DP and babysitting - are we being unreasonable?

[FlyingBlind]

A bit of context for you. About six weeks ago BM said she wanted to stop evening visits with us (6.00 until 8.00 one night in the week), and have DP go to hers to see the kids (DSD's 9, 3, 12m) while she goes out. She says having the kids here for an evening is too disruptive as she struggles to get the into bed early enough.

After trying it out for a while we want to go back to having the kids, the reasons being:

1. DP babysitting there blurs the boundaries between what's acceptable behaviour with Mum and what's ok with Dad (we are much hotter on table manners etc)
2. BM takes the opportunity to undermine DP's parenting in front of the girls
3. The place is a tip and DP can't find anything. Formula, PJ's, nappies, wipes are always disappeared somewhere...
4. BM is always later than planned coming back and as DP goes there straight from work he hasn't been getting anything to eat until 8.30 - 9.00 pm
5. I draw the line at going with him to BM's house to sit the kids as I feel very uncomfortable there, so I've only seen the DSD's EOW for the last couple of months

We've always said that we would rather have the kids here, they can stay overnight and we'll get them all to where they need to go the following morning so BM can have a proper night off, but she won't have it.

Is DP unreasonable to say he won't sit over there any more?

Does anyone else have an arrangement like this?

Shit! Now I'm derailing the thread!

Ah OP, you have fallen foul of the 'BM' trap.

Lots of people here find it offensive. (Understandably). I think it is a trap fallen into because it is accepted language on other forums, but it is guaranteed to get peoples backs up.

In future I would steer clear. :).

To the matter in hand, I have to agree that midweek overnights are a nightmare. When DSDs mum decided (for 2 weeks) that she wanted to have her overnight once in the week, it was such a pain. She was tired, emotionally rung out, had a massive change in routine and it was hideous. Luckily it was too much like hard work for mum anyway and didn't last.

I think that DP might need yo suck this one up. If he wants yo see his children perhaps at the moment this is the best way to do it - to be frank, if I wasn't living with DS I'd grab every opportunity with birth hands, even if it wasn't ideal. Perhaps you can do this for now explaining that next year if so when the baby is older you will be asking for every weekend or something.

Bloody iPhone - ignore the typos!

sitting in someone else's house to facilitate them having a night out is babysitting whether or not they're your own children

That's not what's happening in the OPs case though is it.

It is contact at the childrens main home to cut out travelling etc.

Not babysitting.

A few bells are ringing with me in this post.

1: Your DP babysitting? He is spending time with his children. What their mum gets up to in that time is none of his business providing it doesn't impact on the children.

My ex has our DD and DH and I go out. Likewise, when DH's children are with us, his ex goes out (sometimes on nights out with friends or partner) does that mean we're babysitters too?

It's a chance of a break and believe me you relish that time as a single parent - especially as a mum of 3 so close and young.

2: How exactly does she undermine his parenting?

3: She has three young children and is a single mother...I'm sure she has more important pressing issues instead of making sure the place is like a show home for when her ex turns up. How exactly does it impact on her ability as a mum?

You'd hate to be at mine when all our kids - mine, dh and i's and his children are all together. Sometimes it looks like a bomb's been let off.

4: Tell your DP to pick up a microwave meal/sandwich or even if his ex doesn't mind cook and eat with the kids.

5: It is only for 2 hours. There is no need for you to be there. It's healthy for parents to have one-on-one with their children. Let's face it - 2 hours is bugger all.

For example in that time you could run yourself a bath, have a nice long soak in peace and he'd be back before you'd even got out.

First and foremost it's about what's best for the children (not what suits you or your dp). Being so young they may find it more comfortable being in their home environment. This split must be relatively new if the baby is only 12 months old (even if she left when pregnant). It's a lot to take in for such small children. You have to accommodate what's best for them - not what suits and what you want.

Couldn't agree with you more TheWinterOne.

There is something about OP's post that really makes me cross. I don't know why it makes me cross, but it does. I think you have to be really careful when you meet someone with children not to overstep or interfere with the relationship between the actual parents and the children.

I come at this from both sides, I am with someone who has a DD and I have a DS myself with my ex. I don't get involved with maintenance payments, contact arrangements, schooling etc etc etc of his DD. She has two parents who do all of that stuff already. And even if one of them was not fulfilling their parental duties in some way it would not be for me to comment or get involved. Because she is not my child.

This doesn't mean I don't care about her, because I do, but I respect her parents and their right to parent her as they see fit.

I think that this is what annoys me about OP's OP. There is a lot of what she doesn't like/doesn't want to happen in the post and not a lot about what the parents or children want. As someone else said earlier, this is a relatively new relationship. It takes time to be included as family. What you do or say now will impact on how the relationship is with the children and the ex and your DP going forward.

Wow! I'm new here and, Jesus, am I glad I haven't started a thread yet because I'd have probably used "BM" to describe dsd's mum (due to not knowing any different until this thread)!

Anyway, I think the midweek overnight stay would be a great solution in a few years. My dsd stays with us Sunday, Wednesday and Friday and has done since she was 4 and its just routine now. She's 7 now, BTW.

In the meantime, I think your dp should just suck it up. It's only a couple of hours and he can grab a bite to eat on the way or something, surely? It's sad that you don't get to spend the midweek visit with dp and the dsc, but you still have time with them eow and you can make that count :)

In part I understand her point that getting the children back after 8pm and then having to put them to bed etc is very late in the week, especially for the younger ones. My XH takes my DC out in the evening and is supposed to return them for 7pm but even that I find late to start baths etc for 3 and 2 year old.

However, I have offered overnight stays midweek numerous times as it would be better for the children, but my XH refuses as it is too much hassle to get them where they need to be the following morning. If you are prepared to do school/nursery drops as needed, I'd push for the overnight visit as I don't see anything unreasonable about this, I'd jump at it!

Hope you find something that works, I have definitely found midweek visits the most challenging to deal with as children are so young and work commitments make them so late - as appears in your situation.

I'm really at a loss to know why midweek contact is pursued, in circumstances where no one benefits? If it causes real headaches for parents, and/or means the child is very late to bed, or has a ridiculously early start the following day - simply to facilitate 1 or 2 hours (at most) contact time. What is the point? I had to watch DH do this for years with his son, it was insane, but both DH and the ex insisted it had to happen. Common sense rarely prevails around access.

I think that midweek contact is a good idea in principle but I personally think that daytime contact - for example, after school pick up or, if possible, lunch - is better if overnight contact is going to involve more logistics than conversation.

I agree Bonsoir. However a weekday lunch time or after school pick-up can be almost impossible to accommodate if you work full time.

I agree that it is often difficult to enact but I also think that families don't even think about alternatives to overnighters.

In France, where having lunch with DC is a lot more common than in England, many parents choose to have contact this way with their non-resident DC and think that one-on-one time over a restaurant or sandwich lunch is much is more valuable for conversation than home time in the evening when everyone is tired and a lot is going on (dinner, homework, bath etc). I told an English friend about this and she managed to persuade her DC's school quite easily to let her and her ex-H take their DC to lunch once a week - the school was very receptive to the idea that this would be much less disruptive to the DC's routine than an overnighter mid-week.

If your having them EOW overnights - is there any reason you can't have them an extra day on your weekends and take them to school?

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with your DP going there mid-week if they both want the midweek contact to still take place. Ex has even said she's going out so it's one-on one with the children - absolutely fine.

However, if your DP isn't happy with the arrangement then he is the one who needs to sit down with the ex and try and come up with a solution that suits all.

You could always change your EOW to EW and alternate having them for one night over 1 weekend and a full weekend the following and so forth. That way, instead of midweek he's getting that 1 night on the weekend instead.

Bonsoir, you raise a really good point, that no one looks at alternatives to overnighting. How true. Is this all down to the CSA, who use this as their method of calculating payments? DH's solicitor once commented that 'overnighting' never seemed to be an issue til the introduction of the CSA.

It seems to me that in every country there are "national customs" surrounding divorce and contact with parents and it is very hard work to do anything different or creative. My DP and his exW had a totally à la carte agreement about the DC and although this is completely legal, it was really difficult to get their lawyers to write the agreement because it was unusual! Basically it was written at home and the lawyers just put into legalese at the last moment.

I'm really at a loss to know why midweek contact is pursued, in circumstances where no one benefits?

Because otherwise the NRP only sees their child every other weekend (or the RP doesn't get any weekends with their child.)

Soup dragon, my point was that midweek contact is great if it can be worked out logistically, but if it just becomes a nightmare for everyone, is it worth pursuing? Is one or two hours of contact worth all the hassle when an alternative (ie not midweek) could be considered?

I do think midweek contact is super important. But it really doesn't have to involve an overnighter.

I agree Bonsoir - not all contact needs to involve an overnight stay.

I th

Agree there is an almost obsession with overnighting

Yes Allnew! People are almost brainwashed into thinking that access isn't taking place unless overnighting is involved. Which is ironic given most of us are asleep overnight! So meaningful contact is hardly taking place in the small hours.

I'm still convinced this is due to the CSA's calculations being based on overnight stays.

Depends what you mean by 'meaningful contact'.

If what's important is that the child views both their parents equally, then 'meaningful contact' including the NRP helping with homework, cooking meals, washing dishes, supervising bathtimes, dealing with nightmares etc. doing all the things that happen in the RP home.

If however, the purpose of contact is to ensure that the DC maintains a relationship with their NRP - but who plays a less-than-equal role in their day to day parenting, then overnights are less important.

A parent/child relationship changes when, for instance, a child observes that parent dressing for work, or when that parent masters the obligatory school-plait.

I guess it's about whether the DC is a member of both families, or whether the NRP household routine is suspended when the DCs spend time there. Most EOW-only contact tends to attribute the status of 'guest' to the DC

And added to that is the frequent expectation among PWC's and DSCs that the NRP should suspend normal life and spend 100% of an access weekend entertaining the child. That's not normalising the relationship between the NRP and child either, it's very much reinforcing the status of a non resident child as a visitor in the NRP home

" frequent expectation among PWC's and DSCs "

some PWC and DSC