This story is so sad......... and awful too.......

[lottiejenkins]

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/09/08/mum-could-not-cope-with-disabled-daughter-91466-217 05000/

I don't really understand why she didn't just leave but I do think that when she brought up the idea of adoption that should have signalled to others that all wasn't well and she should have been encouraged to get some help. Maybe as well, if her husband was the one who did everything she may have felt side-lined (although I'm not for a minute suggesting this is justification for killing your child). I think AnnVan has a point - it does sound to me that something 'snapped'.

oops cross posted. It probably depends a lot on who you speak to as well. Some GPs are amazing others...not so.

I don't think any court judgement should give a green light to 'euthanasia' but her actions do seem indicative of mental breakdown - as there was no attempt to conceal the crime or to flee to Australia. Although her reaction may seem odd to many who are coping with more severe disabilities. Maybe the scanning and testing culture encourages parents to believe that a perfect baby is definitely on order.

riven I have seen that, the desire not to have a wheelchair

it's not just about embarrassment or stigma, I think, it's about admitting to yourself that your child is not just a bit delayed - I know a couple of mums who realised quite late despite all the evidence that their children were not going to 'catch up', which is part naivety, part denial I think - and coming to terms with the idea of your disabled baby growing into a disabled child and a disabled adult. For some mums that can be almost as hard as the initial dx ime. It's another part of the grieving process.

I had no problems personally with it - dd was using a wheelchair instead of a buggy when necessary as soon as the opportunity arose, because I thought it made her look more grown up when people were inclined to 'baby' her

I think it's the word 'embarrassment' that I am uncomfortable with here. Is it a word being used by the prosecution because of its triviality, in order to compound the horror of this woman's act? I'm sure that embarrassment, by the sound of it, just doesn't cover the complexity of what was going on

"Although her reaction may seem odd to many who are coping with more severe disabilities"

I think so. But 'other people have it harder than you' is never going to be something that makes you feel better when you are at a low point. It didn't work when your mother said it when you were 7, and it doesn't work now.

I don't understand the wheelchair thing- there's a kid in a chair starting in ds1's class, the teacher has made much of it- ds seems to think the kid will be totally incapable of interacting. Seems to me that a child with normal functioning in every way but being in a chair is perhaps better off than ds3 not talking, but I suppose others might differ. In terms of lfe chances i mean. Being in wales I've seen this story a fair bit. I would think clearly she cannot have been well- the driving around aferwards woul attest to that surely?- nonetheless I cannot feel anything but loathing for what she has done.

'"Although her reaction may seem odd to many who are coping with more severe disabilities"'

I don't know but I think severe ptd or depression is the same refardless of aetiology?

?please don't underestimate the shock of having a child with disabilities, all those people who think the poor lady is a witch.?. Of course having a child with disabilities must come as a shock. When we decide to have children we all have (usually unrealistic) expectations of how things are going to be, and as a rule, although disability is talked about most people don?t actively consider that they might have a child with disabilities, so when that happens it goes without saying that it is a shock. But I am horrified that anyone might consider that grounds for killing the child in question.

I have what I consider to be a mild disability, but it is a disability none the less, I would be horrified if anyone suggested that my mum might have been so unable to cope with the shock of my disability that she might have considered killing me. As it happens she felt so strongly that she didn?t want another child with a disability that when I was 7 she terminated an unplanned pregnancy just in case, and even that I find hard to comprehend.

Sadly some people do feel embarrassment. I know my sister was embarrassed to be seen with me when we were children, and in some ways I think she still is, although I don?t know if she realizes it.

I wonder if people would have been so sympathetic if this was a man on trial.

I agree Capp, - When we were going through dx process for DS1 (ASD) I met a mother who was very depressed (on medication) because her son was short sighted and had to wear glasses. Also when my mum had a knee replacement op, she refused to go out of the house using sticks.

riven: "I'm wondering about the 'embaressment'. I see it here in our CP group. Most of the mums choose SN 'buggies' because they look 'normal' even though the Swifty etc are not that great at full support. they do it because they think there is a 'stigma' surrounding a wheelchair."

I have, equally, seen posts on other boards where parents of kids with disabled kids are discussing how to persuade Wheelchair Services to get them into a "proper" wheelchair not a buggy because at least that makes it clear they have a physical problem, not - - a learning disability (assumption being it would be ... well, "embarrassing" if people thought their child was like mine.)

What a lot of that is about is not the parents' own feelings about their child, but the expected reactions of other people and how you handle it. Some people are better at being stared at and handling comments than others, after all.

Re: "embarrassment" in this case - the word was used by a lawyer without a disabled child trying to give a jury of people without disabled children an idea of how the lawyer alleges the woman felt. Doesn't give any indication of what was actually going on in her head at all. Will watch the progress of the trial - and particularly what she says herself - with interest.

cyber I was once told by a therapist that I was one of the only mothers she saw with a disabled child who was not on ADs

dd1 has mild to moderate CP. It must be very difficult for people with more disabled children to understand what people with mildly disabled children are bleating about and I understand that.

I do not want to excuse the woman. I don't at all. But the 'it is worse for others' argument doesn't wash. It is different for others. Parents with children with mild to moderate difficulties have little or no SN support in mainstream school and preschool.

I once read a post on here saying that a mother was finding it hard to go to toddler groups, and apart from me, nearly everyone who responded said don't go, it is hard, don't put yourself through it. I had no choice; I knew that dd was going to have to fit into a mainstream environment so I had to get a thick enough skin to deal with that.

as usual these threads go into subjects not necessarily to do with the particular case. But it's important to realise that the woman still had pressures on her, even if they were different, and lighter, than yours.

I know what you mean - I don't really know how 'severe' DS1 is at this stage but I do know we don't have many of the issues or problems commonly associated with autism however I still tend to focus on my own problems to a large extent - but that's just human nature I suppose. I don't think I am pre judging her esp. as r3 pointed out, we are only going on the prosecution evidence which is downplaying psychiatric issues. All I meant was that I could understand riven , for example. thinking 'she didn't have that much to cope with'

I'm trying to feel sympathy, I really am. I've had depression myself so I'm not completely ignorant, I know how it can make the smallest problem seem like a huge mountain to overcome. But I'm sorry, the 'there but for the grace of God' stuff just makes me see red. Can any of you imagine, however bad things got, being able to run a bath and hold your little child under the water until they were dead? I know I couldn't.
I might just be cynical due to my own experiences. My cousin's husband tried the old 'hearing voices' thing 20 years ago because he thought it would get him off stabbing her to death. It wasn't very original then.

I think it's because I cannot imagine for one second holding any living being under water until they drowned, let alone my own child, that i think she can only have been beyond any fom of rational controlled human mentality.

But I don't know - and anyway, none of that means I feel 'sympathy' for her. But if we just say 'evil - beginning and end of it' then we might miss a trick in our understanding of how to prevent horrific killings by people who have, in a sense, already issued a signal that all is not well. After all, if the child had been adopted, she would be alive today.

I was chilled by JH, but in the end, if someone says they can't cope - for whatever reason, justified or otherwise, in our opinion, then forcing them to accept, cope, is in no-one's interest...and is tantamount to saying "well if you can't cope, you must be evil to want to get rid of your own child, so as punishment you will be forced to keep her, not have her adopted, and that'll teach you!"

Cappuccino I do get what you mean.
however mild the disability it is still a disability and is just as hard to deal with. sometimes more so as the support is less.

For a lot of people the step from a buggy to a wheelchair is bloody hard. it is the time you have to accept that your child is not going to walk. that is not easy.

I have no sympathy for a woman who holds her dd face down into the water until dead.
she will have a life(even if she goes to prison, the sentance will be a joke)
the child is dead

as wannabe said I do wonder how people would have reacted if it was a man.

Blu imo the mistake JH made was not having her dd adopted, loads of people do that. it was trying to sell it as the answer, and making money out of it. that was the sickening bit.

if JH hadn't written a book and published numerous artacles about travelling all over the world wiith her "children" (minus the one who didn't fit her ideals obviously) I might have had more sympathy for her.

It's not the inability to cope that should be condemned, but the actions that are taken as a result (IMO).

Yes - I take your point about money and vanity.

Blu, maybe you're right and I should be more understanding of what desperation can do to people. On the other hand, I've been depressed enough to consider (briefly) killing myself, but never anyone else.
As for saying she should have been allowed to have her adopted and not 'forced to cope', the child had two parents. Why on earth should the father be forced to have his own her adopted when he apparently was coping. I think you might have hit the nail on the head with "that'll teach you". We often hear of men who kill their children rather than give their partner the 'satisfaction' of keeping them, why can't this be a similar thing? The woman's anger against her husband for inflicting on her a child she didn't want could have built up to such an extent that (yes, probably in 'a moment of madness'and after too much wine) she thought 'well, I'll show you, if she's dead there will be nothing you can do about it'.
I think that's more likely than the 'embarrassment' scenario.

That's 'have her adopted' obviously.

If she wasn't coping it must have been hard to watch her husband coping. Not that he should have been forced into adoption or anything but I feel that quite a bit has been made about how he did everything and coped well and I can't believe that for 4 years the mother just went around being 'embarrassed' and not contributing anything - although I could just be being naive??? I think maybe I'm just trying to cling to the hope that parents don't just kill their children because they are evil.

evil parents not evil children. sorry tired.