment on reversing signs of ageing. The newest one we came across is the retinol eye serum from Dr. Dennis Gross which is the first one I've come across that can actually be used on the lid. There's also the Skinceuticals AOX eye gel which has a bit of a cult following, no retinol in that one, just collagen stimulating and protecting- so more of use if you've just started getting fine lines rather than wishing to reverse deep canyons (but the latter is probably beyond the scope of most OTC products). There's also the LRP Redermic R eye cream but this isn't an allround success product for everyone.

I have some of those skyn-like patches from Verso, they were a freebie and I've never used them, must give them a go before they expire. Shiseido actually have some really good retinol eye patches, they're pricey but work really well and getting your retinol fresh like that is actually quite smart.

Those skinpep snail patches must be from Korea then! You can actually buy those quite cheaply from Korea but I've never tried them as they all contain fragrance.

Peony, I'd really reavaluate what you 'need'. A skincare regime is built up from trial and error not bought in one go. What works great for some, doesn't work as well for others. I assume you've asked TO for an anti-ageing regime and they've pretty much given the standard routine for that. The HA 2% is a product I wouldn't reccomend to anyone, far too many posters with bad experiences on it on here. The buffet is nice enough but nothing extraordinary either. After thoroughly testing their retinoids I've come to the conclusion (as have others) that the long-term efficacy just isn't there. Start with sunscreen, a cleanser, and a moisturiser first. Those are the most important things to have working for you, especially sunscreen, it's the best anti-ager around. It's very individual and hard to get right, it also depends if you wear makeup over it, etc.

Enid, weather is very cold and windy so it feels arctic but no snow, just flurries and the sun pretty much melts it away. Maybe some snow tonight though and everyone has skating fever. If my feet hadn't shrunk so much I'd be getting mine out too but I suspect the shops will be sold out of them now.

Rosie, I'm confused which retinol are you using or are you using both? You've linked a Philosophy one and a ZO one.

If it's a traditional retinol then if it's peeling technically it's working, but absence of peeling does not mean it's not working either. Prescription retinoids take 6 months to show results, OTC versions are much weaker so therefore take even longer.

I don't think anyone's tried the Indeed Labs retinol on here but in theory it checks the airtight packaging criteria but IL products are very siliconey which is a textural dislike for some, a skin intolerance thing for others but in the case of Vit C it could inhibit the effectiveness of it, stabilising it perhaps too much, leaving it unable to move into the skin, remaining suspended above it.

Sophie, yes oil based cleansers go on the skin dry, cream based cleansers (provided you're not trying to get makeup or other oilier substances off) go on slightly damp skin.

OP posts:
MrsDOnofrio · 02/03/2018 10:22

Has anyone bought “The scientific revolution in skincare” by Hannah Sivak? I’m hoping to find some information on ingredients etc and it looks informative. Or can anyone suggest some good sources of information, other than Wikipedia? Although I’m concerned that I’m using skincare as procrastination rather than working on my dissertation. At this rate I could plan a third career change as a chemist Grin

botemp · 02/03/2018 10:31

Yes, I've read it. Unfortunately, it's a collection of her blog posts and it pushes her own skincare line products quite a bit. However, if you've never read her before and you ignore the promotional bits then it's a pretty good read and will certainly help you understand how to read an INCI label and give understanding to the different ingredients and what they do. It's also an interesting insight into how a chemist will develop a product.

I can also recommend the Telomere Effect, it's more a larger wellbeing approach from two Nobel prize winning scientists who specialise in genetics/DNA rather than skin specific but at the end of the day your skin is a reflection of the internal and how you age impacts that so much. It's written very accessibly too.

OP posts:
MrsDOnofrio · 02/03/2018 10:40

Thanks Bo I didn’t realise she had a blog, will check that out first (more procrastination). The telomere effect sounds interesting too, I’ll have a look for that.

botemp · 02/03/2018 10:51

It's the Skin Actives blog, which is the brand name in the US, in the UK they're Active Formulas confusingly but same products but they also sell lots of DIY ingredients.

Telemore Effect should pretty cheap as an ebook these days. I lost my copy an think I only paid 2 euros to buy it digitally.

OP posts:
miffy2 · 02/03/2018 11:52

Have any of you used and liked the Active Formulas range? I see they have a growth serum for lashes and brows. I have been using iGlow serum and find it surprisingly good, especially as I now see new hairs under my brow that have not been there in years.

Would be interested in trying their Vitamin C too, a readymade version, Bo have you been using that one yet?

miffy2 · 02/03/2018 11:58

Or was it Sally who was using Active Formulas Vit C? If so sorry for the confusion but would love any feedback. They only have 15% available at the moment. As mentioned before I don't know when my DE will run out (good packaging otherwise!) and it will be April or May before I get my next bottle.

JDSTER · 02/03/2018 12:10

Bo I just checked that Red article and it doesn't state which lip colour is used, just that "makeup by Mary Greenwell, using Laura Mercier"

JDSTER · 02/03/2018 12:21

Thanks re SPF info Bo so are there physical/chemical mix spfs you'd recommend specifically?

Tantpoke · 02/03/2018 12:46

Rosie the indeed labs products were created by Brandon who left and started Deciem instead which as we know has gone stratospheric with all his various products.

The indeed labs hydraluron serum was very popular when it frst came out as it was percieved to add an extra layer of moisture 1000x better than water. Here is a link to it from back then from CH website

www.carolinehirons.com/2012/08/hall-of-fame-hydraluron.html

miffy2 · 02/03/2018 12:54

I used the IL reface and vitamin C. Stopped using the Vitamin C as it was too silicone-y for my skin. Can't say I noticed any improvement from the indeed reface either.

Tantpoke · 02/03/2018 12:56

In fact because of a nondisclosure agreement Brandon couldn't produce a face care product for 2 years so got around this by creating a hand product which could also be used on the face called 'Hand Chemistry' which people went crazy for at the time (I believe it had retinol in it) so by the time he could bring out his face products he had a lot of cult followers chomping at the bit for his creations.

This was all around the time I first got interested in skincare, and I'm still learing by trial and error, although I now have a decent regime that suits my skin and only just really with everyones valuable help on here.

It's a slow process testing out what suits you and because of the obvious costs involved threads like this are invaluable really.

SophieLion · 02/03/2018 13:16

Miffy, I think it was Sallie who had used the Vichy vit C but she wasn't sure if her not so great experience with it was because it was out of fridge and out of date!

I might try it whilst deliberating whether to buy the DE or the SC one. Is the US generally cheaper for these or are they actually only available there?

Anyone have a preference re DE or SC vit C??

Ah Bo, all the Dutch complain that Maastricht isn't NL!!! GrinGrin And that they couldn't understand the very few Dutch words I picked up because of the accent/dialect!!!

botemp · 02/03/2018 13:40

I've never bought anything from AF, I placed an order once and it never arrived and it was a real pain in getting my money back as they just didn't respond to my emails. Nearly opened up a claim with Paypal which I've never had to do before, or even contemplate. It's a shame I really wanted to try their products but the CS was just very crappy.

Thanks JDSTER, she appeared to be using several brands but at least that will give me a direction to look, I never really go to LM for lip products so I may very well have been missing out all this time.

Hmm, Pupsie mentioned something upthread about Boots and their review policy not being on the level or something. I remember Hydraluron got a whopping amount of positive attention but a lot of people didn't get on with it at all. I'd kind of forgotten that Brandon T left IL with a lot of drama then too.

WRT to SPF recs JDSTR, it's a bit difficult to say x,y, and z. Thing is you have to look at the filters, the ones that are best at protecting against UVA1 specifically- the ones we care about for anti-ageing. The ones to look out for are:

Avobenzone - but it's highly unstable, degenerates within an hour and has the ability to destabilise other filters/the entire formulation.
Tinsosorb (S and M)
Mexoryl (SX) - proprietary ingredient of L'Oreal
Unival A Plus
Zinc Oxide - in high concentrations ~20% (v. chalky and massive whitecast)

Then it's a matter of which sunscreen and when. High PPD sunscreens are rarely cosmetically elegant, they're just harder to work with and you have to keep in mind that if you're in a prescription retinoid situation you'll be applying at least 3x a day. Realistically I'd save that type of heavy duty sunscreen for extreme exposure days (high UV days, lots of time outdoors, large bodies of water, skiing, etc.). Bioderma, La Roche Posay, and (I think) Uriage are the only ones that give a PPD rating on their products. Over PPD30, the Bioderma Cicabio SPF50+ (filters: Unival A Plus, Homosolate, Oticoxinate, Tinsosorb S) is the most cosmetic elegant one I've come across so far but it's like 31 so it's just in there. No idea how it will behave in summer at this point though. It's also quite affordable despite it being in a tiny tube, but SPFs without Avobenzone are generally more expensive to make and therefore purchase. It's purely chemical though but the filters chosen are good enough on their own but not everyone likes a chemical formulation.

So for normal daywear (but still with due diligence on reapplication), I'd look at something around the PPD20 mark. The EltaMd is rumoured to be around PPD18 due to the chemical/physical mix. With the Japanese formulations I'd go for the chemical/physical mix as well as they'll be closer to 20 than 15. Usually if they're marketed as either anti-pigmentation or anti-ageing they'll have a higher PPD but the prices will go up and you won't see avobenzone in the formulation. I think the Kose one I use in summer has a PPD of 22, I think I looked that up once but may well not be remembering correctly.

Anyhow, you're on Differin so it should be noted that's a little different. Generally when I say prescription Vit A I'm talking tretinoin. Differen/Adapalene is a synthetic retinoid so whilst making you more sun sensitive, not in the degree that tretinoin does. I think 'officially' the recommended SPF to use with Differin is SPF15 Shock

Sophie, I've only ever used SC not DE so can't compare but I have been seeing some critical articles on it but I need to look into it a little more. SC remains the gold standard in a way and if bought online from facethefuture.co.uk with free delivery in the EU with a small discount. With all the shipping and import taxes with Sephora that comes in more expensive but I think the Vichy is a good one to try first as the investment is low and it's pretty close to SC.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread