The reverse and another perspective

[SandyY2K]

I saw this on another forum and a lot of the content sounded so familiar in terms of what SMs say.

Are you quick to assume your stepkid’s mum is High-Conflict, just because she challenges an opinion or decision of your husband’s?

Do you read every email/text between her and your husband? Are you helping him craft every response? Are you responding on his behalf?

Have you put rules in place about how often, or by what means, your husband is allowed to communicate with her?

Do you think you’re a better parent than her? More importantly, do you tell people that?

Do you badmouth her in public? To colleagues? In-laws? In front of the kids?

Is everything her fault? Do you think that your life would be “perfect” if she wasn’t in the picture?

Do you demand to attend all exchanges, school functions, or sporting events if she is going to be there? Even if you know it could cause extreme conflict? But, just because you want your presence known?

Tips to become a Low-Conflict Stepmom

In all decision making, consider her perspective. Your take on a situation is not always right, and sometimes, more heads are better than one.A difference of opinion in parenting does not mean that she is “high-conflict.

@Getawaywithit - you've missed my point completely!
I'm not saying mums don't work hard & I'm not saying all dads are saints.
My point - in the context of this thread & the points it has raised - is that there are some fathers who are left with no option but to reduce contact in order to work more to make sufficient money to provide for their dc.

[quote Tattler2]@LittleMysSister
You a right about the "dynamic" not rigid and fixed. I think that the problem is that the children who have had to make a change and accept a new normal after their parents split are the ones who are expected to once again to be flexible and adjust to what becomes their third or fourth new normal . Each new partner can bring new needs and new expectations to the relationship. Should the children be so elastic that they can and should be the rubber band in mom or dad's new relationships. Who gets to determines when the relationship is so meaningful or potentially long lasting that it warrants requiring yet another new adjustment on the part of the fixed players in this situation?

In the past 6 years, my neighbor has had 3 what he has described as serious relationships. 2 of the 3 very nice ladies moved in and held themselves out to be his fiancee and step mom to his children. The children were expected to adjust to each new relationship. At what point should this man be capable of saying " what I am doing is what I want/intend to do, if you want to be with me ,recognize that this is how I function " ?

Certainly, he is entitled to a personal life and his new partner is entitled to expectations of the relationship, but at what point does it become unreasonable for either of them to expect their entitlement to be purchased or acquired at a cost to the existing parenting relationship?[/quote]
Again, this is up to the parent isn't it. It is not any new partner's fault if that person has been with people before them and changed things with regards to the children.

Most parents do not bring a string of people into their children's life though.

@Tattler2

If the new partners are aware that the new relationships are transactional and that the cost of being with the man is to provide housing for his children and to become his prn childcare provided, when then do they complain when they are treated not as a participant in a transactional relationship rather than a love interest?

That may be among the saddest reasons for tolerating that which makes you unhappy. Hearing this makes me think that many people were better off in arranged marriages that tended to last longer and produce far fewer issues.

If people lose so much after a divorce and have no possibility of repositioning themselves short of becoming a party to one of these transactional situations, why then do so many go on to have her another child or children? Is a child the gift that a man gives to his second wife or second partner in gratitude for helping him to meet his obligations to his older children?

That all sounds so sad and bleak. That should be all of the motivation that any woman needs to strive to be financially independent, self supporting, without having to become a part of such a sad dynamic.

Well, exactly? They complain about it because they weren't aware that's how their partner would see it, obviously...

Personally? If I was the person in this situation, I would take the job that afforded me more contact. And then go back to court to get maintenance levels revisited. It’s not the easiest of routes, but it is available and doable.

No judge in the Uk can force anyone into a higher paid job. Nor can they un anyway penalise someone who can physically no longer afford ridiculous spousal maintenance costs. If you don’t have the money, you can’t pay.

Forces a non working ex to get work. And if the ex then starts to say they are struggling to make ends meet? Well the parent has a job that allows them to increase contact and take on more hands on / real help with childcare/ child related costs and raising their child.

This outdated notion of one parent works outside the home to pay the bills with another taking on full childcare responsibilities and becoming (medium to longer term) completely unemployable needs to stop.

I would never sign up to this sort of arrangement with a man. I cannot fathom why so many people do. It’s nuts.

@sassbott

Personally? If I was the person in this situation, I would take the job that afforded me more contact. And then go back to court to get maintenance levels revisited. It’s not the easiest of routes, but it is available and doable.

No judge in the Uk can force anyone into a higher paid job. Nor can they un anyway penalise someone who can physically no longer afford ridiculous spousal maintenance costs. If you don’t have the money, you can’t pay.

Forces a non working ex to get work. And if the ex then starts to say they are struggling to make ends meet? Well the parent has a job that allows them to increase contact and take on more hands on / real help with childcare/ child related costs and raising their child.

This outdated notion of one parent works outside the home to pay the bills with another taking on full childcare responsibilities and becoming (medium to longer term) completely unemployable needs to stop.

I would never sign up to this sort of arrangement with a man. I cannot fathom why so many people do. It’s nuts.

The force might not be direct but just a reasonable, moral obligation to provide a decent standard of living for the kids.

And what about the decent moral obligation for both parents to provide a decent standard of living for the kids?

@sassbott

And what about the decent moral obligation for both parents to provide a decent standard of living for the kids?

That's fine in theory but if one parent won't work then the other must.

I would have zero moral compunction in taking a lower paid job and seeing my children more. If the alternative was working myself into an early grave so my ex could live off my earnings.

I’ve paid my ex spousal as a woman and I will always continue to pay/ help. Why? Because he works hard and does his absolute best to meet his moral responsibilities regards our children. If he sat on his ass all day and expected a hefty chunk of my income month in month out? Yeah, no, that wouldn’t work out well.

The obvious caveat here being if our children needed full time care/ had special needs. That is a very different scenario.

@KylieKoKo no. I would work enough to provide for myself. If that meant I stepped up and provided more for the children (in terms of contact/ staying contact), so be it.

I have first hand recent experience of this. A friend of mine was forced into a much lower paid job as a result of tax changes, then covid hit. Court ordered Spousal maintenance has stopped and guess what? The ex has finally gone and got a job. She is (and Always has been) perfectly employable. But why would she have got herself a job when she was being fully provided for by her exH? Plenty of parents work fulltime and juggle childcare. Especially divorced ones. Why there is a subset of humanity who walks amongst us who thinks these pressures and ‘moral’ duties don’t apply to them bemuses me

@sassbott I agree that both parents should take responsibility for their children and for themselves financially. However in a lot of cases people don't. Just read the posts from @Magda72!

Plenty of parents work fulltime and juggle childcare. Especially divorced ones

Agreed. However, as someone who has been single for a very long time now, my ex is very much at arm’s length and has no real understanding of what it means to parent and work. He’s never paid for childcare and has no idea what it costs. He’s never had to manage a child in a nursery, another in preschool and one in school, all in different locations with different start and end times. He’s never had to wait to get to the top of a school before/after school club waiting list. He hasn’t juggled child illness,his own illness and work. He hasn’t had to attend a breakfast meeting at short notice and find additional care or a late meeting and find additional care. He doesn’t manage our disabled child’s hospital appointments. He did, however, have something to say - and so did his partner - during the years I worked part time to make the impossible actually add up.

The problem is, you haven’t walked a mile in the ex’s shoes and rarely have an understanding of what she might be facing.

@Getawaywithit no one knows what it's like to be anyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've walked a mile in a step mothers shoes or a non resident parent's shoes.

Your ex sounds shit but I'm not sure how that relates to my situation as a step parent.

The problem is, you haven’t walked a mile in the ex’s shoes and rarely have an understanding of what she might be facing.

At the point SMs reach this forum, they are so busy fighting fires on all fronts that a quick cry for help is all they can muster. They won't be hanging out on the lone parents forum trying for perspective.

But @Getawaywithit , I suspect you also have only just stopped for breath in many years, so

If people lose so much after a divorce and have no possibility of repositioning themselves short of becoming a party to one of these transactional situations, why then do so many go on to have her another child or children? Is a child the gift that a man gives to his second wife or second partner in gratitude for helping him to meet his obligations to his older children?

Pretty much, yes. Otherwise a childless stepmum can effectively end up as handmaiden to the first family.

@sassbott

And what about the decent moral obligation for both parents to provide a decent standard of living for the kids?

Totally agree - but as we know some women chose the dynamic set during the marriage when kids were tiny as an excuse for that to continue forever and ever amen and judge the need to provide as the mans responsibility. It’s really difficult then for the man, who’s left with expectant kids who expect the same of him, to change that. Especially with the ex in the kids ears holding the Dad to account all by himself.

@SpaceshiptoMars
So by your perspective ,the childless SM signs on to marriage/relationship (in this case synonymous with indentured servitude) for purposes of getting a man and a child?

The obvious problem is that people enter into what should be serious commitments with people about whom they clearly know very little.

What kinds of questions and discussions are these people having before they marry or move in together? Most people inquire more about a used car that they are about to purchase than seemingly happens when moving in with the previously committed dad.

It is offensive to suggest that the new partner just blindly walks into an arrangement with no questions or discussions.

Perhaps if so many women did not think that dating or even living with a man who has children automatically makes you a step mother ,they might spend more time discussing expectations and views of parenting. They would then be in a position to make an informed choice before making a commitment.. What exactly are you committing to if you do not really know the person? Are you making a commitment to the person that he or she might be?

@HogDogKetchup
If a man or woman enters into a contractual agreement with a mortgage company to purchase a house, he can subsequently decide that he wants to purchase a second house maybe a vacation home. What he cannot arbitrarily do is decide to alter the amount or due date of the payments on his first home to suit the mortgage lender of his second home.

We all want new and different things at various times. All of those new and different things have to be fitted into our existing lives. If I were to accept a 2nd job, I could not go to the employer of my first job and insist that he let me leave work early because my new employer objects to my showing up obviously tired. I would certainly have to find a solution, but that solution couldn't be found at my first employer's expense.

So by your perspective ,the childless SM signs on to marriage/relationship (in this case synonymous with indentured servitude) for purposes of getting a man and a child?

I think the biological clock ticks, and a man with a pedigree (fertile, happy to be a father) becomes a more attractive option than an awkward bachelor who dislikes kids! In the beginning, the man's children and the ex are pretty much out of the picture, and the woman is in deep before the problems become apparent.

When the demands pile on from the first family, the new girlfriend firms up on her requirement for her own child. Partly because she feels seriously shortchanged, and to some extent to even up the power balance.

@spaceshiptoMars
What you are describing is probably the reality for some, but it is a sad commentary on reproductive responsibility and adult self sufficiency.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I can't laugh any harder at the idea of getting with OH so that I get a child

The obvious problem is that people enter into what should be serious commitments with people about whom they clearly know very little.

Like people having children with people they are unable to sustain a relationship with?

Ultimately if people only procreated with people they stayed with then none of this would be issue.

In the real world life isn't neat and things change. A agreement agreed with an ex 2 months after a split when both parties are single and the children are preschool isn't necessarily going to work til the children are 18 for a whole host of reasons.

@KylieKoKo

The obvious problem is that people enter into what should be serious commitments with people about whom they clearly know very little.

Like people having children with people they are unable to sustain a relationship with?

Ultimately if people only procreated with people they stayed with then none of this would be issue.

In the real world life isn't neat and things change. A agreement agreed with an ex 2 months after a split when both parties are single and the children are preschool isn't necessarily going to work til the children are 18 for a whole host of reasons.

Exactly!

The bottom line is, parents can't split from eachother and then expect to retain any kind of hold over the other's life. The split opens up positions for others to enter their children's lives, which can go well or poorly. But however it goes, only their own choices are within their control now.

When you split up with your children's other parent, both yourself and your children are somewhat at the mercy of your ex's choices. And he/she is at the mercy of yours. As such, it's surely reasonable to assume that agreements made can and will change through the years as jobs change, childcare arrangements change, people move, partners arrive, perhaps more children are born....There are so many factors that cause things to change once parents have split up.

[quote Tattler2]@HogDogKetchup
If a man or woman enters into a contractual agreement with a mortgage company to purchase a house, he can subsequently decide that he wants to purchase a second house maybe a vacation home. What he cannot arbitrarily do is decide to alter the amount or due date of the payments on his first home to suit the mortgage lender of his second home.

We all want new and different things at various times. All of those new and different things have to be fitted into our existing lives. If I were to accept a 2nd job, I could not go to the employer of my first job and insist that he let me leave work early because my new employer objects to my showing up obviously tired. I would certainly have to find a solution, but that solution couldn't be found at my first employer's expense.[/quote]
Are you just specifically talking about cases where what the new partner allegedly wants the dad to change, is the amount of maintenance he pays for the kids? Because that's the only thing that really fits the analogy. In terms of "The Dynamic", how things are done, how time is organised, what things they are bought as they get older, what the kids are fed etc etc etc, all the things people argue should never ever change on here.... none of that is something that has to be agreed upon with his ex as soon as they split and never altered, in fact the majority of those things are naturally subject to change. Change in circumstances, finances, as well as parenting approach and priorities.

Every compromise is a case by case case thing, obviously, and it's possible for the new partner to be unreasonable in the things they ask for. But it's also possible for them to be reasonable - and obviously people enter the situation expecting to be the latter. Either way, it is the dad's choice whether he thinks he can and should make any changes that arise by virtue of him being in a new relationship. The burden of whether to decide to do so or not is on him.

@sassbott I get where you're coming from but anecdotally - at least here in Ireland - that doesn't actually work. Reducing set maintenance is virtually impossible here & I know at least 2 men who tried to reduce maintenance having taken lower paid jobs in order to be geographically/physically available to their dc. In both cases neither was allowed reduce maintenance. The courts attitude was that because the pay reduction came about voluntarily (as opposed to demotion or unemployment) the maintenance should stay set. Both men have ex wives who don't work & once a divorce precedent is set here (amount of maintenance, status of primary carer etc.) it's very hard to change, as everything revolves around maintaining what was the status quo as per the initial divorce agreement for the children.
Likewise a man's maintenance here doesn't get reduced if he goes on to have more dc.
In many ways the Irish system greatly benefits children but it provides NO incentive or moral obligation for the primary carer to financially contribute to the dc unless they actively choose to.

@sassbott
The Irish system may be rigid in how it is applied but do men and women in Ireland not have any feelings or obligations to their children that are not Court mandated? What about moral beliefs and moral imperatives, do they not come in to play?

If I found a man with children living with his parents or roommates because he could not afford a place of his own, what would say to me that this is a man who can afford to or should father yet another child?

If you find an adult male who is both a parent and unable to provide an independent living space for himself and his children, you have found a man who cannot manage full adult responsibilities. He may be a perfectly adequate lover, companion, and friend and those are the attributes that he can bring to your table. If you cannot accept that as his sole contributions to your life, then you should probably move on to look for a different partner. You should not waste time blaming his ex nor resenting him for bringing less time or resources to your table. He and his circumstances are what they are and they are part and parcel of the man with whom you are voluntarily seeking to tie your life.