tell me about fur

[hydeparkhottie]

but I don't want to pay ridiculous amounts for it...why is it soo expensive? I've seen it on ebay and at markets for cheap cheap--and then everywhere else, it's super duper expensive...

whats the difference?

I would argue that Possum fur is ethical. You can wear it without guilt

I feel the same way about fur as I do about eating meat.

I'm happy to eat meat when I am confident that it's been ethically produced.

I wouldn't have a problem wearing fur that was a by-product of something else (eg rabbits that have been ethically farmed for meat).

However, with animals like mink, fox, squirrels etc, there is no way of farming them ethically - keeping them in captivity puts them under huge amounts of stress, and fur from wild animals is by definition trapped, which is barbaric.

The way the animals are killed is another question. The methods of slaughter used in abattoirs aren't appropriate, as they'd cause too much damage to the animal's skin.

And yes, you only get fur from a dead animal.

slug I used to think possum fur was okay, but they trap them, don't they?

The difference in price is due to the animal welfare conditions - that's why it's possible to buy cheap fur from China, but Saga Fur from Norway/Sweden is expensive.

China's attitude to animal welfare is quite appalling but then their attitude to humanity isn't that great either.

Saga Furs has a film showing one of their farms on their website, and you can also find filming inside a Norwegian Fur Farm on the TV programme "Kill It, Skin It, Wear It" which shows a rather more humane approach to fur.

Fur is a commodity and actually, there is little waste from the industry - the carcasses go to make bio-diesel or for animal food.

As for animal treatment - sickly and ill fur animals give poor quality fur. It doesn't make financial sense to treat fur animals badly, so good husbandry is a key part for many fur farmers.

Fake fur is made from products from the petro-chemical industry, which is quite harmful to marine animals, but they're not cute and fluffy so don't have many people speaking out on their behalf.

The ethics of any clothing are much more complex than fur bad/man made good.

Of course, one could also argue that by wearing fake fur, one is perpetuating the idea of fur as a fashion item.

I'm also very concerned (and always check the label) when buying cheap high-street garments that have a fur trim, as it's actually just as likely to be very cheaply sourced real fur (usually dog) as synthetic.

They do not "shave the sheep" to make sheepskin Uggs. They are sheepskin. Skin!

Hottie

I might be being a touch dim here but when you said:

I only just got a chance to think about it. Until recently, I have been quite busy with an outrageously busy life

WTAF did you mean? My face did this . I really don't understand how you have only just got a chance to think about it. Frankly I have never sat down and thought "ooh I know, today I'll think about the ethical considerations around wearing fur". I am not trying to be unkind, but surely you would have been better to discuss this within your circle?

You've started a debate on an emotive subject and then you go on to say:

please don't slate me. I really am as thick as I sound. I would google, but I don't want to see any scary pictures/gory videos. I would totally be interested in any documentaries that explain it all

You don't want to see scary pictures/gory videos? I am sorry lovey but that is EXACTLY what the fur trade is - it is scary pictures and gory videos.

What did you expect the response to your discussion to be? I would genuinely be interested to know what you hoped to hear.

hydeparkhottie - here is the thing though, and I'm really not trying to be harsh here. If you don't want to be ignorant about an issue - especially an issue as controversial as the fur trade - then you need to suck it up and actually do some research about it. It's kind of pointless to say "I want to know if it's really that cruel" but refuse to do a google search because you already know the sorts of things you will see!!

The documentaries will be just as gory as anything you can see online. They pretty much want to serve the same purpose as showing people the truth behind things. They don't try and pretty it up to allow for people's sensitivities. Blimey, "Our Daily Bread" is one of the most horrific documentaries I've seen (it's about the food industry not fur).

We have vintage fur coats at home (two, to be precise) which were my great grandmothers. None of us have ever worn them, and they might have even been thrown out.

Frankly, there is never any excuse to wear fur unless - at the absolute limit - you live in the depths of Siberia or in the arctic circle. Fur is cruelty at its most pronounced. It's completely and utterly pointless, very expensive, and based on the suffering and slaughter of large numbers of animals (how many mink do you think it takes to make one coat?) which often don't even feature in the food chain.

For people who compare fur to mass produced meat or battery eggs..it's a very tired comparison and doesn't even work very well.

How many people do you know that actively seek out battery eggs? I don't know anyone who eats battery eggs unless they simply can't afford to buy free range ones. The difference in price is undebatable. The same for shitty meat.

People aren't actively seeking out immoral products just for the fun and kudos behind them - they are buying those things because they can't afford the ethical alternatives. Sure, you could argue that if they can't afford the ethical stuff then they shouldn't be eating them at all, and to me personally that would be the ideal - but then you are denying people those things simply because of their level of income, which is pretty classist. Eggs especially are a staple product, and it's pretty difficult to find alternatives. Being a vegan for example is not a cheap lifestyle, and it takes a fuckton of time and effort (I tried being vegan and had to stop after a month). Unless you have the luxury of time to shop around, and to cook everything from scratch then it isn't a very practical diet.

Fake fur on the other hand is pretty much cruelty free (for animals at least), the coats and other clothing are often absolutely beautiful, and frankly, they ARE very warm if you go for decent quality. They are also an absolute fraction of the cost.

So what possible reason do people have to wear real fur? Absolutely none whatsoever aside from pretentious demonstrations of wealth and a complete lack of conscience.

Surely no one is so thick they don't realise sheep skin is well....skin ? I take back my earlier post about someone really being that ignorant. No way is this for real.

Fur isn't the only thing that can be 'faked'

Yes Amethyst they do trap them. They are noxious animals though, they totally destroy the native flora and fauna. Bear in mind NZ's flora and birds are utterly unique. Possums eat the growing tops of many of NZ's native and unique ferns and trees. They also eat bird eggs and destroy nests.

During the 80s when PETA and the anti fur movement rally took off, possum furs were no longer worth any money (trapping them was something many people, including students, would do small time for extra cash) and people stopped trapping. The result was a massive boom in the possum numbers, the forests started to suffer and the population of kiwi and other native birds crashed. The govt resorted to poisoning which, unfortunately, is a bit indiscriminate and the poisons enter the food cycle, affecting more than just the targeted possums. Trapping, while it may appear on the surface to be brutal, is actually the quickest and most targeted way of keeping the numbers down. The possum fur industry supports good trapping practices because good traps mean intact good quality furs.

Go for vintage.

good god almighty. You clearly have access to the internet so why on earth don't you try googling the subject?

Possums are classed as a pest in NZ, aren't they? I remember guides telling us about it. Nice and cute in Oz, pain in the arse in NZ.

OP...please tell us how old you are.

How interesting, Slug. I knew possums were evil buggers.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angora_wool

I also don't buy anything containing angora in it.

I agree with WorldGoneCrazy in the complexities of clothing production (and food production).

However big fashion houses/couture will fuel the demand for an item. They can afford to buy the best (supposed ethically/best practise produced) and charge accordingly. This then filters down to the high street which can't support the price, so cuts are made. Quality, type of pelt and in sourcing/production and labour of workers.

Fur for fur is not the same as fur as by-product ie raindeer or sheepskin. I would argue that the majority of these animals lead an outdoor life. Rabbit on the other hand...

The fur produced by the 'best practise' companies will be a tiny percentage of the total fur market and will be bought by the higher end consumers. The production of this fur (especially in the EU) will have restrictions and checks placed on it. Although these animals are cared for - food, water, shelter, (minimal) vetenary care etc... their life is caged and not natural. No interaction with others of their species - battery farmed. So then we come to the non-regulated fur market, which is where the majority of what's found on the high street comes from...

We all make choices based on self imposed categories eg. price/availability/how much you like the item/environmental/ethical. It's what weighting you give each that ultimately decides your purchase.

Personally, I don't buy fur and I do judge others for wearing it.

It adds another layer to the dilemma, doesn't it, when the animal is evil but so is the method of controlling it.

I won't wear down, either.

OP, ultimately only you can make your mind up about what is and isn't acceptable to you. No one here is going to give you permission to wear fur or forbid you from wearing it. As you can see, almost everyone on this thread has thought about the issue and made choices that are morally acceptable to them. If I were you, I'd do the same.

hydepark

The cashmere/ wool production process cant be more different than the fur production one, its like night and day,
First ,cashmere or wool,are shaved ,combed,or sheared, then it goes into cleaning process and then transformed into yarn, and yarn into garment,

With fur you can't do that, you can't shave the animal,the fur is so fine, you need the whole pelt to hold the thing together, or else it will fall quick,

I think for all of us who lived through the 80's when the whole PETA campaign took off it seems ridiculous and almost impossible that someone could not know about the fur trade. I was reading this thread with an open mouth.

However, if the OP is younger then she might not have been aware of that, if say she was born in the 80's or was a young child.

OP, fur is vile, and only beautiful on those that grew it. I am not vegetarian and I would judge anyone who wore real fur.

There is an awful lot of real fur around nowadays though - it is definitely becoming more common to see people wearing it.

I just don't think some people realise when someone is wearing real fur as the assumption is that it is faux.

My coat hood is fur, would never have bought it if I had known. I am a child of the 80's so vividly remember the PETA campaign. I don't shop in shops or move in circles where fur is present so I really had no idea. I can't afford another coat and mine will last years and years so I just have to keep my mouth shut. If I were to sell it or throw it away it would be even more of a waste of an animal.

If I saw a vintage fur coat and liked it then I would buy it.

But I think it's an outdated thing and shouldn't be allowed anymore (apart from indigenous peoples.)

A bit like ivory whereby you can have a piece that's 100 years old and it's a covetable item whereas not only is new ivory illegal - people turn up their noses at it as well.

I don't see the point in wasting a fur.

Also a friend of mine is a milliner/designer who makes items out of road kill.

Again- it's something that would otherwise go to waste so should absolutely be used IMHO.

I was born in 1987. I'm not ignorant about the fur industry. Far from it.

I'm not joking.

justputyourshoesonnow put away your sarcasm please.