please please help really scared

[scarlettandrhett]

DH and I have our own DS and DH has a DD my DSD.

Getting contact was horrendous as ex stopped all contact when she found out about me. I was not the OW. I met DH long after they split up, they were not married.
During the court hearing and out of the blue, she phones me and wants a agreement over contact that we can put before the judge. The suggestion she gave was what DH had wanted. The judge stamped the order.
My gut was telling me that as long as DH played by her rules, all would be ok but if he stepped out of line, all hell would break loose.

Contact was great for the next 3 years. We got DSD more than the court order stated. I became ex "new best friend" and DH and I played her game.

Last month, DH made a geniune mistake over drop off and she went nuts, calling DH every name under the son. DH had had enough and told her so. Yes, contact was stopped, all attempts at communication were stopped.

About 3 hours ago, she came to our door and said she wanted to sort it out. Like a fool, I let her in.
I cannot believe what happened next and even as I write this I feel that I will wake up from a dream.

She proceded to tell us if we take her back to court, she will say DH was abusing DSD. She said that even though it is not true the fallout will affect our own DS. She said she will go to SS with these claims and will say she has real fears for my DS as well. She will go to the police and ensure our DS is removed from our home until an investigation is completed. She said she will tell SS that was why she stopped contact. She is a teacher and knows what do. I thought DH was going to go for her. She was calm, not shouting, screaming, just very calm and smiled through it all.

I cannot believe this is happening, I cannot even find the words to describe it. After she said this, it is all a haze, she walked out our home them. What do we do? What happens. I am really scared now.

I have changed my name

I think Dwerf has it. Her explanation is the best.

Yes, I think dwerf is spot on there.

Maybe just add a bit about how you will now be doing exactly as the judge said, so all the adults know where they stand, and you both think this is great as it means you can share in birthdays and Christmas.

Or something.

I would use Jux words. It's a sanitised version of the truth suitable for a 12/13 yo. My personal view is that you almost have to tell her how serious exw actions were that the police were involved to avoid DSD blaming DF. If you get it wrong and down play the wrongdoing, the likely outcome is DSD will be made to take sides and as it will look like you both overreacted if you choose an overly sanitised explanation, she will side with her DM.

Scarlett

I know that he has now said he will discuss it in the morning when DS is out, but this was his initial reaction to be asked something by his DD...

DH told her that was not something he was prepared to discuss with her but no, he did not get the ex arrested. DSD then wants to know what happpened and why. Again DH explained that it was not up for discussion

Until she asked you this was his stand on it and I don't think that's right and obviously neither do you, but I think your DH needs to look at his reaction to her, HIS, not what you have sorted out. He needs to understand she is getting older and 'I'm not discussing this with you' isn't nice & isn't going to build up trust.

I would honestly tell her the truth. 13 year olds aren't stupid. They will hear things out & about, her mother will be telling her all kinds of shite. She needs the truth from you both, she needs to be able to trust you and that means the whole truth, not lying by omission. Anything you 'fudge' t be 'child friendly' will only come back to bite you on the bum. Do not say it was an arguement, it wasn't! Don't say adults sometimes regret saying things... her mother doesn't!

I would avoid laying blame, and not say anything about her mothers actions. Simply say that there was a disagreement, but that since there is a court order the police were able to make sure that everyone is reminded of the terms of the court order and that it should be adhered to, so that's what everyone is going to do. Explain that strictly, no changes should be made to e arrangements unde the court order unless a judge agrees that the order should be amended.

I think you need to be open and honest to your dsd about what happened and why it happen. As dsd is nearly 13 she probably has a very good idea of what her mum thinks about her dad unfortunately.

Yes using what both Dwerf and Maryz have said.

I agree she needs to be told the truth in factual, calm way.

All she is getting from her mother is histrionic nonsense. She's asking for the truth. Tell her.

Jux words were good I agree.

Good luck

I would not say there was an argument or disagreement as DSD may well repeat what she has been told. The Ex will cease on these words and will try and use them in her favour.

All she is getting from her mother is histrionic nonsense. She's asking for the truth. Tell her.

Agreed.

My 15 yo dd would not have trusted some anodyne little speech when she was 13. It would have been chalked up as dh and I not telling her the truth, treating her as a baby and a reason to lose a little trust in us. You know your dsd and how much of the truth she can understand and in what terms you present it to her.

She cannot afford to lose trust in you. That she has asked at all shows she is not taking her mother's version at face value so does not entirely trust her. Who else does she have in her life on whom she can rely and in whom she can trust? You and dh. Don't let her down by treating her as baby.

you absolutely must tell her the age appropriate truth.

anything else will eventually come back to bite you as when the truth comes out, she'll know you lied to her.

the other thing is that DSD must know that her DM isn't innocent in this and that Scarlett has absolute reason to keep this woman far away from her.

this woman isn't a good mother, she isn't a good person and the sooner this child knows how to protect herself (even if unknowingly) the better.

by papering over these cracks, a truly manipulative individual may unleash real harm on an innocent child. it's not about actively underminging the realtionship between a child and her mother, it's about enabling the child to live as healthily as possible.

my ex was abusive. I felt that it was vital that he didn't grow up as a man idolising or aspiring to be his father. I wasn't about to be the one to blame for him going. an age appropriate truth, always, is what has lead to our relationship being strong and him being emotionally secure enough to overcome all kinds of adversity and change. he loves his dad, but understands very well why he had to live somewhere else.

even at 5, he said to me 'it's because he shouted at mummy too much isn't it?' they know. they know more than you think.

consider this: if DSD truly believed her dad was a monster to arrest her dm, she'd not feel secure/safe enough to ask him about it. she's heard something, and she trusts him enough to raise the subject.

you must tell her the truth. she knows about subkects such as inappropriate touching, about talking to adults about things such as this, about talking about fears, so she knoes it's wrong.

she will also know it's wrong to lie about it.

choose the language well, talk about it tonight to plan how you'll explain it, but make sure she knows you're telling the truth and that you'll respond to all her questions honestly.

you will need to have a family meeting too, to bring DS up to an appropriate speed. it's not right to cover this up from him.

I agree with those above pointing out that by asking your DH, she is seeking the truth - she a. knows there's more to the story and/or doesn't really believe her mum and b. trusts your DH enough to ask plainly what's going on.

At 13, this is a reasonable enquiry, and you need to step up and give her as MUCH of the truth as possible. How you do that of course depends on you and your knowledge of her levels of maturity, but please don't fob her off, I think it will backfire.

I think personally I would tell her the whole story save for the details of exactly what the ex threatened - maybe 'threatened to report that we weren't looking after you and DS properly, which would mean that he was taken away and we weren't allowed to see you, unless we agreed to not argue with her when she refused to let you see us. That's bullying and a horrible thing to threaten. We did what you ALWAYS should do with bullying which is to tell the people in charge about it. We told the police so that they could visit and tell Mum that she very much wasn't allowed to behave like that and that she too had to follow the court order which sets out exactly when and for how long you have the right to visit us and your brother. So she was NOT arrested...' Etc.

The developments here are very, very worrying. So firstly this girl's mother and main carer makes the kind of threats that would mean her own daughter going through questioning and examinations that most parents would be horrified at the thought of, in addition to orchestrating the destruction of her relationship with her dad and other family. Horrific, but one could argue that she actually had no intention of making those threats - that although absolutely sickening, she actually didn't intend for her daughter to know about or be affected by her despicable threats.

Now however, when thwarted, her next action HAS been to involve her daughter. She's already tried to damage her relationship with her dad and other family by blocking contact, now when that's tackled, she starts lying to her daughter and bringing her into this situation, making it likely that she will actually get to hear of the threats that were made? Horrific.

Additionally, the lies she's telling her - I was arrested - are going to be frightening and unsettling for her daughter to hear. So she's got no compunction in actually upsetting and frightening her in order to continue with this attack on contact and your family.

This would be the point where I would start thinking that the best thing for your DSD would be a return to court and either a request for a change in residency or at least 50/50 contact. This woman has shown now that she is, at best, a poor parent. I'm sure your DH is absolutely gutted at the quality of mother she's revealed herself to be. It sounds as if she would be better off with you; aside from that, I think this continued, aggressively damaging approach needs to be countered, and this might be the only way to do it - I don't think that anything less than possibly the fear of losing residency of her daughter is going to get her to stop acting in a way that will eventually damage her.

You now have good grounds to go back to court not just to get the order adhered to, but to change it in your favour and I would absolutely now consider that doing that would be in your DSD's best interests.

Dsd now wants to live with us.

I will try and recant as much as possibe.

After DG dropped of DS at his foorball, his parents came round. We had told DSD that would happen as she is very very close to her grandpa. We want them to be there to help support DSD.

DH basically told her everything. Right from when contact was stopped and we had to go to court to get an order. DSD was already aware of that. The ex had told her her version of the court battle.

DH then told her that the incident on Saturday night was because the ex had stopped Dsd from coming to see her dad.

DH explained that her mum came round and made some very nasty threats towards him, myself and DS. DSD then asked what was said. DH told her that her mum threatened to say that he had hurt DSD and hit her, that her mother said she was report DH and that DS would be taken away.

DSD got quite emotional at that and said that DH had never hurt her or hit her and why would her mother say that. DH said he did not know why she did it, maybe it was because she did not want Dsd to see him but he thought it would be better to let the police know. That was why the police went round to see her mum.

He explained that he also went to a lawyer as her mum was not sticking to the court order that a judge had put in place to make sure that DSD got to spend time with her dad as well.

DH showed DSD the court order and she asked why we did not see her on b'days and Xmas. DH explained that was why he went to see a laywer to the lawyer could tell her mum that she (the ex) had to do what the court order said and allow Dsd to see her dad every other b'day and xmas

DSD said she had wanted to spend some Xmas with us but her mum said we go away. DSD grandpa said that was not true and they came to our house at Xmas.

Everyone was a bit emotional but thank god my inlaws were there as DSD sat with her papa the whole time with her arms around him

She then asked if she would be in trouble when she went home and that she did not want to go home. She was very angry and upset with her mum but also quite scared. Turns out that her mum told her we had gone away on one of the weekends we were meant to have her last month and then DS was sick. DH told her no that was not true and her papa confirmed it.

She now says she does not want to go back home because her mother told her that we would tell her a pack of lies of what happened on Saturday night and that because I was really angry at as well.

DSD is wise beyond her years and so very mature. She has gone from being very upset to being angry to now saying she would prefer to live her as she does not trust her mother very much.

We told her we would need to talk to someone about her living her. We loved her very much and would love to have her live her but it needed to be done the right way. She has told us she is not going home tomorrow.

DH has suggested going to the police again, advising them of what has happened and DSD is refusing to go home. The last thing we need is the police at our door and DH getting into trouble for not returning DSD.

DH is going to call his solicitor on Monday and go to court to see if he can get an emergency hearing.

We don't know what else to do. Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do before we speak to the solictor and what to tell the ex as to why Dsd refuses to come home?

What I'm about to say will go against everything you've said in your posts but I think it's the best way forward.

If DSD still feels the same tomorrow I would invite the ex over to your house (along with grandparents as they clearly offer support and stability to DSD) and explain what has been said. DO NOT exclude DSD from the meeting - she now knows everything and needs to be aware of future events and developments.

Explain to ex that DSD would like some time with her dad and, short of physically dragging DSD from your house, she will not be moved.

Also, tell the ex everything that you have told DSD today - by doing this you are reinforcing to DSD that what you've said is the truth. If the ex refutes any of it she can talk about it in front of you all.

Explain that DSD will be spending the next birthday and Christmas with you as that is a) her wish and b) the court ruling. Also tell ex how disappointed you are that she has lied to DSD with the sole intention of damaging the father/daughter relationship.

Also record the meeting on your phones - very important for possible future issues.

Can she stay with her grandparents for a few days (or longer)? That wouldn't be quite such a red rag to her mother as staying with dh, but would still allow dsd some time to herself while she digests everything.

How would her mum react to that, do you think?

Well done you two! Sounds like it went as well as something like that can. Agree that you will have to tell ds too.

I disagree with what Fairy has said, this is effectively making DSD choose between her patents in front of everybody and could cause serious long term damage. It would serious pressure on DSD and whilst she is mature for her age she is still a child and shouldn't be put in this position.

Personally I think the best way to handle this is speak to the Police as you have suggested so they don't turn up at your doorstep following a phone all from the ex ( who would probably love to do to get her own back), then your DH calmly phones the ex informs her if the situation, tell her you have spoken to the police and will be seeking legal advice on Monday. Make sure the inlaws are with you the night DSD is due to go back so that if she turns up to make a scene you have more witnesses.

Scarlett

Well done, all of you.

I said right at the beginning that I didn't think living with her mother was a good thing for her, so I'm not at all surprised she's come to that conclusion herself.

If it was me I'd post in legal and see if anyone can help.

Failing getting any advice I would call the police and tell them what has happened. Ask them if they have anyone they could spare to go with DH (& maybe DSD) sometime over the weekend to collect some of her stuff & inform EXwife that you will be contacting your solicitor on Monday morning re DSD moving in with you. IF the police can't/wont/aren't able to do this, then at least get the GP's to go with him and record the whole thing.

Her Mother has NO ONE to blame but herself for this situation. No one.

I disagree with fairy too, the last thing I would do is invite her into your home again and I would not have a Big Family Showdown where DSD is stuck in the middle, that would be horrific.

DSD needs to see her Dad (& you) taking control & not being manipulated by her mother. She's 13, she needs her Dad to 'sort this' not make her the ham in the sandwich.

Thank you.

I agree Chipping but it breaks my heart that she is so angry with her mum. This is NOT what we wanted.

We both wanted DSD to know what had happened but we do not want her to turn against her mum, despite what the ex has done.

We would be delighted if dsd moved in with us. She already has her own room and her "stuff" in it. She would not need to change schools or anything like that.

I know she is very angry at the moment but I dont want her to rush into anything she may regret later.

I have also told her that while I am angry at her mum and dont want to see her right now, that may change later.

She followed me upstairs earlier and ask me if I was ok with her living here and that she won't be a bother. It was all I could do not to cry. I told her this is her home as well and to never ever doubt that I would not be ok with it.

I donot want to replace her mum. Regardless of what has happened, I truly believe that her mother loves her very much and would be devasted if DSD moved out. As much as I despise what the ex had done, I would not wish that on anyone

Scarlett I have no advice as to whether DSD should stay with your DH.

But I do think your DH needs to see DSD head teacher/Head of year about what has happened this last week, so hopefully A) they can monitor DSD and support her B) they will have an independent person that DSD can talk to.

scarlett I know it's not what you wanted, BUT what you have to know, truly KNOW is that YOU haven't done this, her mother hit the self destruct button.

You haven't turned her against her Mum, her Mum has acted horribly to DSD as well as you both, and DSD can see that, she has every right to know what happened, she has every right to know she was lied to about contact, about you and her DAD not wanting to see her on her birthdays & at christmas and you can bet there is more going on at home that DSD is not happy with.

Her Mum has blown everything up grand style, you are just mopping up the pieces.

There is nothing to stop her staying 'this week' and making a long term decision later on. But I wouldn't make her go back to her mothers.

She followed me upstairs earlier and ask me if I was ok with her living here and that she won't be a bother

I would have cried - you did well! I bet her mother has been filling her head with all kinds of crap about you not wanting her there :(

Her mother is responsible for this, she is responsible for her daughter not wanting to live with her. Her mother has to be the one to heal that rift, you can't. You can't minimise her mothers actions to make DSD feel better, because you wont make her feel better you will make her feel confused and she wont be able to trust her own judgment.

If she lives with you, then you just need to let her know that her Mum will always be her Mum, faults and all and there there isn't any competition at all. She can live where she wants, she can love all of you and she can talk about her mum at your house.

what an awful situation. So glad you have your in laws support. I would explain again to your DSD that you completely understand that she is very agnry with her Mum but it would be best if this was done through the courts and you will support her with whatever decision she makes and at 13 her views will be taken into account.

The longer she stays away from her Mum the harder it is going to be for your DSD when she does have to see her. Could you run through your DSD the things she would like to say to her Mum? The letter exercise where she writes it all down but doesn't send or actually say it?