Can the nursery ask DS1 to leave as he needs too much attention?

[weakestlink]

DS1 is 3 and has just moved up to the preschool section of his nursery. He has a severe S&L delay becuase of glue ear and is a bit of a "handful" at times.

The nursery seem to be struggling now the ratio is 1:8 (was 1:4 in the 2-3 class so quite a leap).

I have started the ball rolling regarding diagnosis of a possible ASD or something else and DS has a 1hr assessment with the HV on Tuesday.

Can the nursery ask him to leave becuase he is too much trouble?

Can I ask them to make some changes /allowances for him eg. try to make eye contact with him when they are giving instructions / repeat several times / in different ways?

they can't (or should that be shouldn't do that), barring some massive health/safety risk. they should be seeking advice from early years inclusion service at LEA, and if need be looking for funding for 1-1 hours for him. Also there should be formal paper work (nursery equivalent of IEP) setting out appropriate targets for him and nursery to work on. Asking them to be clearer re:giving instructions is pretty fundamental for hearing issues/language delay tbh, if they are unwilling to do this that would be a concern. Don't fall into the trap I did: I fell into the trap of being so grateful they were willing to have him in the nursery that I didn't really question what support they were giving him. because my DS was v placid, despite the severe S&L delay at that age they were mostly happy to baby him, so all he learnt in over a year at his first nursery was to sit down for snack time, to be physically compliant at carpet time but not actually take any of it in and to use scissors. As soon as I moved him to a school nursery after we moved house, he was much happier.

if nursery have said they can't handle him within their current ratios then they need to be discussing this with both you and the lea. the nursery senco (ordinarily the manager) should ask the early years area inclusion officer (or whatever they are called in your neck of the woods - sometimes the name varies) to come and carry out a visit/ assessment. this could lead either to a recommendation to apply for stat assessment if it's likely to be an ongoing problem, or at least some additional funding for higher ratio cover (inc 1-1 if deemed appropriate).

if you have additional professionals already involved (from an sn pov rather than specifically health ie the glue ear aspect) then he should already be listed at 'school action plus' on the nursery records, and nursery should have come up with some specific aims for his inclusion. these are usually in the form of an iep, with targets, but if behaviour is his main issue, then it might be in the form of a behaviour plan. iep's can be used for all sorts of issues though - including behavioural and social.

so, no, not usually. but if you suspect sn, it's worth discussing your concerns with the senco. ieps and other contact with the nursery can all be used as evidence oif need later if necessary.

(i should add, dd2 wasn't statemented until yr r, but had 1-1 support funded by the nursery and lea from her 2nd birthday. obviously budgets are tighter, but leas are still mandated to provide for sn kids.)

you can suggest targets for inclusion on the iep (such as you mentioned) but i always found it better to get the other professionals to do this . you should check that nursery are using 'smart' targeting.

you could keep it completely off the record and just ask if they would do some stuff, but really it's best if most things are documented properly, particularly if you suspect that you might be on the sn road for a long time.

i type really slowly...

No they bloody can't ask him to leave! I hope they haven't hinted at that? They can apply for extra funding and get the Early Years Area SENCo involved. They should put him on Early Years Action (EYA plus if a SALT is involved) and draw up an individual education plan (IEP) to ensure he has the same access to the curriculum as everyone else. The IEP should be SMART with achievable, measurable etc targets and interventions to ensure he meets those targets. You should bevinvolved in drawing them up and can put in strategies such as getting his attention before giving instructions and using simple language etc.

Find out about requesting Statutory Assessment for a Statement of SEN. The SEN code of practice link here has all the details. If your DS needs more support than is being offered a Statement will define his needs and support he requires and is a legally enforceable document.

You are just at the beginning of this journey. I hope you are looking after yourself as well. You will get lots of good advice on here.

Ha, I crossed with the other two as well!

Oh TotalChaos thank you for your reply. That's exactly how I feel. So grateful that they will take him for a few hours each morning I think I can't push it by asking them to give him special treatment as well!
They have made me feel that DS is naughty and that it's my fault :( We had no problems in the 2-3 class but the preschool is in a different building with different staff.
I do worry a bit though becuase on Friday they said that he was strongly objecting to having his nappy changed so they were just waiting for me to arrive and do it (with newborn in sling )
They have referred him to the Portage Inclusion Service but they are off for the summer hols now I think.

Zzzzz, private nurseries have the same access to Early Years at the LA as state ones. TBH, most nursery/playgroup places are private, so that's how it's set up. Different with private schools, though.

Oh gosh lots of replies.

None of these action plans etc have ever been mentioned to me by the nursery?! SALT are involved and he goes every 4 months for a review - he's been too young / not enough communication to do any actual "therapy" thus far though.

I have also had to abandon potty training as the staff have not been very supportive and hinted that they were "spending half the morning in the toilet" although I find him quite good at home with it and have only had 1 or 2 accidents.

It's a private nursery.

yes, we ran into problems at that age as well, they deliberately kept him in 2-3 class until over 3.5 (supposedly he was objecting to being put in a different class but the one time I personally escorted him to the 3-4 class he was perfectly happy . TBH I would be asking around at different nurseries, including school ones, they sound as if they can't be arsed. Put a separate thread on here re:SALT and what you can do - it's v. common for NHS SALT to be limited to assess/advise these days unfortunately, but you can try pushing for more, or at least find out more about what to work on at home with your DS.

Weakestlink, private or not they are bound by the Equality Act and have to make reasonable adjustments for your DS. If you are otherwise happy with the nursery, get in there and become a 'Pain in the Arse.' Every nursery has to have a SENCo (Special Educational Needs Coordinator) whose job is to ensure that DC with SEN are getting the support they need.

Oops crossed with Total. Should have said, if you're not happy with the nursery, shop around and find somewhere more inclusive.

Can I recommend a great book, Hanen "More than Words" to help communication with DC with ASD? Link here They do a non ASD specific version called "It takes two to talk" as well, but if you suspect ASD, the first will be better. May be too much to think about in one go, but the summer holidays are going to delay things and the Hanen books (recommended by my SALT) will give you a headstart.

weakestlink, your DS sounds very much like my DD (3.6), also severe S&L delay/disorder (also glue ear in the past but now solved) and loads of ASD traits, she is also generally a bit delayed.

DD went to private nursery until 3rd birthday. they didn't ask us to leave but did nothing for DD and claimed DD was absolutely fine apart from speech (I wish ). the only "support" for we received was holding her back in the toddler room (1-2y) until she was 2.4.

we took her out and she is attending one of the council's nurseries and is on EYA Plus (she is under salt and dev paed) and has an IEP. staff there are lovely and really supportive. DD is really happy there and has shown much more progress than in the other nursery.

not sure if that is private vs state or just coincidence. with hindsight I felt it was just easier for the private nursery to take the money but not bother about much else.

but if your DS's nursery has such an attitude I would probably think about changing nursery anyways.

good luck!

Thank you for the book recommendations I'll get on it... :)

Yes I might need to look for a new nursery I think... Shame though as DS has been there since he was 8 months and never had a problem until now.

I spoke to the manager (who is the senco) and she didn't seem bothered that DS was having problems tbh :(

Just to clarify - is a council nursery one which is attached to a school?

weakestlink, just saw you had a newborn. congratulations :-)

I took DD out of her unsupportive nursery (she was 2.9 then) as soon as I started maternity leave with DC2. it was really, really, hard having them both at home but maybe this is something worth thinking about if you think DS's need are not met at his nursery and keep looking for an alternative place in the meantime...???

not in our case. it is run by the local council but ours is not attached to a school.

Thank you chocjunkie actually I should stop referring to him as a newborn as he's 4 months now!

Yes it is very hard with them both at home - esp as I am breastfeeding and the baby latches off at the slightest bit of noise and noise is a great love of DS1 so the two don't mix well !

I will do some investigating on Monday as to where has a place and when but as far as I know there are no stand alone council run nurseries here only ones attached to schools... I am now armed with a bit more info now though so thank you all for that!

I have removed DD2 from a nursery that was unsupportive too, I htink many of us have. TBH as much as they should do what they are meant to and you are entitled to it, sometimes its easier to move schools that fight for it :(

Ask around your sn groups or on here and im sure someone can recommend a good one. Be aware that proffessionals arent allowed to recommend a certain school but you can normally gauge from their reactions.

dd2 was in a private nursery. if the private nursery allows you to use your nursery education grant from the term after three (even if they require you to top up) they have exactly the same access to the lea early years service, including assessments from the area inclusion officer, access to ed psychs etc etc etc ad infinitum.

unless it is a private nursery attached to a private school, and there is no link to either ofsted inspections or whatever, then there is absolutely no reason to move. just ask them to utilise their lea contacts and improve their relationship with the sn team.

sometimes nurseries are just a bit clueless and need a bit of a prod, esp with sn. you'll be doing them a favour really, and then they'll know what to do next time they come across a child with sn. looking for a mythical 'sn ready' nursery place is a bit like looking for a needly in the haystack. if you come across one, it's more by luck

just read up on ieps. read up on school action and school action plus. and then ask to discuss them with the senco. and then ask if they think it would be agood idea to get the area inclusion officer to come in and assess.

or just call the area inclusion officer at the lea yourself (just ask for the early years team and ask who deals with x nursery - it's very easy) and ask them lots of questions about early years and appropriate support. and then go back to the nursery with the info.

unfortunately, an awful lot of the sn road involves doing the mileage yourself as there's no one road map that suits every child, and tbh, no standardised destination!

but ultimately, if it is a private nursery attached to a private school and is not ofsted inspected or eligible for nursery education grant, you probably will be better off moving. even if it is to a different private nursery. getting a council place is usually impossible in most areas. (we managed it for a year from dd2's first birthday, but she was in receipt of high rate dla and we had no family support and i had two other pre-schoolers and a dh working away... the sn hv had to refer us to the panel. dd2 got 2 mornings a week) we then moved out of the area, and moved to a private nursery where the lea paid for 5 sessions of 1-1 care.

Hi madwoman no it's not attached to a private school and is ofsted inspected & eligible for early years funding etc so will have access to all the support like you say they are prob just a bit clueless... I am just a bit concerned at how negative they are being in their perspective towards my child. In the 2-3 class I felt the staff genuinely cared for and loved my DC but in the preschool I feel they think of him more as an inconvenience to them and I have started to collect him early as I hate thinking of him sitting on his own / constantly being told off / being unhappy :(

I don't think there are any council nurseries here so it will have to be a different private nursery. I spoke to one today and they seemed really positive :) It's quite hard not having a diagnosis but I just explained the difficulties DS is currently having. He could start there from September which would work well as we need to give 4 weeks notice at the current nursery. Their senco is going to give me a ring later in the week to discuss issues further.

Interesting to know 1:1 care was available... DS had an assessment with the HV today and he is being referred to child development team (?) for a further assessment and someone will also be coming to the house to assess him here. If they think he needs it he will then go to a special nursery where he is observed without me (or i can stay if i really want) and the HV did say that sometimes they offer a couple of sessions a week. She said all the "therapy" takes place while the kids are at this nursery - could this be the council nursery you are talking about maybe?

I wish I had taken notes on what the HV said as can hardly remember now and my DH is asking me what she said etc. Doh!

Weakestlink, council or LA funded nurseries vary hugely area to area. In my LA there is an early years special school which doubles as an assessment and development centre. My DS was referred there by an LA early years panel and stayed until reception. All therapies etc went on there. (eg SALT, occupational therapy.) But they seem to be few and far between and the level of SN often has to be quite severe. Your centre sounds similar, but maybe less severe SN required, or less sessions.

Most council nurseries aren't for SN alone and are often associated with Children's Centres. There are also Child Development Centres which I've less experience of, but also assess and develop children. That might be more like what you have been told about.

I loved the time my DS was in the Special School. People knew what they were doing, I made friends with other parents, there were so many opportunities for development. I hope things go well for your DS and your new nursery sounds much more positive.

weakestlink

"He has a severe S&L delay becuase of glue ear and is a bit of a "handful" at times."

Glue Ear, or Otitis Media with Effusion, is a way of acquiring Auditory Processing Disorder which is a listening disability, or having problems processing all sound based information you hear, which includes the speech of others, and can cause Speech and Language delays.

dolfrog yes could easilly be that... there is a checklist on this site www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/voice/auditory.html and he has all of those and more which might indicate he is on the autistic spectrum eg. hand flapping, only eats certain foods, lack of social interaction with peers, repeatative play... I could go on. It's so hard knowing what's normal 3 year old behaviour and what is a red flag!