MMR!!!! Have just cancelled it.

[HolyCalamityJane]

Hi Everyone.

Just need your advice on this. My DS had an appt to get MMR this morning. My DD has ASD traits, ADHD and dyspraxia and so therefore I have fears that DS who is a happy smiley boy will change once I get this done.

I know there is no hard evidence linking the 2 but I would never forgive myself if all of a sudden he changes after he has it.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

AFAIK the risks are that he will be exposed to many more viruses/infections and may be in contact with dc whose mothers are pg.

Could you phone/e mail the paed and ask for advice?

LeonieDelt and PipinJo

"Just for Dolfrog's clarification, the MMR/bowel disease 1998 lancet paper wasn't in fact a fraud - all this science backs it up."

From the the list research papers you linked to you may find the most recent of some interest. Evaluation, Diagnosis, and Treatment of Gastrointestinal Disorders in Individuals With ASDs: A Consensus Report 2010

There may be a link between MMR and IBS, but that is not the same as MMR and ASD.

I've been holding off posting for fear of being flamed... but I have looked into this very carefully, over several years. There isn't any substantial scientific evidence to suggest the MMR (or any other vaccine) causes a significant proportion of autism/ asd. We do know that both natural infections and useful vaccines can cause severe, unexpected reactions in a tiny minority, and that the brain is sometimes involved... so I would agree that for some families the 'best-guess' decision might be to trust their instincts and delay, modify or omit the vaccines which they think affected an older child. And the anecdotal evidence of those sensible, observant parents deserves more investigation.

None of this makes a fraudulent research paper correct. Interestingly, one of the main ways that large, rich corporations try to suppress adverse findings is by vexatiously suing scientists for libel. And I think the premise that vaccines cause a leaky gut cause a funny reaction to most foods cause brain damage cause autism is about as likely as the refrigerator mothers theory.

So I've taken all the dc for the usual NHS schedule of jabs. And sleep in the fridge

Way to go with the gracious apology Dolfrog

you may also find the research which has followed even more interesting.
Impaired carbohydrate digestion and transport and mucosal dysbiosis in the intestines of children with autism and gastrointestinal disturbances.
and Application of Novel PCR-Based Methods for Detection, Quantitation, and Phylogenetic Characterization of Sutterella Species in Intestinal Biopsy Samples from Children with Autism and Gastrointestinal Disturbances

PCR = polymerase chain reaction (PCR) DNA related

You do understand that 'autism' is actually 'autisms' don't you?

Well as riveting a read as the above links sound................

In the end I decided not to go for the MMR. I just got the 2 booster jabs for Hib/ Men C and Pcv. I will now get the measles jab in April when DS is 15 months old and then get Rubella and Mumps at 8 week intervals. Apparently the Mumps one is making a comeback soon!!!!!
If DS does now develop bowel problems or ASD traits at least I will not blame myself and wish I hadn't got the MMR. I am happy with my decision and cannot thank-you all enough for helping me to reach this decision.[happy]

Good to hear you've come to a decision that you're happy with

saintlyjimjams

"You do understand that 'autism' is actually 'autisms' don't you?"

That is precisely what all the research of th last decade has been indicating, identifying the individual conditions which can combine to cause the observed behaviours, or behaviour traits. Non of these cognitive issues are caused by MMR.
However if you read the last research of the last two or three years with regard to ASD and gastrointestinal disturbances (IBS etc) you will see a genetic difference in the ASD population which can cause this type of problem when compared to others who have similar gastrointestinal disturbances. And explaining and coping with these gastrointestinal disturbances can made more difficult for those who have ASD related communication problems.

You could have a look at the research papers recently added to the CiteULike Autism library and or another CiteuLike research paper sharing group I only discovered yesterday The human microbiome library which includes issues of the gut.

dolfrog I do keep up with research cheers

I'm impressed that you say 'none of these cognitive issues are caused by MMR' when the papers that examine MMR and autism have totally failed to take any steps to identify the subgroup and have looked at autism as a whole (pointless). One tried, but then chose bizarre symptoms so was as pointless as the studies that came before it.

A link to another MN thread which could be considered related to this one I think I might have Aspergers too

Er yes, it's well known that HFA in particular runs in families along with BAP.

In our family there is no autism at all. Not in our family and not among the huge extended family. Just severely autistic ds1 who regressed after a viral infection. Oh and a lot of immune disorders

Your point is?

This currently being posted and retweeted on Twitter.
WakefieldGMCTranscripts

saintlyjimjams

currently the genetic links are still being identified specifically, and all of the issues which can cause ASD have a genetic origin.
Some could be like me, have family history of one of the issues which can cause ASD, when it is co-morbid with the other conditions which can trigger ASD the combined behaviour traits.
And each parent may only have one of the conditions which can combine with other conditions which can cause ASD. In some random genetic mixes from parents who each child is different all who have a diagnosis of ASD have a mixture of their combined family genetic make up
And many of these issues have only recently been identified in the last decade or so, which means many like me and others only discover our real disabilities we have had all of our lives when trying to get help for our children. So this is more about discovering your family history using current understandings of these multiple issues, and not based on the understanding of years gone bye, when we were much younger.

So from my point of view all parents who have a child with ASD share some or all of the the issues as part of natural genetic process. As I share all of the issues the issues of my children all of whom have clinical diagnosis of auditory processing disorder, as does my DW. We are a family of 5 all with a diagnosis of APD, all with different variations, and different severeties. I was in my late 40s when I was diagnosed with a disability I have lived with all of my life. APD is one of the underlying issues which can cause the communication problems experienced by those diagnosed with ASD.

Dolfrog I am a geneticist. Or at least was - you don't have to explain inheritence to me. The fact that the BAP can be identified in some families (probably many as the dx broadened) doesn't mean therefore that that mechanism of inheritance applies to all families where there is a dx of autism.

In our case I'm far more interested in the research into the immune system and autism.

Although god knows why I am bothering to discuss this with you as I know from previous threads you have one view of autism and little understanding of its diversity.

Lol at Dolfrog explaining science to Jimjams, of all the people to choose.

PipinJo, I'm not defending the drug companies, and I'm well aware that the funding pattern skews published research towards expensive new drugs... In actual fact they do pay for plenty of studies that show some drugs are dangerous, they just make sure that those findings don't get published .

But there is some useful stuff funded via other channels as well, charities, governments etc. And the rise in asd diagnosis in different countries doesn't follow the rise in MMR rates neatly, so the public hysteria about it being 'the cause' of 'autism' is OTT. I think (know?) that what we call asd is a mixed bag of disabilities, often a consequence of multiple genes and very possibly multiple environmental triggers. So MMR sometimes being the tipping factor for 'some' asd would be very hard to disprove. If someone was sure MMR (or Calpol, or perfume, or peanuts, or whatever) damaged their first child, would anyone really suggest they give it to no 2 because 'there's no evidence'?

What I find really odd is how what looks like developing asd can sometimes revert into typical developmental trajectories. Might there be 'good' triggers?

PipinJo, you might want how to report a medicine related problem

I was thinking mainly of the clients dropping like flies, but I guess you could do a vaccine one if you wanted.