Holidays

[harryclr]

DP and I have argued a few times now about holidays.

We have a 7month old and he has a 5yr old DD from a previous relationship. I have expressed that whilst our baby is still young I'd like to go on a couple of more grown up breaks before he gets too old and our holidays have completely changed and are 100% revolved around children. Due to Covid we missed out on our baby moon and my birthday trip to Lisbon.

Is this selfish of me? I just think it would be nice to have time just us and our baby, as he doesn't speak or walk or have wants we are still able to go on a city break for example where he can be in the pram etc. A 5 year old needs constant entertaining and attention and the holiday completely changes. We can also be more intimate and affectionate and have more interesting/adult conversation when a 5yr old isn't around.

Does anyone think it's unreasonable of me?

He called me selfish and 'evil' and insists I want to leave his DD out and exclude her. He gets instantly defensive whenever I suggest anything, almost anything at all without her. He even went as far as to tell me where to go if I don't like it...I never said I never want to go on a family holiday, I am merely saying we have the opportunity at the moment to do a couple of different trips before our holidays are water parks, zoos and chips!

Is it selfish and unfair to just ask for some balance and compromise in this blended family?

I would only ever suggest to go away when DD is at her mums also, she is also at school.

Thanks x

@LiJo2015 see I don’t think there’s anything Seine with wanting a bit of time as a SP with just your own little family unit. It’s important to have this or it can end up being another failed marriage/relationship with kids involved.

As long as big family holidays the SCs are included, and the biological parent carves out some time for his other children then there shouldn’t be an issue.

We see so often on here that the children of first families need 1-2-1 time with their parent etc, which often means dad exclusively giving time to them... a thing the children and wives of 2nd families aren’t given.

It works both ways. Each individual relationship within a blended family situation needs to be nurtured. In this case the needs / wants of the OP should be met if it’s that important to her. She said is craving that time with her partner whilst their joint baby is too young to prevent the adult experience.

It’ll do no damage to a 5yo SC who doesn’t even need to know that dad and SM had a break away without her. It’ll only be an issue if dad makes it one.

People with children should not date if they aren’t willing to prioritise their partner also. If they are of the mindset “my kids always come first” then they are selfish to take a partner because from they are promising a relationship but then condemning them to be second place.

This. A million times over. @SpongebobNoPants I completely agree.
Children move up and down prioritisations. And IME it is the first wives club who are up in arms at the prospect of this. I actually wonder if one of them is my exboyf’s ex wife. It’s the kind of BS she pedals out non stop - that along with the fact her her darling precious children cannot possibly thrive unless she is present and with them and parenting them. I honestly look at her and think she has an undiagnosed mental illness - its not parenting, it’s a level of obsession that is completely unhealthy.

It’s not about entitlement or who goes on most holidays The latest child naturally gets special time with their parent because they live with them 24/7. And they’re never going to be left out of a family holiday because they went with their mum last month! Of course they should be equal. They usually are! All children from the same parent should be treated the same and included on a family holiday, whether they live there or not. Adults only or couples holidays are fine if the adults feel they want that, but you can’t take your own child then and call it a couples holiday.

From my memory of holidays with my stepson we had plenty of time for adult conversations while he was playing in the pool or asleep.

We do holidays with our DD and also holidays with our DD and my DSC. They also go on holidays with their mum obviously without DD.
Unless your DSC lives with you FT there is no reason not to have time together and time apart. Agree with pps though is your main issue is your DP speaking to you like that, unacceptable.

@SpongebobNoPants

You make a considered response however it is the thought process of wanting time with ones own little unit that can and sadly often does grow at the expense of the sc. you raise an excellent point with the importance of nurturing a family unit, but blended families are different and as such should be nurtured with consideration of stepchildren as if they are your own.

Laraluce

'If she was yours, would you leave her behind? I can't imagine leaving my elder child behind and taking the baby away. Dd would be devastated and so jealous. Leaving both children with family is a different matter.'

This 100%

*And it’s perfectly ok for SMs to want a bit of time away with just their partner and their own children.

Having SCs around often completely changes the family dynamic and adds a ton of pressure to the stepparent which I often think the biological parents forget as it’s their child and they don’t feel that way. It’s ok for stepparents to want a break from that sometimes, we’re only human.*

Very true. For christmas the year before last my parents bought myself, DP and DD tickets to the zoo. There was a little bit of noise from DP about us buying an extra ticket for my step son but frankly that would have been taking my Christmas present from something I would really enjoy, to something I wouldn't really enjoy. The whole day would have revolved around him and his constant need for attention, managing his behaviour (which is generally pretty poor on days out and usually ends in sulking so he takes very little positive away from the day, often the most frustrating part), not to mention I would have ended up having to chase after toddler DD unsupported all day as DP would have ended up doing the same with SS. When we share the load we can still have a relatively relaxed day.

Given that it was a gift from MY parents I wasn't willing to just write it off as something that wasnt going to be enjoyable for me because we had to bring SS. We take him on days out (before Covid at least), but neither me or DP actually get to enjoy them a vast majority of the time. And it always revolves totally around him due to his nature.

We went on a day he wasn't there and he never knew about it. I think this is something that the shocked people saying "you wouldn't do it with just one child if they weren't a sc, they will be devastated" fail to understand. Dynamics are different when the child is NR. Yes they are part of the family and loved equally by their parent etc etc but it does become far more natural to do some things without them when they aren't there a majority of the time, even (gasp) child friendly things they might enjoy. Especially when they are too young to really notice in order to be upset.

I made it very clear to DP that whilst of course we would do things with SS, I wasn't prepared to never enjoy a holiday/day out/special occasion again, so I wasn't prepared to ONLY do things with SS. He didn't have a problem with that and to date, neither does SS, who has never noticed.

@LiJo2015

I’m sorry, but again I disagree with you. What I have suggested firstly is nurturing the individual relationships within the family, rather than trying to force a family unit.

The “family unit” mindset is the biggest cause of relationship breakdowns in blended families because it can cause so much resentment.

By relationship breakdowns I’m not simply referring to the adult romantic partners’ relationship but those between the children, and also those between the children and stepparents.

Considering everyone’s individual emotional needs and wants and making balanced decisions is the only way blended families can work. You can’t blindly put a blanket rule that one member’s needs automatically outweigh those of another.

A healthy blended family dynamic will assess the needs of everybody involved and make decisions based on this. For example SCs want to go to the park but the baby needs feeding, so baby’s needs outweigh SCs wants.
Or SC needs new trainers but DC doesn’t... you don’t then spend equal amounts on each child to make it “fair” because it’s unnecessary and the other child doesn’t need new trainers.

Equality and equity are different things. As I said it’s a balancing act.

In this instance it will do the 5yo SC no emotional harm for her dad, SM & the baby to have a city break to cement their own relationship because firstly she doesn’t even need to know about it and secondly it’s not a trip she’d likely enjoy anyway.

Therefore by the dad refusing this trip then the balance of wants is off kilter. He is putting a blanket rule that his SCs needs/wants outweigh the emotional need or want of his partner even though it’ll cause zero emotional upset to the SC.

If it is because he doesn’t want to go away ever without his child then he needs to take a step back and assess whether his own want to include his child in the city break is more important then his partner’s want of a more adult trip.

I would suggest that in this case it isn’t as the OP has stated that they will do a family trip at some point which will be child focussed. Therefore restoring the balance as at some point everyone will have had their needs/wants satisfied.

A sofa near you and sponge Bob, these are general, theoretical arguments about balance and with some I agree, but I also feel they are a step parents way of nicely justifying exclusion of an already existing family. Yes of course stepparents can and should have a break, yes the SC could be a piece of work, yes of course they deserve a holiday with their partner alone, yes of course if the SC is 16 and wants to do his own thing noone is suggesting they insist to be clumped together. However I fear all these arguments are shadowing one fundamental issue herr, that is the stepparents doesn't feel the child is part of her family - closest number one family. Equal as her own child. The sp has signed up with the partner knowing she's 'joining' a family, not creating her own. Some poster said 'but that is adoption'. In a way the stepparent, when she or he marries (or whatever partnership of equivalence) the partner, is indeed accepting the partners child as her own. Otherwise a second class family membership is born for the stepchild, who existed, before the new partner came into her life. And here the op's sc is 5...an age where parental love can more easily or readily flourish. Here the op is not suggesting to go on a romantic break with the partner. She won't leave her baby behind. Shes purposefully wanting to take an action to create her family bubble against the wish of the father of the 5 year old other child. (yes father is wrong to call her names, but it doesn't divert from the real issue) Let me ask you to consider some other perspective: what if this 5 year old was living with them but another carer was available. Should op suggest leaving the 5 year old and going with her baby and partner? And what would be your thoughts if mum of 5 year old wasn't around, would you still say it is unreasonable to expect love from a sp but 'hopefully like and care for' ? Just asking these to understand the real issues from a sp' s perspective, and curiosity.

Let me ask you to consider some other perspective: what if this 5 year old was living with them but another carer was available. Should op suggest leaving the 5 year old and going with her baby and partner? And what would be your thoughts if mum of 5 year old wasn't around, would you still say it is unreasonable to expect love from a sp but 'hopefully like and care for' ? Just asking these to understand the real issues from a sp' s perspective, and curiosity

To be clear I am not just giving these views as a stepparent but also as a parent who’s partner is also a stepparent. I am not advocating excluding stepchildren, but I am also not advocating including all children or members of a blended family at all times. Neither of those offer a healthy dynamic.

The scenario you posted is irrelevant to the OP. If you choose to date someone who has sole physical custody of their child then your level of involvement with that child will obviously be greater. You are more likely to accept and be expected to take on a parental role with all the trappings that come with that.

If you are dating a NR father then you are unlikely to be expected or want to take on a maternal role... least of all because they have a biological mother who would object.

If the child lived with the OP and her partner then yes, it would be cruel to exclude them. But there’s isn’t the situation here.
There’s absolutely no reason why they couldn’t book a few days away during their usual non-contact time. The SC will not be adversely affected and will not be emotionally distressed because she doesn’t even need to be made aware that the trip took place.

I don’t inform my SCs whenever my DP and I do something with my DCs when they’re not here.

It’s one trip and the 5yo wouldn’t enjoy it anyway.

@Balabomy there's a lot to unpick from your comment, but this part stood out to me.

However I fear all these arguments are shadowing one fundamental issue herr, that is the stepparents doesn't feel the child is part of her family - closest number one family. Equal as her own child.

I don't see this as an issue. No, I don't really see my step child as part of my "closest number one family", certainly not equal to my own child. I respect that my partner does which is what matters. To me, he is akin to being part of my wider family. I'm sorry if that is upsetting to you but on a personal level, that is reality.

The sp has signed up with the partner knowing she's 'joining' a family, not creating her own.

This comment comes up a lot on this forum and I find it really odd, like people just really want step mothers to admit their "place". Well, sorry to disappoint on that regard but when I met my partner he was a separated dad with nowhere to live and an increasingly angst filled relationship with his son that he saw EOW. We certainly did create our own family, into the fold of which SS was brought. Neither of us view things as me joining "his" family.

As I said in my previous comment, there is a reality to having a NR child that can be hard for people not in that position to understand. My step son is absent for a vast majority of the things we do, so of course there isn't a sense of us not being complete when he isn't there. There is a special place in my partner's heart for things that involve us all, but that's about the extent of it.

If the SC was living with the parent full time I would unlikely to advocate doing as many things with one DC and not the other (though I still believe there are times and contexts in which this is perfectly normal), and that's exactly the point. It's NOT the same when the child lives elsewhere 90% of the time. Plus, frankly, I wouldn't be in the relationship if he had him full time. Not what I signed up for.

Of course YANBU. Surely your 5 Yr DD will do nice trips and holidays with her mum that your younger child won't be invited too?

In a way the stepparent, when she or he marries (or whatever partnership of equivalence) the partner, is indeed accepting the partners child as her own. Otherwise a second class family membership is born for the stepchild, who existed, before the new partner came into her life.

Things change in life. They change in children’s lives all the time.

That doesn’t mean a woman entering into a relationship with a man with kids has to see those kids as their own etc.

It actually means that you are creating a completely different kind of family unit. You are not trying to replicate a nuclear family. A blended family is necessarily much more complex and the relationships within it it will be different. That is just the way it is.

No good comes from trying to impose nuclear family roles and norms on a blended family. It’s like insisting that your brother behaves like a parent rather than an uncle because he’s chosen to come and visit.

Hi OP what you propose is exactly what we had booked last year but had to be cancelled due to Covid.. We had an adult/baby holiday booked then a very family orientated holiday booked with DSC. DH was a bit unsure at first but we have always done two holidays a year and only one of them with DSC so I don't see it as any different.. have to say though that I intend to keep that up with the two holidays as DH exwife has to us we cannot now have a holiday without DSC as we have a child so she must come on all our holidays!! Just makes me more adamant there will be two holidays.. but then I'm stubborn and refuse to be told what I can and can't do by his exwife!!

When people decide to reproduce inherent in that decision is or should be the recognition and realization that they are decided to create a life whose needs will take precedent over their own. They are creating a primary obligation and a responsibility .We can have an endless number of partners and as long as we do it legally we can remarry an endless number of times, and in that endless number of opportunity and possibility any commitment ends when we decide that relationship no longer matters or continues.

The only relationships that cannot be severed at whim or fancy are the blood and familial bonds. Nature and the Law have designated the natural connection and the primacy of these relationships. We all know from ext that we can survive the separation from a partner or spouse and within a short or longer period find another partner or spouse and move right along. Nature nor the Law provides us with a means or methodology of acquiring a replacement child.

It is naive and disingenuous to enter into a relationship with someone who has a child and to think that the needs and even the wants of that child will not have significant standing in the way that the prospective spouse or partner will make decisions.

A person who needs to be first should not become involved with a person who has children . There is nothing wrong with wanting to be first, but it is absurd to enter a situation where it is impossible for you to always or maybe ever be first and then to be upset when you have to deal with the never hidden reality.

A person who cannot deal with equal and sometimes secondary standing is not a person who should be entering in a relationship where there are existing children. Any relationship where you were not first in time will mean that you will not always be first inline.

I didn’t feel part of any family with my ex until my dc was born. His child wasn’t the glue that brought me and ex together, it was our shared child who did.
They had each other, and I’m sure in time I would have seen them both as family if I never had a child of my own. But DS’s arrival truly did bring us all together overnight and ultimately a new family was created. I never saw dsc as “mine” though.

@Balabomy Each blended family is so different from the next. Shared DC or not, DC from one side or both, contact and residency days and time.

In each situation the dynamic will be completely different, in particular the needs and wants of the children from their step-parent will be different. This will also of course be affected by the personalities of all involved and what the exes provide for the children.

I know if I tried to act like my DSC were my own - their DM would have something strong to say about it. My DC would too - they look to me as their DM and they need to know that they are my priority. Much as my DSC’s also have a DM who they know prioritises them.

Neither do I want my ex-DP’s current partner trying to mother my DC or treat them as her own. She has a positive but different relationship with them. I see that as a good thing, that they are able to form positive relationships with the other adults in their lives - without having to see them as a quasi-parent for whom they must always come first.

In OP’s situation DSD is not around all the time. She won’t be being left out because she would not be there anyway. Of course if she lived with OP full time that would be a different situation - but imo it would still be understandable for OP to want and need some time and space with her own DC.

The sp has signed up with the partner knowing she's 'joining' a family, not creating her own.

I also have a problem with this comment. When two adults get together they are creating something new. OP has a complete loss of agency if you follow this logic - she’s simply meant to fall in and accept how everything is done already - no person could do that and stay sane for long? It is possible to create something new being respectful of the needs of all involved, but that also has to include OP’s needs and there is nothing wrong with that. That doesn’t mean that anyone always has to ‘come first’ - but just that everyone’s needs are considered and balanced in a sensitive and sensible way.

In a way the stepparent, when she or he marries (or whatever partnership of equivalence) the partner, is indeed accepting the partners child as her own. Otherwise a second class family membership is born for the stepchild, who existed, before the new partner came into her life.
This is where it all goes wrong - unreasonable expectations which cause pain and hurt when they are unfulfilled.
My DSD is as important to her mother and father as she ever was, she’s not second class anything just because her fathers wife doesn’t think of her as another child of hers. The only reason she would feel like that would be if she were lead to believe that we should be having a mother-daughter relationship and the fact that we don’t must be a failing in me, or worse - in herself.

@Tiredoftattler

When people decide to reproduce inherent in that decision is or should be the recognition and realization that they are decided to create a life whose needs will take precedent over their own

Yes over their own, but not necessarily every other person in household. OP is also not SCs parent and only has that obligation to her own child.

It is naive and disingenuous to enter into a relationship with someone who has a child and to think that the needs and even the wants of that child will not have significant standing in the way that the prospective spouse or partner will make decisions

No one is disputing this. But the wants of children should not (at least in healthy parenting) always come before the wants of the adults. Parents or not.

A person who needs to be first should not become involved with a person who has children . There is nothing wrong with wanting to be first, but it is absurd to enter a situation where it is impossible for you to always or maybe ever be first and then to be upset when you have to deal with the never hidden reality

There is no reason why parents cannot also prioritise the wants of their partner. I would never settle for being automatically 2nd best to anyone but I also don’t insist on being 1st.
There is a balance that can be found where sometimes the DCs wants are satisfied and sometimes the adults.
If you aren’t willing to do that for a partner then you are selfish if you consider dating.

Any relationship where you were not first in time will mean that you will not always be first inline

What utter nonsense. It’s this mindset that causes the children of 2nd marriages to feel “less than” for simply coming after their elder half siblings.

I actually make a concerted effort to not make my stepkids or partner feel like this. They came into my life after my DC after all

Take both or none.

If you had two children you wouldn’t take one and leave them at home, so you shouldn’t expect him to.

If you broke up and he had a baby with someone else and took that baby on holiday and not your child, you would be furious.

YABU

That’s a lot of assumptions @Sassysally12!

My ex’s ex wife told me in the early days:

“you’ll never be (dsc’s) mum.”

I wasn’t even trying to be! It was when she found out I was pregnant and she was threatened that I might try and “steal” her child too.

Then as time went on she took every opportunity she could to ram her child down my throat. I remember on my first Mother’s Day when ds was about a month old. She was collecting from our house one day a few days later, and saw my card from ds. She went on to ask why her child wasn’t included And it kind of went on from there! I spent years dealing with unreasonable nit picks and requests which is rich seeing as she said I’ll never be her child’s mum. And I agreed wholeheartedly with her, hence why I had my boundaries!

Talk to any professional involved in step parenting.
They will categorically advise that this so called notion of ‘blending’ is both nigh on impossible and also fraught with difficulties.

Each family should retain its own unit.
The parent who brings their children to a relationship are a unit.
The couple are a unit.
Any subsequent joint children are then a separate family.

Each unit will have distinct needs. The prioritisation of Which will move up and down based on what is happening on a wider level.
The notion that everyone should be equal/ treated as one is ridiculous. And what places individuals in these situations under so much pressure.

Non resident children have their own needs with their Nr parent.
Resident children have their own needs with their resident parent.
Joint children have their needs with their parents.
Then the couple have their needs as intimate partners.

Neither one trumps the other in importance. And all should at some point come first.

@Youseethethingis My DSD is as important to her mother and father as she ever was, she’s not second class anything just because her fathers wife doesn’t think of her as another child of hers. The only reason she would feel like that would be if she were lead to believe that we should be having a mother-daughter relationship and the fact that we don’t must be a failing in me, or worse - in herself.
This is a great point. I think an awful lot can go wrong because of unrealistic and unnecessary expectations of SPs, most commonly SM’s!

@SpongebobNoPants I wouldn’t say two accounts for ‘alot’ but okay. The OP asked for opinions, that was mine. I feel if she thinks if the shoe were on the other foot how would she feel, you don’t have to be her bouncer