AIBU

[Fianceechickie]

Aibu to wonder why women who aren't step mums... are even reading the step parenting threads let alone feel qualified to comment and give advice to women who are and who are struggling in very difficult situations? So much condemnation and lack of empathy. You can barely get through a whole thread without reading such comments. Makes me so cross. Anyone know if there's a Facebook support/discussion group original similar place to get non judgmental support from other step mums? If not I think I might start one!

Erm (scratches head in disbelief) ....'spineless effwit ex' doesn't help, funnily enough. Especially after just saying people older than 11 can choose their responses. No excuse.

[Signs off exasperated, seeking bed or wine, or both, pondering the meaning of life and what hashtag best suits this thread ]

To me this has been about their insecurity, they desperately wanted more attention from spineless effwit and did not want to say/do anything that might mean thye lost more contact

That may not be the case at all - even DCs with the most supportive of parents can struggle with transition - have you read the recent research by The Centre for Separated Families?

Going against the grain here at a bit, but actually think it's ok for lookluv to refer to her Ex as a fuckwit on here, doesn't mean she is expressing that opinion in real life (outside a close circle) or in front of her DC.

Not much more to add, it's a deep thread that deserves some attention and I've had champagne! And it's been marvellous no children for two nights in a row to celebrate a special event and it's bloody great!!! Have utterly zero guilt as I know DP and I are good parents (despite I didn't give birth to them) and kids are very much loved which they know.

They could easily have made my life hard and the relationship difficult but they haven't. I don't really see why some posters excuse terrible behaviour as not being kids fault. They don't choose the situation but they can choose their response.
They haven't must likely because they were happy with the situation they found themselves in. When they are not happy, it's all different. My kids have also made it good for their SM. They are easy children, the type that every teacher love. They leave the worse of their behaviour to me! She has also been a good SM in that she has never got involved in disciplining them beyond what they were used to with me and their dad.

The problem often comes when kids are suddenly expected to change their attitude/behaviour with the arrival of their SM. It is exactly like the same when you work for a company, get along great with your bosses, they are happy with your work, and you feel happy to come to work. Suddenly you get a new boss who decides that your work is of poor quality and start telling you directly, or by influencing the other bosses that you need to change your ways.

You really have no choice because they are your line manager, but resentment sets in because you don't understand why you should change when everything was fine before. Yes, in a perfect world, you work through it, communicate, come up with a compromise, but often, you leave the company. Kids can't do that.

The problem often comes when kids are suddenly expected to change their attitude/behaviour with the arrival of their SM

Hmm, tricky one - yes, all too often the arrival of a stepmum does change the way in which a dad parents, but that isn't necessarily the stepmums "fault".

It could be that dad has been a Disney dad - throwing his spare time and money into creating a theme park type atmosphere for his DCs in the absence of anything else in his life. A new relationship creates a different perspective for him and he begins to back off and returns to a more balanced parenting style A that the DCs may never have experienced from him since their parents split.

The other thing that often happens is that the stepmums parenting style is observed by the DCs dad and he actually learns from it and decides to try some of it himself. Generally, fathers, particularly NRDads have less opportunities to see how others parent - they remain parenting the way their ex did because that's the only way they know.

It's only when they see a new partner parenting in a different way that they develop the confidence to change.

To use your "boss" analogy - it's like a new boss coming in with different methods, and your old bosses deciding to give them a go - even tough it might mean there are different expectations of the staff.

Hmm, tricky one - yes, all too often the arrival of a stepmum does change the way in which a dad parents, but that isn't necessarily the stepmums "fault".
I agree, but in an immature young mind, they will see it as black and white, ie. all was fine before, SM arrives, things changes in a way I don't like, therefore it's her fault, therefore I don't like it and will show it to her.

I personally hate, really hate this 'disney dad' reference. I have never heard it except from the mouth of SMs who are not happy with the way their partner's discipline their kids. There is no right or wrong way to discipline and it is often only years later that you can decide whether the way you've disciplined your kids was best or not. As a principle, I think dads should be left to discipline their own kids as they believe is appropriate, whether it perceived as too lenient or too severe, however, I totally respect that when it is vastly different to how a SM discipline or would discipline her own kids, it is going to cause a problem.

This is exactly why I strongly believe that getting together with a man who has children should mean taking things even slower than you would otherwise. This matter is one that my OH and I discussed on our 3rd date I think, because it was extremely important we were going to be on the same wavelength on this. He previously had been in a relationship where he couldn't stand the DD's behaviour and the way she was disciplining her. It highly contributed to the end of the relationship. He needed to be sure that I was 'strict' enough and my kids well behaved. From my perspective, I needed to be clear that I would not accept him imposing his discipline to my kids, so really there was only one way forward and that was to agree in the first place! Thankfully we did, and indeed, it was part of us realising that we share similar values and principles in life which I grow to realise is as important as love to make a relationship work.

Even then it is not easy because lovely kids become grumpy teenagers and well, you have to love them deeply in the first place to cope with some of their behaviour! However, our relationship has grow so that we can communicate and reach compromises to make it work.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with dads adapting some of their parenting style learning from a new SM, as long as this happens because they see the benefits rather than doing it for a 'quiet life' - and I have to say that I have heard a number of dads admitting that they do go along with their new partner because they can't cope with the constant grumpiness and nagging otherwise - and it is done in a such a way that kids have time to adjust to it.

As a rule, whether a parent, step-parent, teacher, I do think that kids will respond very well to any discipline as long as it comes with gratification, usually by actions/behaviour that will raise the kids' self-esteem. My kids' SM will ask them to do things they don't want to do, but she is also extremely complimentary of them, so the balance is there. My SM was much stricter (and had higher expectations) than my dad AND my mum who were much more similar in their approach to discipline. I was quite an easy child though and adjusted without problems to stricter teachers. The problem though was that my SM was only always ever critical. I don't remember seeing any long of pride or love in her eyes, always these disapproving looks and rarely a nice world except for when I was fully compliant to her demands, and then it came across to me as defiant to prove her point.

The reality is that if you don't like someone, however much you think you are hiding it, that person will feel it and respond to it. Kids are extremely perceptive, maybe because their verbal communication skills are not as developed so they pay even more attention to basic signs which as adults we are not forcibly aware of.

I personally hate, really hate this 'disney dad' reference. I have never heard it except from the mouth of SMs who are not happy with the way their partner's discipline their kids

Disney Dad is about a lot more than discipline. It's a US phrase that is commonly used in family therapy and even family law.

It's about an attitude of creating a 'holiday-type' environment for the DCs during every contact period.

Not only does that manifest itself in setting aside things like bedtime routine (it doesn't matter if you don't brush your teeth just this once) and a balanced diet (donuts for breakie, hotdog for lunch, fish and chips for tea) but also in an almost frenetic attempt by the dad to ensure the DCs are constantly engaged in some form of once-in-a-lifetime activity. In my DHs case, that was a 3 hour period in which crazy golf, bowling, pedalos, donuts and burgers all featured. I explained that while he was welcome to indulge his DCs as he wished, I wasn't prepared to be a part of that.

Discipline form a part of it - over looking behavioural transgressions is all part of a holiday, after all - but lenient parenting is not Disney parenting in the true sense if the term.

I don't remember seeing any long of pride or love in her eyes, always these disapproving looks and rarely a nice world

For a different child, perceptions of love, or overt displays of approval would lead to conflict in their mind and rejection of the stepparent.

Many DCs emotionally struggle with the fact that their parents aren't together anymore, a stepparent is often viewed as a barrier to reconciliation - even if they know, logically, that it's not going to happen.
In those cases, a stepparent really can do no right for wrong. They care to much or not enough. They are too involved or too distant.

There are some really interesting narratives from stepchildren in research carried out in Canada, US and more recently here in the UK in which they explain how they would deliberately engineer situations that allowed them to justify 'not liking' their stepparent. Things like deliberately soiling, making demands that they knew were unreasonable and more overt things like stealing.

Re. Disney dad. My experience is that there are many 'disney dads' even in non step-parenting family. My OH was like this even when we were together, but it seems to become more of an issue in step families. I think my issue is that I see it labelled very quickly as the ONE problem explaining conflict whereas I see it as a potential contributors, potentially, amongst others.

Thinking of it, I think I have always naturally turned into a bit of a Disney mum over the week-ends because our weeks have always been so structured (kids had to be up at 6:30, out of the door by 7:30, dropped to nursery at 8am, picked up between 5 and 6pm, then there was homework, dinner, clearing up, bath before bedtime), so yes, weekends were naturally much more relaxed in regards to rules.

I do agree totally though that it is about some balance. What you describe on a every other week-end basis seems totally disproportionate.

For a different child, perceptions of love, or overt displays of approval would lead to conflict in their mind and rejection of the stepparent
I have to admit I don't understand this at all. Love was probably not the right word to use though, affection would be more appropriate, or care, if you can express care through facial expression!

What I refer to is things like expressing congratulation with good school results even if these are better than one's own kids (as was the case for my children), showing an interest with their lives at home with mum, their friends, their activities, telling them that they were nice when they did a particular good action, asking them about a particular event that meant a lot to them etc...

I am sure they are as many research supporting children acting out in spite for their SP as much as there will be research showing that SP unconsciously reject their SC automatically. I personally believe that children are naturally good and when they are not, it is the responsibility of the adult to change their behaviour to influence good behaviour in the child. It has nothing to do with being a SP, I have taken that approach with my own kids and it has always worked so far. When my son was a total pain in the bum and I really took his horrible behaviour personally (because I did get the worse of it by far), my instinct was to be confrontational, but instead, I decided to try to understand why my normally lovely son was behaving as such and upon reflection, I realised that some things in his life was really upsetting him. He wouldn't have expressed it though, but when I talked to him about it and changed my ways taking this into circumstances, things became so much better.

As a whole, I just really don't like to blame kids, until they become older teenagers for any tensions in any family but that's my psychological stand on childhood behaviour!

What I refer to is things like expressing congratulation with good school results even if these are better than one's own kids (as was the case for my children), showing an interest with their lives at home with mum, their friends, their activities, telling them that they were nice when they did a particular good action, asking them about a particular event that meant a lot to them etc...

All of those things, offered by a stepmum, can cause a DC incredible conflict and distress. Conflict because of loyalty to their mum, conflict because they want their parents back together.

They don't WANT to like their stepmum, they don't WANT her to do nice things for them. It makes it easier for many stepDCs if their DSMum is the stereotypical "wicked" stepmum, because then they don't feel guilty for having negative thoughts about her.

It's a horrid position to be in, and even when well supported by both parents can still cause distress and anxiety. In those cases, it is much better for a stepmum to back off and respect the needs of the DC rather than force the issue. In grateful that my DDs stepmum has.

Much of it is good old fashioned sexism. Society in general holds women accountable for sex, morals and family life. Men are usually considered bystanders. So while stepfathers get respect for stepping up and raising 'another man's kids', women are seen as manipulative interlopers, using the helpless man as a pawn in her machinations.

This is how stepmothers have been portrayed throughout history. It's always easier to blame a woman wherever possible than to hold a man accountable for his own actions, and to expect him to make reasonable, rational choices on behalf of his own kids.

They don't WANT to like their stepmum, they don't WANT her to do nice things for them. It makes it easier for many stepDCs if their DSMum is the stereotypical "wicked" stepmum, because then they don't feel guilty for having negative thoughts about her.
I guess that's where we massively disagree. You seem to have a very negative overview of children's feelings. I think children are mostly reactive to their environment and react much more instinctively then through a clear thought process.

Take a 4yo. I don't believe they have developed the mental capacity to go through the thought process that they should feel guilty for liking their step-mum and therefore organise a campaign of hate, involving specific behaviours just to express there disapproval towards their SM.

I also don't agree with you Morris. I think most step-dad find it much easier because they don't feel the same need to control their step-children behaviour. If they disapprove, they are much more likely to take a step back and not get involved at all, whereas step-mums are more likely to expect changes. These are all generalisations though.

Saying that, we are focusing here on families when step-parenting doesn't work well. My kids have many friends whose parents are separated/divorced (such a contrast to my growing up when I was the only one with divorced parents!) and only a few have issues, in most cases, it works not just well but very well. My kids have even stayed overnight on a number of occasions at their step-siblings dad's house (ie. the ex of their step-mum!) and he treats them brilliantly!

I guess that's where we massively disagree. You seem to have a very negative overview of children's feelings. I think children are mostly reactive to their environment and react much more instinctively then through a clear thought process.

Take a 4yo. I don't believe they have developed the mental capacity to go through the thought process that they should feel guilty for liking their step-mum and therefore organise a campaign of hate, involving specific behaviours just to express there disapproval towards their SM.

You're not disagreeing with me, though, swing. You are disagreeing with the findings of professionals in the field of child psychology who have made it their life work to support DC's in these situations.

Stepfamily Relationships: Development, Dynamics, and Interventions
By Lawrence H. Ganong, Marilyn Coleman

psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1994-01472-001

constanceahrons.com/Ahrons%20%20Long-term%20Implications.pdf

I appreciate it's not "trendy" to accept the word of experts these days, but when it comes to the welfare of DC's I'm not confident enough in my own "gut instinct" to disregard it.

Disney Dad is about a lot more than discipline. It's a US phrase that is commonly used in family therapy and even family law.

It's about an attitude of creating a 'holiday-type' environment for the DCs during every contact period.

I completely get the above. My step children are generally very good. But are very hectic, and do not clear up after themselves always.

Plus my OH feels he has to spend every second with them (rather then them perhaps occupy themselves for a while) so this means I get no help with our DD. And on our weekends all the boring stuff has to be done (going to tip etc)

You're not disagreeing with me, though, swing. You are disagreeing with the findings of professionals in the field of child psychology who have made it their life work to support DC's in these situations.

I didn't want to mention it because I think I am mainly talking from my personal experience (which includes the experience of those people I am close to) but I've studied Child Psychology for my degree in the States and worked my first 5 years with children who were made wards of the court, any age from 6 to 18, so I do think I have some education and professional experience behind me. I have worked with very disturbed children and seeing how they can go from 'the child from hell' to a child who is happy and compliant in just a few months has made me believe that a happy child is a child who learns they are worthy of being loved and respected is a child who will then in turn give love and respect.

The reason why I don't bring in so called 'experts' is because what I learnt in my studies is that for any expert claiming one thing, you will have another claiming the exact opposite. I have also gone on to study Public Health and I've learnt that no study is worth much when it comes to evidence that isn't at least a case control study, and even many of these are debatable. That's what experts like most, debate their findings!

I completely get the above. My step children are generally very good. But are very hectic, and do not clear up after themselves always.
Sounds just like my kids!

Plus my OH feels he has to spend every second with them (rather then them perhaps occupy themselves for a while) so this means I get no help with our DD.
Sounds just like me! Then again, I work FT and long hours so don't get to spend as much time with my kids as the average mother does, so when I do, I make the most of it.

I am happy to call myself a Disney mum by this definition, but can't see how this is a bad thing as indeed, my kids are good kids, if not perfect.

what I learnt in my studies is that for any expert claiming one thing, you will have another claiming the exact opposite.

So are there experts refuting the findings I linked to above? I've read extensively around the subject and haven't found anything published.

I don't really want to get into arguments about research findings etc... because I think it takes you away from what forums are about, that is individual cases when research tend to provide trends, statistics which doesn't mean that it applies to every child anyway so might have no relevance at all to the child in question.

Still, I clicked on one of your link (the second one) and all I can read from the abstract is ' problems MAY emerge' 'adolescence is a time in which there is LIKELY to be the greatest difficulties', ' a development contextual model -which is not statistically reliable - was used to examine SOME of the risks...'

The abstract alone makes me have little faith in the validity of the findings.

By the way, I am not saying that what is described as a Disney Dad doesn't exist, what I refute is that each time a SM has an issue with a child' behaviour, it is identified as a problem which is then blamed on the father taking a more lenient and attention giving role as a dad. As I've said, I think many dads and mums could fall under that description, divorced/separated or not, and most of those kids don't have any issues.

what I refute is that each time a SM has an issue with a child' behaviour, it is identified as a problem which is then blamed on the father taking a more lenient and attention giving role as a dad

I agree

:)

Thanks for the article NN, I found it interesting. We can debate and compare the merits of various studies and yes, we can suffer expert-fatigue, but I do believe it's important to have some basic awareness of family research, even at face value (especially stepfamily research, especially longitudinal).

When you talked about DCs not wanting to like SMs, that made sense to me as an emotional by-product of the family dynamic - I was like, what's not to understand? I thought you were kind of saying '... despite themselves, some DC's don't want to like SMs' After all, lots of adult step children post, on this forum, that they didn't get on with their stepparents, or are relieved not to have to deal with them anymore. That was my experience too, not wanting anything to do with my stepdad when I was a kid; I couldn't conceive of liking and accepting him (as I did my dad) at all, and was confused when I sometimes did, not realising then that guilt and internal conflict is part of being human.

I think it's worth saying that many of us have direct parental experience and/or expert insight (e.g. specialising in child development / education), but we don't always know everything about our own or other people's children, especially emotionally. I'll never forget my really lovely colleague bursting into tears at work, telling me when she realised her divorce had affected her child more than she realised. This is a grounded, intelligent, articulate, approachable woman who spent loads of time with her children (both older teens) informing and checking in with them throughout the whole process, but a teacher told her one parents evening that her son had been confiding in her regularly after school about the divorce.

I notice similar at the youth group where I volunteer, too. We have great fun of course, but it is sobering when the kids open up with deep stuff about themselves and their world, that their parents have no idea of - nothing harmful - just revealing.

Once upon a time parents had several kids - perhaps more scope for sibling rivalry? Now kids have several parents - .....

I find the concept of DCs not WANTING to like their SM interesting.

Mine needed reassurance and security - my eldest is now able to vocalise the feelings and is beginning to understand them.

The issue for them was, a woman they had known since birth, had had them round for tea, sleep overs and was lovely to them - turned into a silent shunning vindictive person and their spineless DF chose to ignore what everyone else was seeing and always side with her and did not protect them. This was not about liking this was trying to work out what had changed.

Incidentally, I have never not even once called their DF a spineless effwit infront of them or actually to anyone. other than on this forum. I have never denigrated him, slagged him off, raised my eyebrows - just said Daddy loves you - he is just a bit stuck at the moment.

I personally think sainthood is imminent on that score. They love their new sibs because I spent hours bigging it up, making them look for little presents, always include them in conversation about how fun and great it was going to be, present buying etc Effwit did nothing other than tell them on another auspicious day in our family that she was pregnant. No preparation, no warning just dumped.

We now work on the - this is your sibs mother would you like it if X was rude about me, then do not say anything bad about her. Difficult to justify to a child who ahs had explosive diarrhoea on numerous occasions because of her actions!

I have cared for and done more for my step kids than their mother for the last 7 years. And possibly with one of them their father too.

There, I've said it! But it's true. I've looked out for them, cooked for them, tidied up after them, provided school and careers advice, taken care of them while they were ill, the works.

I got less and less back from them as they grew up, became adults, became closer to their mum again. Until I now have no relationship at all with any of them, and they are not part of their half brother's life at all.

Other kids, with a different set of parents, different dynamics, I may have done the same and had a lovely relationship.

But as a step mother that is sometimes just the way it is. The children probably do feel conflicted, their loyalty is first and foremost with their mother, no matter what. I represent what their mother isn't, what their Dad has chosen over their mother, and an outside point of view. Not every child has a nature that can be generous enough to accept that.

P.s. Not the OW!

Bananas - you sound very much like me.

Having done so much for my step kids (some full time), to then feel that rejection when they choose their useless mother over you.

Of course, she's their mother and of course, they should love her.

However, I do find it hard to take that these "adults" still TAKE from us financially, emotionally and practically, whilst choosing to only GIVE financially, emotionally and practically to their mother. It is ok for us to do all the donkey work of parenting without any of the reward. In fact, we are expected to facilitate their lives so they can give to Mum whilst never giving consideration to the poor sods who are run ragged doing it all!

Every relationship in life is give and take except for step parenting, it seems.