DSD given too many choices again!

[wickedestsminthewest]

I had enough. Dh and I have been planning to take dsd to France for a week in August. Frankly I am dreading spending a week with her but of course it is her divine right to have a holiday so it must be done.
He checked the dates with her mum and she said they were okay. He told dsd of our plans over the phone while she was with mum and she complained because she wanted to go somewhere hotter and said as we're staying with my aunt it's not a proper holiday (aunt owns a fabulous guest house in the Loire valley and also has space for dsd to bring her friend) anyway, he told her those were the plans and that's what we're doing.
Now this morning her mum has emailed to say "I agreed to your dates but only if dd wants to go, if she doesn't I'm not going to make her"
Arghhhh FFS! She's 13... She'll do what she's told like the rest if us had to at that age! After all the shit that's gone on since December dh was feeling excited about spending a week with his dd and thought he was doing a nice thing, only for those two to shit all over it.
There have also been photos on FB of dsd with her stepdad and all her mums friends are in there commenting that they look so scarily alike and how he could be her Dad. It's so sad. Dsd doesn't even like her sd yet is having this happy family forced on her in order for her mum to be able to rewrite history and make out that dh doesn't exist.
I really do fear for dsd's future with all this shit parenting and point scoring.
(sorry, ranty)

wicked you know I agree with you - but society has decreed that DCs of this age do have the right to choose - as you know, my DSD was younger than yours when she was given the court-ordered right to choose whether or not to see her Dad.

I have now accepted that this is how society wants it to be, DCs being given the benefits of adult status without the responsibility. It's not just step-children; you only have to read elsewhere on MN to see that very young DCs are being given choices and decisions that many adults struggle with. Perhaps parents are deferring these decisions to DCs because it absolved them, as parents, of the responsibility?

I don't agree with it - but can't change it, and can only hope that it is a fad, which will in time change to a more balanced approach

well if its dsd choice (tho my own almost 13 yr old has no choice on the holidays he is going on this summer, he is coming with us end off!) then i suggest that you make it really appealing to her, can you get photos of the place you are staying at (it sounds lovely) emphasis the fact SHE CAN BRING A FRIEND, find out of things to do locally that she may like, put together a little booklet or something about the holiday you plan on having, complete with internet links etc, show her that she will be having a good time so she wants to go?

i am assuming that the contact you have isnt court ordered? so there is no way of enforing her to be with you for the week of the holiday :(

I disagree, 5madthings, bribing a child to spend time with a parent is a surefire road to Disneyland. Each contact visit has to be more fun, and more amazing, and more rewarding than the last - and resentment is fuelled if the trips, meals out and presents don't live up to the DSC expectations that have been raised by the previous visits

My DSD did this for a while - wanted her dad to tell her in advance what he had planned for contact weekends, so she could decide if it was worth coming to see him or not. When it became clear that Disneyland was closed (DP had nearly bankrupted himself), DSD voted with her feet.

As for Court Orders, they mean nothing at this age. If the RP refuses contact against the order, and the NRP asks the court to enforce it, it won't be. The court will rewrite the order with the phrase "contact is subject to the DC's specific wishes".

Hmmm, I remember getting taken to the Loire Valley on holiday when I was thirteen and it was complete rubbish. There's not a lot to do in the Loire Valley. It's pretty dull. It was made even worse because my grandparents who took us thought we should be grateful for taking us somewhere where we didn't want to go.

13 year olds aren't generally interested in fabulous guest houses. Look at it the other way around. If she was the one with the power, she might be dragging you off to a theme park or something, which you wouldn't like. Would you feel guilty for that or would you just think that it would have been better to arrange a holiday that had something for everyone?

"her divine right to have a holiday so it must be done"

Um most children whose families can afford it go on family holidays with their parents. Why are you phrasing it like this? You sound bizarrely resentful.

Um most children whose families can afford it go on family holidays with their parents. Why are you phrasing it like this? You sound bizarrely resentful.

That's true, they do. In the same way, most children have the opportunity to spend frequent, quality time with both their parents.

wicked's DSD is not most children, and I can understand if there the resentment given the circumstances.

iwoulndt do it for each and every visit but this is a holiday he really wants his dd to go on,i am not saying go over the top to make it fabulous, i am saying point out hte good bits about it, that i assume are why they have chosen it anyway?

its always very sad when one or other parent cant do the responsible and sensible thing and parent co-operatively with an ex, its the children that miss out ultimately :(

What circumstances?

She's a girl with a father and a stepmother. Are holidays for girls like that out of the question? Are they supposed to be left quietly at home, lest they be seen to be exercising some kind of "divine right".

Anyway this sounds like a holiday for the adults - fabulous guest house in the Loire Valley. Not terribly exciting for a young teenager.

I agree you shouldnt have to make it an all singing all dancing bonanza, but I think at that age everything is 'soooooo booooring' The OPs SD may very well be difficult? but I think not wanting to go to the Loire valley would be the common response from the average 13 yr old. [whether they'd get a choice is another issue]

Does she know she's allowed to bring a friend? I remember going on what would have been painfully boring trips, but as I was allowed to bring a friend they were actually quite fun.

I get it.
Frankly, at 13, it is my feeling that you go where you are told, whether it is to the supermarket, to granny's house for dinner, to France, or to your room . If you enjoy it, so much the better. But complaining about the holiday you get is bad behavior. And the fact that so many kids who live in two households are allowed a 'right of refusal' that would not be allowed in an 'intact' household, is just bonkers.

There's not a lot to do in the Loire Valley. It's pretty dull. It was made even worse because my grandparents who took us thought we should be grateful for taking us somewhere where we didn't want to go.
I'm sort of with your grandparents on this one. Didn't you think then, and don't you think now, that you should have been grateful? Even if you didn't then and don't now feel it was a worthwhile experience, they must have gone to trouble and expense to give you an opportunity, and the fact that it wasn't to your liking doesn't lessen their efforts.

If she was the one with the power, she might be dragging you off to a theme park or something, which you wouldn't like.
But she's not. She's the child. Making these decisions is an adult privilege, that comes with adulthood. I agree with notdisney, this is a problem that goes way beyond stepparenting or separate households, and right to the heart of our expectations of children. I hate it, not just as a stepmother, but as a mother. It is ridiculous to give children a say in things they do not have the experience or knowledge to make good choices about.

This is the holiday on offer, and frankly, holidays are not a rght, they are a gift and more than that, they are an ^obligation* to the family as a whole. It is about spending time together as a family, not about providing entertainment for individual members.

The truth is that most kids, is they could design their own holiday, would base it a) on what they've seen in the media, b) what their friends and schoolmates are doing and b) on their own past experiences and current pleasures. The first and second are not realistic. The third prevents them from discovering new things and new interests and from growing as people.

obviously that should have been a), b) and c), not a, b and b!
and I'm sorry for the typos.

No not at all. It was just another example of my grandparents lack of connection to the rest of the family. If they wanted to give us a family holiday, why didn't they actually do something we'd enjoy. Seriously the Loire Valley is for middle aged people or OAPs. I wouldn't go there now. You can't demand gratitude from children. That's actually extremely bad behaviour from adults.

Holidays aren't a right nor in fact are they a gift. What they are is someone's time. I'd have preferred to stay home for two weeks rather than have my time wasted in one of the dullest places in France. It was like going on holiday to the Midlands. If my grandparents wanted to spend time in the Loire Valley then they could have done so themselves. If this girl doesn't want to go there, then 13 is actually old enough to decide how she wants to spend her time.

Families are about making sure everybody's needs are met (that's the responsibility adults take on), not about adults exercising power and telling everybody to lump it or even worse be grateful for something they don't want.

NYAC I suggest you read the OP's back story - amongst other things, contact with between DSD and her Dad has been offered on a pay-per-view basis - unless the RP is paid more money, the DSD refuses to come.

This is not a normal co-parenting situation

How odd that a father would resent paying support for his child.

There seems to be resentment all round towards her. Calling child maintenance pay per view, making out that taking her on holiday with them is the most unreasonable thing ever for a child.

It's pretty odd.

Where did I refer to CM as pay-per-view? The RP demanded MORE money, over and above maintenance, as you well know.

But, you seem determined to make the OP out to be an unreasonable WSM, so carry on - it is obviously open season on SM and NR fathers at the moment, so bring it on!

I don't well know anything. What are you talking about?

Paying the RP more money is about an increase in child maintenance is it not?

I'm talking about the phrasing of the OP. Presenting a child having a holiday with her father and stepmother as some kind of totally unreasonable thing (divine right) is odd. If the OP is in the right in this situation, she's doing herself no favours talking about her stepdaughter like this.

"You can't demand gratitude from children. That's actually extremely bad behaviour from adults"
Erm yes you can. Isn't that called bringing them up to have good manners?
So step children don't have to be grateful for gifts, holidays etc - after all they are ENTITLED to all these things aren't hey

If the OP is in the right in this situation, she's doing herself no favours talking about her stepdaughter like this

she is venting, on an anonymous forum. Why is she doing herself no favours.

Now, of course, if she was telling her DSD these things, it would be different. but there is no suggestion that she is. Like many of us, the OP is probably using MN as a safe place to vent about the frustrations of being a SM - and seeking support and practical advice on how to deal with the situation.

If you have got to a stage as a step-parenting where you can take everything in your stride, nothing frustrates you and everything is exactly as you would like it, then I for one would love to know how you achieved it.

Alternatively, if you just want to have a dig at SM for being imperfect, then you can expect me to be a bit prickly

So step children don't have to be grateful for gifts, holidays etc - after all they are ENTITLED to all these things aren't hey

not just step children, Kaluki - all DC's are entitled to anything they want...that is definitely the message I am getting from a lot of MN'ers recently

There's a difference between politeness and gratitude.

Demanding gratitude from children for something they don't want is completely wrong.

Of course children should express gratitude for things they do want and are glad to be given, and they should be polite about things they are given but don't want.

Is there any possibility of taking a nuanced approach to this? Or do we want to stick to the ungrateful stepchild/long suffering parents and step-parents meme.

I thought the OP was looking for input. Is that not what this is about.

Demanding gratitude from children for something they don't want is completely wrong

Damn - I've been getting it all wrong as parent

I expect my DD to say thank you for the sentiment behind an unwanted gift she is given, a meal she didn't enjoy, a trip that she found boring.....I really should teach her to be more materialistic

nyac, we just clearly have polar opposite views to child-rearing.

You can't demand gratitude from children. That's actually extremely bad behaviour from adults.
On the contrary. One can demand manners, and one ought to be able to expect gratitude. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I demand it from my not-yet-two-year-old, in fact, let alone from a teenager.

Holidays aren't a right nor in fact are they a gift.
No, they are a gift. In what way is that a debatable idea...?

I'd have preferred to stay home for two weeks rather than have my time wasted in one of the dullest places in France.
So what? That's the bottom line. Why would your preferences trump those of your parent or in your case, your grandparent?

If this girl doesn't want to go there, then 13 is actually old enough to decide how she wants to spend her time.
You are stating this as a fact, but it is not so. At 13, most children are not emancipated beings. ARe they old enough to decide not to go to school? Not to go to the dentist? Not to go to their room when told? I think not; maybe you think so, but that is sort of the point of the discussion, not a foregone conclusion. The OP and others think the DSD is not; I agree.

Families are about making sure everybody's needs are met (that's the responsibility adults take on), not about adults exercising power and telling everybody to lump it or even worse be grateful for something they don't want.

Again, we disagree. Both about the role of parents (which often is to tell children to "lump it") and about what constitutes a "need".

13 is old enough to start making decisions about how she spends her time. Most courts would agree about that, particularly with regards to visitation.

She can politely turn down the offer of a trip to the Loire Valley with her father if she doesn't want to go.

NADM, we agree. I've already said that politeness is important for children when dealing with unwanted gifts. It's not the same as gratitude though. Politeness and manners are actions. Gratitude is a feeling.

At 13, most children are not emancipated beings. ARe they old enough to decide not to go to school? Not to go to the dentist? Not to go to their room when told? I think not; maybe you think so, but that is sort of the point of the discussion, not a foregone conclusion. The OP and others think the DSD is not; I agree.

At the risk of taking the thread off at a slight tangent (sorry to WSMitW) this is a point I have wondered about for a while.

My DD (14) has been given the right, by the family court, to decide whether or not to see her Dad. The CO which her mum is subject to states that contact with her Dad is subject to DSD specific wishes.
But, if DSD refuses to go to school, the same court system can hold DP responsible for DSD lack of attendance.

I hope it won't be long before this bizarre state of affairs is challenged legally; on the one hand, a DC has no right to opt out of schooling, and the parents are held accountable, but on the other, the DC has the right to opt out of contact with one of those parents, and there is nothing the parent can do about it.