MMR!!!! Have just cancelled it.

[HolyCalamityJane]

Hi Everyone.

Just need your advice on this. My DS had an appt to get MMR this morning. My DD has ASD traits, ADHD and dyspraxia and so therefore I have fears that DS who is a happy smiley boy will change once I get this done.

I know there is no hard evidence linking the 2 but I would never forgive myself if all of a sudden he changes after he has it.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

well, no one is in control of what the media decide to make up and print. (and I am not sure that anyone can be held responsible for individuals not checking out whether the story the read in the paper that morning was a pack of lies or not)

but I mean officially, proper sources etc.

My DS1 is being investigated for Aspergers/ASD (has been diagnosed with social commincation disorder, just waiting on the long path to see what level) He had both parts of the MMR - but not at the recommended times. I waited until he was nearly 2, and he had no sign of any kind of cold or illness for at least 4 weeks. His booster he had the week he started school at 4. Both times the GP surgery chased me from 12m and 3years. He showed traits from an early age, way pre MMR. To me the benefits of the MMR outweighed the negatives I researched and still do.

DS2 has had the MMR and is due his 2nd booster next month, aged 3yr 11m. He has no signs of any kind of social or communication disorder.

I agree with someone else upthread - I believe ASD is genetic, and the MMR (along with other things) can trigger the level at which it can develop - in some children more than others. I have austistic traits myself, but did not have the MMR so I do wonder whether DS1's have developed into Aspergers because of the injections, or whether its just one of those things. Both mine have been in nursery from a very very young age due to me working though, and I felt the protection it offered was the main reason for going for it.

There is nothing to say that if you turn the MMR down now at 12 months you can never have it. You could take your daughter at 3, or 5 or 8 to get it if you decide then that the benefits outweigh the risks. The decision you make now does not have to be the one for life. (though of course if you give it you cant take it back!)

No, I don't believe I have heard/ read anyone say it causes it just that it could possibly make it worse. I too think that if my children are pre-disposed to have certain conditions and judging by DD1 they most certainly are then a triple vaccination might and it is a big might make those conditions worse or might cause a neurological reaction in a very undeveloped brain.

beca that salt water placebo comment has scared me a bit. That is horrendous!!

So what I am hearing is that you will need to pay for single jabs is that right? If so can your GP do them or do you need to go private for this?

I have never had measles or the MMR maybe the holy calamity genes are maesles resistant

holy, GP's are not allowed to give single vaccines. They can only be done in private clinics/surgeries.

I paid £100 for each of Dd3's but they are probably more now.

Worth every penny IMHO.

I know that Dd3's jabs were the real thing the Doc who did them is a well known practioner in my area who has a very good reputation.

Only you can make the desision[sp], I am not anti vaccine just anti mixing up of vaccines IYSWIM.

calamity Sorry to worry you! There are reputable docs who do single jabs - best thing to do is find one by personal recommendation x

I respect the decisions that parents make about the MMR, based on their own experiences and research. You've got to do what you see as right.

However reading these kind of threads always leaves me thinking that I fucked it up by allowing DS to have his MMR jabs; up until then we'd had no reason to suspect that he wasn't fit to have them. I'd like to think that I made the right choice at that time, based on the risks of him picking up a pretty nasty disease if we hadn't had him vaccinated. But these stories of children with a predisposition to ASD being 'worse' after the jabs makes me cry.

I'm truly sorry to anyone that feels their children have been affected by the MMR.
I guess it's one of those things I'm going to add to my Guilt List, as I'll never know now, either way

Very pro vaccination here, probably because I have watched a child die of measles (on PICU) & I have no reason not to vaccinate my child at present.

Also very pro choice, there is NO medical intervention that I can think of that should be given to the vast majority of the population. Why would vaccination be any different? Is it acceptable to potentially harm (I say potentially as the evidence is not there) a few to protect the masses?

I wouldn't judge any parent actively choosing not to vaccinate their child. If they just can't be bothered that is a different matter! If I had a child with ASD would I vaccinate my second child, honestly, probably not. This is despite me knowing how little evidence there is for the link between MMR & Autism. For the record DR Andrew Wakefield the lead author on the paper linking MMR & Autism has since been struck off the medical register for serious misconduct.

It would also probably do well to remember that this is the SN board & clearly some comments could be viewed as quite insensitive.

I'm certain that ds's ASD comes from a genetic link and he did have the mmr. I don't know now whether or not I will let him have the booster. Like most parents you don't want to risk making things worse even if there isn't research to back up your choices.

It's offensive to insinuate that I am frail and in denial. I am just a parent trying to make the best choices for my child and frankly if there was a scrap of evidence to show that feeding him baked beans every Tuesday at five o clock until he's thirty whilst fanning him with a newspaper would do anything to help him get along easier in life then I would probably do that to.

Parenting cannot always be about logic and research. We have to make decisions that we can live with.

Thanks everyone for your advice and comments. Have been looking into single jabs today trying to find a reputable clinic but will naturally need to research these in more depth. I am thinking that the only one I would really want is the measles but not sure at which age I should think about that definitely not right now when DS has only turned 1.

I have been amazed by the reaction though of my friends and family who feel I am being "bloody silly". Happy to be bloody silly than risk my DS's long term health thank-you

My mum didn't believe measles wasa big deal and we were not vacinated because of this. Both me and my sister caught measles and whilst I was fine, my sister lost her slight.

Losts of people talk about the risks of vacination, but they are for most people minor. The consequences of not vacinating can be much much worse.

Sorry about your sister better, but if you read the whole thread people aren't saying measles isn't a big deal. It's also pretty much agreed that for most people the risks of vax are indeed minor. However there is a small group of children with susceptability to ASD type conditions who sometimes are affected. For these people there is a big dilemma over the MMR. For these people the single vaxs are often a better compromise.

Depends what you mean by 'genetic' doesn't it.

I believe there is a genetic basis to my son's severe autism. But there is no autism at all in our family, and no broader autism phenotype. None. We have a huge family with a lot of males so there's been plenty of opportunity for it to show.

There is however, immune disorder after immune disorder in the family. Presumably, given it's frequent occurrence with some sort of genetic basis. Given that ds1 regressed post immune insult it would seem that the two are likely to be linked. Hi paediatricians and neurologists have agreed that's a sensible pov.

We haven't vaccinated ds2 or ds3 (and we steered clear of antibiotics as well and various other bits and pieces that may or may not have had an effect on ds1). Age 10 and 7 they're doing well.

My mother is deaf in one ear following measles, she was very ill indeed with measles. She still agrees we shouldn't vaccinate ds2 and ds3 having watched what happened with ds1.

Betternext,

"The consequences of not vacinating can be much much worse."

I'm not one to quote and comment usually, but I think that's an ill judged comment really, particularly on the SNs board.

You could turn it on his head and say for a certain group of individuals, the consequences of vaccinating can be much much worse than catching measles. Any lifelong disability, be it caused by measles or vaccination is a terrible consequence.

Not everyone that catches measles ends up with a disability. Not everyone that isn't vaccinated catches measles or if they do catches it badly enough for the worst consequences to be a factor. That's what makes this such a hard decision for every parent, particularly those who are aware of the genetic predisposition for their children to react badly to the vaccination.

Either way round, we are talking about a relatively small group of children - but none of us wants to make the wrong decision and be responsible for causing our dcs harm.

I think every parent on this forum takes measles serious and understands that it is a very serious illness. None of us take this decision lightly - hence this thread.

Leonie, I had to retype a couple of times - and then ask dh's opinion on what I'd written.

I delayed DS' MMR booster. I am not deluded as I am autistic myself. I believe that he was always autistic but he was extremely ill after the triple jab and his digestive system has never recovered. He couldn't even keep water down for ten days (let alone Dioralyte) and if I had not still been BF he would have had to be fully-sedated on a drip in hospital.

He ate everything and anything before that day and toilet-training is now much harder for him.

The "booster" is a misnomer anyway. It is an extra dose to catch the children who don't receive immunity first time round. DS had measles which was downgraded to a "measles-like illness" a few months after his when I pointed out that he had had the first vax

I object to this sort of misinformation but it just goes to show how the general public are treated.

Leonie I saw your Wakefield link on FB (am L.B) so thank you for that

DS had his "booster" mainly because he was starting school and in contact with children who would have pregnant mothers. It was a risk but for the benefit of of ohers so I very much resent being told that I am in denial or selfish when these debates are being had.

Sorry, his "measles" was described differently when I pointed out that yes he had had his MMR months previously and questioned why he had them now.

I used to bloody love being ill for a week at a time. Books and Lucozade and ice-cream in your parents' double bed. My Mum worked evenings.

Makes you wonder if the vaccination programme is economically driven. Collateral damage sadly, but at least workers won't need a week off for every common childhood illness per child.

I think there are several financial/economic motivations for the vaccination programme Mists. Pharmaceutical giants - enough said.

I get terribly tied up about it all really. I do see how important it is to protect more vulnerable people/children that might contract these illnesses and suffer severe consequences, but at the same time I am not happy for any child, let alone my child to be collateral damage for that. I want to do the right thing, but feel like I can never do right by everyone.

I think the government would be better off spending some of the money on titre testing to see which children actually need vaccinating and/or re-vaccinating. I also think the schedule should be changed so that we don't end up with 3-in-1 and 5-in-1 vaccinations. It children need the vaccinations, they would be better placed to have them individually and well spaced to allow their immune systems to cope.

As someone said up thread, far too much of the research is sponsored by the likes of pharmaceutical companies, but without their funding, the research can't take place - yet another stalemate.

Personally I don't feel like I can trust the government, the pharmaceutical companies or the research papers.

I agree with a comment right at the start of this thread. All vaccinations and immunisations come with a risk. The fact is, we are not treated as if we have any understanding of this. When we ask about % risks, possible contra-indications we are treated as neurotic and over anxious.
Can you imagine if parents were given an option of getting their child checked for allergies and immunity checks? I can see my DCs HV's face now, and the government would be thinking £££££.
DS2 had HSP (Henoch Schonlein Purpura) after his pre school booster. The vasculitis has given him a mal-formed hip joint, but he was lucky as he had no permanent kidney damage. It did affect his personality, his pre-school confirmed this.
The information sheet from the hospital confirmed that vaccinations and immunisations can cause HSP. They also know boys in winter months are most likely to succumb.
GP said we were just 'unlucky' - part of a small statistic.
I did give DS3 the same vaccinations - but I used the information. I ignored the letter to have him vaccinated in the winter. I waited another year til he was bigger and stronger. He's been fine.
We are just not trusted with the facts and allowed to make informed decisions.

just for comparison, you can have a look at my PubMed Autism and Regression research paper collection and my new PubMed MMR and ASD research paper collection and one of the papers included in the latest collection is from India
The MMR vaccine and autism: Sensation, refutation, retraction, and fraud (2011) which seems to provide a good summary.