DH labelling ice-cream in freezer

[nomedoit]

My son, aged 19, has been home for uni over the summer. He is a nightmare. Rude (really, you could say almost abusive to me), hostile, lazy, untidy, disorganized. My DH and I are both counting down the days til he goes back and I stop running a hotel for him. I've tried the whole boundary thing but nothing works, he is immune to it all. He made very little effort even to get a job. Honestly this the DS day:

1pm - get up
1.30 - large breakfast plus TV
4.00 - nap
5.00 - contents of fridge plus TV
7.00 - huge dinner
8.00 - go out to friend's house
4am - bedtime

Poor DH has withdrawn. Anyhow. tonight he has labelled some ice-cream he bought, 'Do not eat.' Because DS bloody eats everything. And I felt like crying. Labelling our food just seemed to symbolize how fractured our 'family' is.

nomedoit - slayed by your last post - so funny !! - at least they might take over our homes and lives but they'll never take our sense of humour !! sounds a bit like that scots bloke who Mel Gibson played that doesnt it !! name escapes me.

I'm sure this has been suggested but you can't charge a student rent can you? where would they get the money from and how do they pay for the rest of the year, surely you have to give the money back at some point?

I would suggest a list of chores that he has to do in order to stay with you, another adult taking adult responsibilities. Washing, ironing, cleaning are all jobs that need doing and you do kill two birds!!

Posie, I think that is a good idea and believe me we have tried. The issue is the consequence when the chores either don't get done or are very badly done. I posted earlier in the thread about this - what do you do then? Yes, you can say this or that is the condition for living here but ultimately you have to be prepared and able to throw them out. Believe me, I'm prepared but it would come down to changing the locks.

nomedoit - on a serious note re your last but one post - I think what I said about having our collective heads tested re: the way our houses are geared to our respective DS and DSS has hit a note with me aswell - even though I said it. I think we should both have a good look round our houses and have a re-arrange but this time remembering whose names are on the deeds !! At their ages they should realise that living at home long into adulthood is not a divine right - it is based on our goodwill - so if you think your new rooms too small or you dont like your favourite settee facing at a different angle to the telly - then you know the answer !! Tatty-bye !! Today I have started three sentences to DSS with the phrase - 'well when you get your own place you can have...your x-box permanently connected to the lounge tv / start cooking chips at midnight / eat your meals lying down on the settee etc etc '. Its a bit of that broken record technique that an earlier poster suggested aswell. I have also thrown in a few ' well you can have xy or z in your room if you start keeping it clean and tidy ( and make it clear you have to be satisfied long term - not for two days to get their own way ! } - as I dont want it breaking/losing etc - that way you arent actually saying no - so no provocation really to my DH's protective side or to your DS's spit dummy out side - because you are actually saying yes ! ( but really you are saying no as we both know full well the conditions wont be met ! ). It is so helpful this site isnt it - I dont feel so resigned and helpless anymore.

p.s. - meant to say if DSS or DS's think their new room is too small or if they dont like the telly that way round etc etc - not if we dont obviously !

Well Suda, I have just tried this! I organised for DS to meet an acquaintance of mine who could give him some help getting sponsorship and work with his degree. No commitment, just a meeting to see what they would offer DS. It's noon here but DS is refusing to meet him because it's apparently too short notice (He's know about this for days!) "There's no time tonight, I'm going back to uni tomorrow." There's ample time. I said so. Then it became "I don't want to/there's no point/this is your idea." Yes, it is my idea because I have funded his education/car/phone/food/Internet up to now and even this year I have to co-sign on the students loan. So I am responsible if/when he defaults. So I have an interest in this. We went back and forth in the usual pattern - he gets nastier and nastier, starts personally attacking me and ends up with "No I won't and you can't make me" So I took his Internet cable away and used the broken record, "I expect you to do meet Mr. X and there will be consequences if you don't." After about five times he cottoned on and started mimicking me and then I left his room. But I did feel calmer, and more in control, I hadn't got sucked in to defending myself as I usually do. His capacity to argue that black is white astonishes me and I didn't get drawn in. I had begun to wobble on selling the car but not any more!

Hiya - we're both doing the broken record then - it does work whoever suggested it - thanks a million. l think l might have said this on another thread - am watching a few at mo and get a bit mixed up - but here goes - my broken record goes like this:

DSS; "Im plugging my laptop to big telly to watch the game cos I can only get it through my laptop" (we have a 50" flat screen in main family room).

n.b. above appears to be a public information announcement (this is what I am going to do) - rather than a request !!

ME; (very politely but firmly) "No dont do that please it means no one else can watch the telly or just sit in there"

DSS; (in indignant sulky voice) "No-ones watchin telly at moment. Why not?"

ME; "Because it means no-one else can use the telly for what its intended or sit in there quietly."

n.b. different wording - exactly same message !

DSS; ( now in advanced sarcastic - his forte ) " Thats really fair - what a joke "

ME; - nothing - silence - he hasnt asked me a question so I didnt make any comment - does their 'eads in Nome - try it ! Also in a strange way it seems to confirm what you've already said.

DSS; (now slipped into advanced victim) "Dad was looking at photos off his
memory card other night on telly screen"

ME; ( time for the second verse methinks )
" We're not talking about your Dad or the other night. Look - when you get your own place (his name) then you can attach whatever you want to your telly in whichever room you want but Im not having it here - still a no I'm afraid"

DSS; ( now in terminal victim )
"Thanks a lot - I'll miss the game now. Its not fair. Why not?

ME; (repeat second verse from "I'm not arguing with you - when you get your own place...etc")

DSS; (exit stage right - sound of door slamming - house shakes)

ME; (follow stage right - re-open slammed door)
Repeat second verse from "when you get your own place.." - but replace "attach whatever you want to your telly" with "slam your doors as hard as you like"

!!!!!! tee hee

so what happens if he goes and does it anyway..this is my problem!

Bourbon - I struggle with that one too. I posted about that on this thread. I think you just have to impose a consequence. In DS's case, selling the car which has been on the cards ever since he made no effort at all to earn anything all summer. And, if he doesn't go to this meeting tonight, he can get his own mobile. I've held back from that because of the 'safety' issue but there's also the danger of raising a hopeless, helpless adult to consider!
I'm in the US, it's 4.15pm here. Ever since noon DS has been bloody asleep!!! That's after saying he has no time to meet Mr. X because of all the packing he has to do. I am fuming but calm, IYSWIM.
Suda, GOOD JOB!!! Oh, the victim mode. "You have no idea how much pressure I'm under..."
I am lucky that my DH, the step-parent here, is very laid back and supportive. I phoned him and he said DS will never grow up so long as I am there for him and I think, sadly, that is true.

bourbon and nome Think that was directed at me about what if they do it anyway? What I do is actually do something to physically stop him doing something if I have asked him several times and tried everything else. Example - I kept telling DSS not to keep using the tumble dryer for 1 item or to dry his football boots (complete with mud!)- he kept doing it - day after day - even blatantly denying he'd used it sometimes and causing terrible rows between me and his dad. So now I take the fuse out of the plug and keep it in secret place till I need dryer. Dont worry he's far too lazy to go and get a screwdriver and find and put another fuse in! Another example is pots in his room - he collects them - so I put all the spare pots away and just leave enough out for the three of us - so when he's used his one plate, cup or bowl he has no choice but to wash it out cos theres no more. If he uses our pots instead he knows he'll get it in the neck off his dad cos I will flatly refuse to get out the spares. I say to my DH when he calls me petty or pathetic that I am not going to keep banging my head against the wall so I have actually done x y or z to stop any further aggro /shouting/bad atmosphere in the house - not to create it. DH cant really vilify me for that and DS can hardly complain to his dad that the tumble dryers not working as his das knows he's barred from it or he cant find any more pots cos his dad knows that means theyre all in his room!!

It worked!!! DS has just left to go and see a man about a job! The broken record technique combined with an unspecified consequence did the trick. Of course, we are a long way from him actually getting paid...

Once started taking the plug - complete with chain out of our bath - out on a night out in my handbag!! Everytime we had night out DSS would be in it -( he has his own en-suite?? ) - and we would come home to disgusting scum / wet towels etc. and all sorts of crap - literally sometimes - in our loo. Vile - had to scrub it top to bottom before I felt I could use it. But however much I screamed at DSS or DH ( when he played it down and we had huge rows ) he would still go in it if we were out for the night. So the first night I had this brainwave DSS gets on the phone to his dad - his cheek is breathtaking - and bleats to him about the plug missing in our bathroom !! It backfired on him - his dad was not happy at all - interrupted during our meal - and told him to keep the f* out of our bathroom - like you've been told !!!.

Nome !! Brilliant - Dont know about you but whats great about this site is when someone with a shared problem makes some progress - it makes you feel stronger and more optimistic.

p.s. DH never mentioned the plug - ever. DSS never had his Saturday night soak again either.

Suda, clearly actions speak louder than words. DS is back from his meeting with Mr. X about university sponsorship, I asked him how it went, got a grunt in reply. The usual. That is another thing - the rudeness. At best I get ignored. DS lies all the time too, routinely, even when he doesn't need to.
I feel it must do him good to be exposed to people like Mr. X who is quite dynamic. But who know where it will go from here, if anywhere. The problem is DS is so comfortable here and he has everything he needs courtesy of me. He's not very materialistic or interested in clothes. He has an old mobile, beaten up shoes etc but he doesn't care about that stuff or not enough to go and work because he has a the essentials namely a laptop, TV, food, a car and a nice warm sofa which is indented with his shape. Until that changes, I don't think there will be any real change in his behaviour. I do agree with the, "Once you have done x then you will get y," approach. They recommend that for toddlers, too, don't they?

When does the car get sold? Also have you stopped paying his mobile now?

I am SO dreading the teenage years and my son is only 7yrs.

Im reading with interest - Ive two small boys that will be this age before I know it. It sounds like a nightamare. I think I had the potential to be like this as a student. What stopped it is that my mum simply didnt give me ANY money - not for uni, not for books, cars, phones weren't invented then! She would send me back with a tesco shop and might get me a few clothes. Because I wanted to go out/had to pay for accommodation each term and so on at uni, I got a factory job in the holidays and worked loads andsaved it. If my mum had given me the money I definitely wouldnt have bothered at all. Then when I left uni, and before I got a job, my mum actually took rent out of my jobseekers which left me with a few quid a week.

The trouble is that I was probably easier to break than these boys who sound like masters of doing what they want. From reading your posts I agree with your tactics of removing the things that they get paid for that they value.

• dont pay for the car/sell it - excellent idea, having a car paid for is a massive luxury.
• can you password the internet, could you even get some kind of pin on the tv? We had dial up in my day so had to pay for my time which came up on the phone bill. Tell them if they want to use it, they need to pay a percentage of the monthly charge.
• do not pay phones!! they are old enough to keep safe without a phone. If they want one, there are ten pound a month contracts, its affordable as a student (esp. one with a job)
• dont do washing for them.

use the boken record technique to also point out that you will not waste time cooking for/helping/giving money to someone that speaks and behaves to you like they do. I think you need to get really really tough. You dont HAVE to give them anything, these are grown up men, they are capable of getting jobs. They are behaving like this because I think that they think you will feel too guilty to withdraw support/they know you want to see them do well. they think its your responsibility not theirs. I think i pulled my finger out because I knew that my mum simply wouldnt have the money or agree to bail me out at all.

I think the townhouse is an excellent idea, it sounds wonderful!! Really good luck, I hope you dont mind me putting out a few suggestions, I know im not in your situation, it just made me think about why I did get a job in that postion - it definitely is because I didnt get any luxuries paid for at all. GOOD LUCK, STAY STRONG!!!!

Geraldine, 'masters of doing what they want' is the perfect description.

I think I have (obviously) done too much for DS. Probably because my own mother was v. ill most of her life and died when i was 15 and then my father remarried quickly thereafter to evil step-mother and I left home at 18 to go to uni and barely went back thereafter. I was like you - totally self-sufficient! I worked from age 13 - cleaning, weeding, working in shops, awful catering jobs. Work, work, work and then at uni work experience in the summer.

I didn't want DS to feel like I did - very alone - but it is possible to do too much. I should have given him chores to do, made him clean up and followed the mantra, "Do not do for a child what they can do for themselves".

I've also allowed this to develop over the course of about five years, partly because everyone told me it was normal teen behaviour and he would grow out of it. But he hasn't. His academics have always been very good and I thought that was the main thing to worry about. In a way it is, but in life you have to have other qualities and he is on the way to being a feckless adult. Hey, he is a feckless adult.

So then I reached my ice-cream drama rock bottom. The car gets sold next week. The phone goes next week too. The Internet has already been disabled. I would disable the TV downstairs but DH says no, he wants to watch it sometimes

Oh, he's announced that he's not interested in the uni sponsorship.

He might want to change his mind on that in a little while

Absolutely nearly died laughing- honestly - I couldnt breathe - on reading about Suda taking bath plug out in her handbag - classic . Glad she didnt get stopped and searched ! I think the one thing a lot of you embattled SM,s seem to have in common on reading this and other threads is your sense of humour. Methinks anyone with a good sense of humour like that will be ok whatever happens - I have great admiration for you all. Keep at it - and keep smiling .

P.s. Most important keep coming on Mumsnet - keep supporting each other and we'll all be fine - you'll see.

Thanks Madmn - Next time I'm in the pub I will wonder how many SM's have bathplugs/aerial leads/fuses/electrical plugs/cables etc etc in their handbags. I wonder if thats why those big handbags have come into fashion??