Madonna at the Grammys - Sticking two fingers up to getting older or burlesque dancer at the working mens club

[Redismyfavouritefood]

?

boob spillage and flashing her arse

so in order to look her age what would she have to not do?
would she not exercise or eat healthily so that her body looked like the average 56 year old?
Not have botox or fillers, or just a bit so that she has some lines?
no surgery?
what about hair dye, what cosmetic interventions would she be allowed in order for her to look her age?

I don't think she looks like she has had anything radical done any more than other celebs She does look older just not haggard and tired

I suppose if you are constantly being photographed you have to have small frequent 'interventions' rather than any major sort of face lift which requires you to disappear for several weeks and then emerge looking 20 years younger

I don't know what work she's had done although I assume some. Bit I mostly meant how hard she must have to work-out to keep her figure. I imagine she's through the menopause and just thinking about her gym regime makes me want to go and lie down.

But.

so it's her youthful body which you find the most unnatural Flo?

I'd see that as the most natural and achievable part of her.
You dont need to be wealthy to eat sensibly and exercise regularly, there's no surgery involved, physical exercise is a perfectly 'natural' thing for humans to do.
I see women in the gym or out running who are in their 50's and who are as lean if not leaner.

(But they dont have the 30 year old face!)

I find the idea of the exercise knackering too. The face is part intervention part genetics.

Well I guess it's achievable but I dread to think how many hours she must have to put in every day to stay that way.

I don't really see having to spend hours in a gym every day as natural.

I suppose it's more about the face for me as there is such a big difference between people who look their age facially and those who start to just look more plumped, pillowy and weirdly stretched instead.

VW is 70-something, she looks like a 70-something person who still has a love affair with clothes, great sense of style, loads of confidence and beauty. She dyes her hair but in a "hey let's have orange hair" way rather than a "I'll pretend I haven't gone grey" way.

VW

No it isn't morally superior, but I suppose it appeals more to me as a normal person because as a PP said, that's a role model I have a hope of emulating. When I look at Madonna I think even if I wanted to look like that, I don't have the necessary millions.

However, I don't because I just find the fake plastic face look makes me uncomfortable - not for moral reasons but more just uncanny valley type reasons. When people start to look not quite human, it's disconcerting.

what are your criteria for 'natural' then?

noddy out of interest, what do you mean when you say everything takes a lot longer to look good? At just over 40, my main issue is skin that looks dull, but since I discovered Dior Glow Maximiser and Clarins concealer it looks OK again. I also have to get my highlights done more often to cover greys. So I definitely spend more, but it doesn't take longer. What happens from 40 to 50?

I'm afraid my own experience is that post 50, 'natural' means a bit saggy: face, body, well everything. It's weird because I'm still slim and only a couple of pounds heavier than I was in my thirties but my body's a different shape and barely recognisable.

And the thing with Madonna is that I don't think she's naturally even that thin. In 'Holiday', 'Like a Virgin', 'Get into the Groove' etc her body and face are quite soft and rounded (and very pretty). That whippet lean body was one of her first self re-inventions and maintaining it now must be absolute torture for her. I can't imagine what she must put herself through every day. I want to tell her to sit down, smell the daisies and watch a box set.

Well I am lucky with the hair I have no grey really but everything else seems to need done more. I think its just that if you leave it which I often did you can't really get away with it if you want to look a certain way and I used to just put my hair in a bun if it was dirty and I still do but it used to still look good whereas now it looks like dirty hair in a bun! Need make up and moisturise my body and face more. I am not complaining (much) its my choice. I am not as bothered about being a bit heavier and I definitely am but I hate dull skin and hair Just my thing.

squoosh

poor ole tortured Madonna!

Saurus: hormones and gravity (plus teenage children?)?

More generally, yes, agree that 'natural' is a problematic term. Isn't all aesthetic judgement (especially about women's appearance) based on specific social, historical and cultural values? For instance, looking tanned and looking pale have both been seen as the desirable epitome of 'natural' at different points over the last 100 years?

As has....being plump, when it was a sign of being well fed and wealthy. Being lean usually meant poor nutrition or starvation! a hard days work and was not desirable. A tan meant working the land and the pampered ladies stayed out of the sun. I'm more Ruebenesque than Kate Moss but I do do a bit of Dove gradual tan, my hair is clean and still shiny (at 53) I go no where without tinted moisturiser, mascara, blush and lippy.

My friend in NYC claims Madge had a full facelift by Dr Baker 10+ years ago and is stuffed to the gills with Sculptra.

isnt that kind of what you'd expect to be the case though MsB, I mean that she's had surgery and fillers?

Well yes obviously, I'm simply passing on the alleged specifics of the work not making a judgement.

Didn't she have one of those ribbon facelifts where they thread something along your jawline to tighten everything.

Elle McPherson is the most amazing 50 year old I think I've ever seen

Looks 'natural', there's something about Madge's look which makes me feel tired. Like if she didn't bother working out and up keeping for a week she would look totally different.

Susie from Countdown is 47. This amazes me!

Susie looks good for 47 but has clearly had botox and prob some fillers in the lower face