tell me about fur

[hydeparkhottie]

but I don't want to pay ridiculous amounts for it...why is it soo expensive? I've seen it on ebay and at markets for cheap cheap--and then everywhere else, it's super duper expensive...

whats the difference?

I was born in the 80's, so I don't think that is a mitigating factor for ignorance.

I have just as much of a problem with vintage fur - whilst it's true that the animal would be long dead by now anyway, it's a bigger issue than that. By wearing fur of any age, you are condoning the fur industry. It's a cheap argument to say "oh well it shouldn't go to waste". Wearing fur continues its popularity and encourages the industry to keep going.

The ivory argument is bizarre. God, the scale and means of ivory production back in the day was absolutely repulsive. The fact it's old shouldn't detract from the cruelty of it. Age doesn't somehow make things less immoral.

The only problem I have with faux fur coats is that some of them look so much like the real thing that it's difficult to tell them apart sometimes! That said, some real fur is extremely obvious when you see it, and every single time, without exception, I judge the person wearing it as being a complete and utter c**t.

As I said, there is absolutely no excuse to wear fur.

Does anyone remember how one of the vacuous Kardashians was a spokesperson for PETA, but then quit in a massive huff when someone threw flour or paint at something at Kim when she was wearing some absolutely foul floor length fur number?

Sadly fur is still quite popular amongst the pretentious rich, as it's a great way to show how much money you have, and how little of a fuck you give about anyone other than yourself. The soulless and empty husk of a woman Anne Wintour is a big fan apparently.

The PETA campaign did educate a whole nation in the 80's though, as did the no testing on animals campaign. Animal rights was everywhere, I remember the stalls on the high street every weekend showing lots of very large, very graphic pictures of animals being tortured in the name of human 'beauty'. Those born around or after I can understand how it could have been missed.
Personally I judge the likes of Naomi Cambell, who despite taking part in the campaign now wears fur, very surprised at Kate Moss as well, very disappointing.

Arguably the practices for just about any method of production in the late 18th century/early 19th would have been grim.

Ie: workhouse labour for cotton. The exploitation of the gold mining industry etc etc.

What should happen to all these items that were created via means that are not acceptable now?

These furs/jewellery/garments/god knows what else don't just cease to exist.

I don't think it is a weak argument to say that you don't want these items to go to 'waste.' I work in antiques and have always been interested in social anthropology.

Where were you all a few months back when there was a thread that went along the lines of 'I got a bit drunk at lunch time, got a new tattoo and bought a vintage real fur coat'. Every single reply was disgusted that the tattooist inked a consenting drunk person. So I suggested that the real problem was not consenting adults but the dead animals on her back. I got called a cunt and that I had no right to object unless I was vegan.
I'm so happy that was clearly a one off!

I don't think I explained my comparison to the ivory trade well.

My basic point was that it existed and is now illegal. Perhaps it should be the same for the fur trade?

Unless you are vegan you are a hypocrite.

That's like saying unless you're a pacifist you have no right to object to torture.

(I have nothing against pacifism, btw.)

milmingebag - what a ridiculous thing to say.

So unless you are vegan you can't be opposed to battery eggs? Or foie gras?

What a load of bullshit.

Milmingebag That argument doesn't really hold up. It's like saying vegetarians who eat dairy products are hypocrites. Some might argue that they are; it's not a totally baseless position to take. But it's like saying if I recycle my wine bottles but drive a car I'm a hypocrite - I think it's more sensible to believe that anything one does to live a little more ethically is a good thing.

Veganism is by no means morally superior from an environmental point of view - deforestation and habitat loss in order to grow soya is a huge issue. Vegans might not be eating animals, but that doesn't mean they aren't killing them.

If you wear "ethical" fur, how would the person sitting next to you on the bus know that it was? In other word, won't they judge you just the same as in regular fur?
Personally I couldn't sit next to you.

I am making the point that if you object to fur from an animal welfare perspective then you have no business eating meat,dairy and using animal byproducts in soaps etc as these are all cruel industries using animals for what actually just amounts to human choice.

You don't need to eat meat,drink milk,wear leather etc and if you choose to then you are all part and parcel of engaging in animal cruelty. I think some of you need to confront yourselves with the realities of the slaughterhouse/ veal trade/egg production. Some of these are actually crueller than the fur trade because the animal abuse is sustained over the entirety of their lives.

Such bullshit is spoken about this with non- vegans spouting on about animal cruelty seemingly completely unaware of how their everyday dietary/clothing choices impact upon animal welfare.

To answer another point many vegans shun soya for the reason outlined as well as other concerns.

Vegetarians who eat dairy ARE hypocrites. You need to educate yourself on the milk/egg industries and what actually goes on with respect to calves and chicks being destroyed and the manner of the farming.

Ps - there is a lot more evidence to support the fact a Vegan lifestyle has far less impact environmentally if that is a moral issue for you. Consider how much grain/land etc is needed to produce an amount of meat compared to just eating the grain in it's original form.

Oh jesus christ milmingebag.

You are coming across as the WORST type of vegan here. Your basic premise is "Unless you stop doing 100% then you are a vile hypocrite who needs to fuck off".

That's like saying that someone who boxes can't have an opinion on the death penalty or torture. Someone can be happy to eat eggs which have been ethically sourced (you do realise some of us live in the countryside?), but not so happy to eat KFC or foie gras.

You're spewing PETA crap, which is mainly focussed on farming methods IN THE UNITED STATES. There are EU regulations which are MUCH stricter on what can and cannot be labelled as free range produce, and many farmers use non beak trimmed birds.

Again, let's try and make this clear so your brain can understand.

There is no reason to wear fur. Period. No reason AT ALL. There are HUNDREDS of alternatives, fur is not a basic product in our daily lives, and it costs a large sum of money to purchase. In fact, everything is pretty much lined up AGAINST people wearing fur. You really have to actively want to be a completely fucking bastard in order to wear it.

Eggs and milk are - whether you like it or not - base food products. There are no cheap or similarly priced alternatives. Soy milk is expensive, and as you said yourself, hardly a very ethical alternative anyway.

Not everybody has the luxury of time, nor the money to be a vegan, and to suggest otherwise is frankly ignorant and classist. It is NOT an easy lifestyle. It's not even a particularly healthy lifestyle considering that most vegans need to take B vitamin supplements.

I should also point out that PETA not only approves of vegetarians (they have a whole section dedicated to how to become a vegetarian), but also recommends soy as a product for vegans to eat.

What was that you were saying about hypocrisy?

Thanks kaykayblue for posting that rant so I didn't have to

milminge I have researched all those things very thoroughly, thanks, and I make my decisions based on that research and how it squares with my conscience.

I would never eat battery eggs, but I do eat British rose veal, which is a by-product of the dairy industry.

I would argue that unless you eat only food which you grow yourself and wear only your own home-grown hemp, then by your exacting standards you're a hypocrite too.

The ignorance is scaring me, if you're real-not expecting this reaction.

Fur is horrendous. Barbaric. A shame to the human race. I come down massively on those who wear it, even vintage they're still advertising their attitude towards how that animal died, and in theory encouraging others that this is okay.

Leather isn't a by product of the meat trade.

I am not a vegan so that fucks up your argument somewhat kaykay.

I have however looked into the farming practices in the UK and am aware of the reality.

Thank-you for your input.

Agree that fur-wearing is unfortunately not the taboo it once was. There are fur trimmed parkas everywhere here ( France). My daughter's friend (10) has a coat lined with rabbit (Bonpoint) and I had to return a small girl's parka to good old Cyrillus as the collar was real fur (and a more pitiable, miserly bit of fur I have yet to see.) Poor thing.

A girl I work with has a rabbit trimmed stole. It has become less of a taboo I agree. It's so sad. It's the animal issue I feel more strongly about than any other. They must be so terrified and in so much agony.

Because people think it looks nice. I can't think of many things that are as wrong as that.

When buying fur it's worth considering that whilst the EU has now banned the trade in dog and cat fur from China many other furs from animals (foxes, mink, raccoon dogs) which are farmed there are imported into the EU. Also the fur isn't DNA tested so who knows what species it actually is (if that matters to you)

Anyone who thinks animals only suffer at the end if their lives in the fur trade is woefully ignorant. Milmingebag have you actually ever visited a fur farm? A livestock slaughter house or an intensive farm? I've worked in all three areas. I eat milk and eggs, yes there are problems in those industries but they pale next to fur.
Also instead of criticising others efforts for trying to make life better for some animals, why don't you try supporting them? You've said yourself you're not a vegan but why do you feel the need to belittle others efforts to do a bit less harm in the world? What's wrong with trying to be kind?

www.careforthewild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/furbriefingdoc206_paginated.pdf

Hey Everyone

I started this thread as a basic discussion, I really am/was curious. This thread has turned into something very ugly. I am now really upset about MN being a place I have to think twice before I ask a question.

It's sad because I've been on this site since 2008 (when I had my first Child, I posted a constantly in Due Sept 2008--I've been here forever, albeit changing my name often because of the tumultuous events in the years since becoming a mother).

MN was a place I felt safe. It helped me determine what help my DS needed and when he needed it. I felt safe (as a foreigner, MN was a place I learned more about the UK, as a wife, I learned about relationships, as a mother I learned about being a mother.)

I'm sorry I ever felt I could come here and ask a simple question. I hope this thread can turn into a positive place with positive discussion instead of wild mud slinging.

A poster earlier said something along the lines of only eating pork because it's not halal. This has hurt me, and I can't even explain why. I suppose it makes me feel that this site isn't hospitable to everyone...and that is a shame.

This is a forum, we as women get to use it to ask questions, to interact and grow. The ugly things I have read on this thread alone fills me with shame.

OP, It's because fur is known to most people to be horrific. Even non animal-lovers, meat-eaters, leather wearers...the least educated/underprivileged people, to people to the extremely affluent and successful people, regardless of any background, upbringing or religion most people do not agree with fur or support it. And most people who have posted know that . It's a very unpopular opinion that fur-wearing is anything other than an awful thing to do.

You've began a thread about it as if you didn't know or care about this and It's surprising and shocking to the majority.For this reason it wasn't a 'simple question'. I am sure you've asked questions in the past and not received this reaction.It's the nature of the question, not the fact that you asked a question.

Apologies, I don't know how that extra 'to people' got in there!

OP, from your posts it looks like you want carte blanche to ask anything you want without having to consider whether what you say will offend or upset other people.

In addition, some of your posts have been very patronising and rather controlling towards other posters who are expressing heartfelt and informed views on an emotive subject.

Now you say that you are hurt and upset by the views others have expressed and the questions they have asked you.

Comes across very much as if you want the privilege of everyone taking the time and trouble to consider your feelings at every opportunity without having to take the time and trouble to consider the feelings of others in return.

I cannot see why you would expect that attitude to go down well.

Are you all absolutely sure that leather is a by product of the beef industry? Lady time there was a fur discussion someone said not and various web pages seem to agree