Ds1(7) , AS, has no school friends. He is "THE naughty boy".

[Oblomov]

Ds1(7) crying in my bedromm this morning. Doesn't want tio go to school and has no freinds, apparently. First time he has said this.
suspected very mild AS. Tell me that his closest friend has been nasty to him again. Calling him an idiot and laughing at him with other boys. He has always liked this boy more than he likes ds. Not the first time we've had nastiness.
I can't say I want ds to like this boy as much as he does. I want him to have self worth to realise he deserves a better friend. But he is only 7. Plus I can't even think of/ don't even know any of the other boys well enough to know who I would prefer him to be friends with.

The second boy has bullied ds. But ds really likes him. teacher says its a love-hate relationship.

I think ds is just desperate for a close friend. and does not have one.

the friendship weeks, have no resulted in a close relationship. He plays with lots of the girls, often.

3 boys bullied him at start of term.

He was stigmatised as a naughty boy by the teacher and lost alot of minues, and I was not told about this. was cross with school.

We met a boy of his class in sainsburys yesterday. I only knew him by name. he said to him mum " thats Joe bloggs. He's the naughty boy". and she , all embarrased said, "don't say that, you can be a naughty at home". he said " no, hes' not just A naughty boy, he's THE naughty boy." " He always shouts out in class" (shouts out the answer, instead of waiting for his turn to be asked)

I went home. realised that the repercussions of how badly his teacher had handled the situation, at the beggining of term, had been worse than I thought.
Told dh. He said I was complately over-reacting.

Am I ?

oh my so sorry hes having and you are having such a hard time ive been exactly where you are now, well still am really it sounds exactly the same sittuation we found our DS ingetting bullied even by the boy he thinks of as a friend ( social cues and facial expression) and ive over heard a child saying the same had a couple teacher and one actually tell me DS is never going to do well and a few months ago walking behind a boy and his mum i heard him say hey look mum theres THE naughty boy in class i was telling you about.. my ds has been ignored to such an extent told hes stupid by a teacher stuck in the corridoor most days and bullied to such a degree i had to remove him from one school as they said each time we told them something had happened (oh not not in my school we dont have bullies here) and at his last school kicked and punched while everyone stood around chanting fight fight while DS got beaten up , where were the teachers and playtime staff??? i never found out DS is 10.9 at SS so im keeping fingers crossed now one day he will do as a nother MNr said on here the other day her i think was 15 yr old walked into school chatting to his new best mate that would be something id love to see as my DS has been telling me for the last 6 years ive no friends mum

I think when you're an adult and you look at the hurtful things that children do and say to each other you feel hurt and gobsmacked for them. We want nothing more for our DCs to be happy and confident - and get so upset when this doesn't happen.
Your post title reminded me of an incident with my brother (NT - apparently). He was at secondary school and had come home very upset. Mum spoke to him - and i asked her what he had said. Somebody had crushed a beetle in the playground on purpose. I couldn't se what the upset had been over this, but apparently this beetle had been my brother's only friend at school for the past term. Each breaktime he had gone to look for it and talk to it. The story still upsets me - but i see it from a mothers point of view now. Probably at the time i thought that the should just go and make friends.
The teacher does have the 'power' to affect how the children react to each other. My DSs all have children in their classes that are the 'naughty' ones - for various reasons - but they still have friends to play with. There is no guilt by association. The teacher should be able to let the incident go after it has been dealt with and move on - to set a good example for the children. You could maybe mention the overheard conversation - with no names. Say how upsetting it was to hear your own child being labelled in this way. Ask how this child had come to this opinion of your child, and what she/he is doing to make sure that even if your DS does a naughty action, that he is not being mislabelled as a naughty child.
Tbh, my dh thinks i overreact over lots of things - but i personally would rather overreact and deal with a situation than under react and be caught on the back foot when a situation goes belly up!

Sadly your ds's situation isn't uncommon for children with AS, my ds has been there and its horrible and heartbreaking for you as his mum.

Quick thought off the top of my head are

a) the teacher needs to do something to address the 'naughty boy' image. She can do this by obviously rewarding things he does well and by giving him a responsible job to do (my ds is the book monitor) so that the other children see him being praised for being helpful

b) they can use the buddy system to select an older child from the school to mentor him. This works two ways - the older child gets to feel good about being the older more knowledgeable child and your ds gets the kudos of having an older friend

c) they can address the issue via SEAL (Social and Emotional Aspects of Learning) or PHSE (Personal Health and Social Education) as it used to be called. To do this they could do lots of work about tolerance and good friendship skills etc either with the class as a whole or preferably as a small group of carefully selected children who can then build into a nice little group of friends for your ds. All children have to cover this under the SEAL curriculum anyway, so they might as well put it to good use.

If this is done in a more formal way its called 'Circle of Friends' and in our case the ASD Inclusion Team are working on it with my ds.

There's some information about it here and [[http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/education/special_education_needs/specialist_teaching_service/service_teams/autism_outreach_team/autism_team_resources/circle_of_friends.htm here].

I would recommend getting the Schools Specialist ASD Inclusion Team involved, they usually work with children who have or are awaiting dx and have come across this situation hundreds of times before, so have lots of ways of tackling it.

My ds was very similar to yours when he was in year 2, he's been through the mill starting juniors in year 3, but now in year 4 things are really coming together for him, he has a few friends and one particular best friend, so it can work.

The other thing that helped was a few sessions with the Ed Psych being able to talk about his worries relating to school and friends etc.

I do think your school has a duty to address this properly, especially as it was their own mismanagement that caused the issue in the first place. I would ask for a meeting with the teacher and SENCO and take it from there.

Good luck, I hope things improve for your ds really soon.

Oops, I'll try that second link again shall I?

here

As well as all the excellent advice offered above - does he have a pet of any kind?

Pets are amazing therapy for lonely or upset children with lots of differing needs. Other kids wanting to pet my lad's dog helped break the ice at the park, on the school run etc, which then flowed into the school environment. (If you try a dog for gawd's sake don't get a staff - it has to be a breed with a "nice" rep for this to work).

Also the totally unconditional love animals give is so soothing for almost any troubled child. Pets not pills could be a motto for good child mental health generally. Rabbits, cats - anything that can be cuddled in a crisis.

At 7 the way your son feels is a reflection of the adults - i.e the teachers and school, NOT the other kids. Young children only know something is wrong if adults teach them that it is. Part of any child's development is about civilising the savage and learning to have consideration for the feelings of others.

Every time I read this type of post, and there are lots of them unfortunately, I get so upset and cross.

It's so easy to understand why some high achieving kids do well and enjoy school as a learning experience. But, for those kids who don't have the ability to access sport, or be "in with the in crowd" or have differences which set them apart, the whole experience can be one of just "surviving" these school years.

You are not over reacting. You need to speak to the SENCO, the teacher and the head. Make sure they know exactly where you're coming from. Some time ago, I can remember having a similar conversation along the lines of "I entrust my son to you between the hours of 9am and 3pm. You have a duty to provide him with a learning environment conducive to leaning and well being. If you cannot do this, I want to know why". I found that attitudes changed considerably and we then went on to get a Statement, with the support of the school.

My son was a bit like yours. He was drawn to the one boy in the class who was his "friend" but unfortunately, this boy was something of a bully and certainly a boor. I can imagine him in 20 yrs time, propping up the bar at the rugby club, shouting louder than everyone else and being lewd and boorish......but I digress. Anyway, this boy belittled my son. He made him do stuff for him and was always "daring" him to do stuff and getting him into trouble and I have to say, dangerous situations. I put an end to it, even though it meant my son was then to all intents and purposes "friendless" and I had previously had a lovely friendship with the boy's mum. But, I ended that too.

Circle of Friends can work but it needs the input of the kids. A pet can work wonders for a child's confidence but as the other post said, it has to be the right pet!

Few people can understand the gut wrenching feeling of knowing how vulnerable our disabled kids are to the cruelties of the world.... whether that's other kids taking the piss, adults having a go, isolation and just not fitting in! It is my biggest sadness for my son who is such a cool little chap, clever, funny (great at art) and just wants, often, to fit in.

Wendihouse, I really like your "I entrust ...." quote - would you mind if I borrowed it? I have just picked up a very distressed ds1 from school and am clearly going to have to go and 'remind' them of their responsibilities towards him.

Oblomov, are there any social/support groups in your area for children with AS? It might be worth checking out? Also would joining a club be possible. Ds made, well not exactly friends, but acquaintances with a couple of older boys at the chess club and although they don't 'play' together, they would look out for him and are happy to have the occasional chat about their mutual interest (which is great, as it means the children in his own year see that he has 'bigger boy' friends).

Am at work. shouldn't be posting at all. Thanks for your posts. Have rung head. she said 'isn't he getting social stories', as if outside school. I said no, that it was suggested to you.
But becasue , he privately, didn't get a diagnosis, they dissed all the pyschologists view, re her "suggesteding they treat him as an Aspergers child."
Had him NHS assessed in jan. awaiting disco assessemnt , but could take 9 mths. Until then I am left with nothing. But he had been o.k. at school until recently.

Oblomov, you definitely have enough for them to bring in the inclusion team. If they don't want to do it, any professional, including your GP or HV can request a referral for you.

You can usually get their details off your Local Council/LEA's website.

I would definitely give them a call and ask their advice. It was making that phonecall that was the catalyst for the school finally sitting up and taking notice of my ds's problems.

You say he is 7? Has he just gone into juniors or is he in year 2?

I ask because transition to juniors is often really tough on children who have AS, my ds coped up until year 3 then went into total freefall and he is at a primary school, so there was no change of school.

If he is in year 2, you really need to push the school, now.

Is he on School Action or School Action +? Does he have an IEP?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get a handle on the situation so I can perhaps offer you better advice.

I have to go and do homework with ds2 now (flipping SATs prep ) but will check in later to see if I can offer anymore help.

He is year 2. primary so will be here for a bit. he has nothing. went meetings with head, teacher and senco and they dissed everything becasue he doesn't have diagnosis. I mentioned IEP, statements in the future, etc. NOTHING. He gets nothing from them.

Right, am back.

First of all, he doesn't need a diagnosis to get help. They are seriously messing you about here.

What did they say at the NHS assessment in January?

If there is significant concern enough for him to be going through assessment, he should at the very least be on School Action, with an IEP and the school should be putting in appropriate support for him. It definitely sounds like the teacher is aware of his difficulties, so there's no excuse for them not putting in the support - they have absolutely no excuse for not working out a plan of support for a child they know has problems.

To be honest though, if he's that unhappy there, has no friends he's attached to and they are that neglectful of their duty/responsibilities, I would seriously be looking into moving him to a different school, if possible. As you said, he has a number of years to go in that school and they have already shown their colours with regards to SEN.

If you really want to keep him there, you need to borrow my steel capped butt kicking boots and Carrot's pointy stick and head into battle I'm afraid.

Find out the number of the Inclusion Team off your LEA site as I mentioned before and call them for advice, then do the same with the Ed Psych service - I contacted both myself and if I hadn't, my ds would still be without support and probably have had a breakdown by now.

IEPs and statements aren't just for academic achievement, my ds and others I know of on here are actually very able academically, but struggle with social and communication skills and in some cases appropriate behaviour as well. The school doesn't only have a responsibility for his academic education, social and communication skills etc are covered on the curriculum under SEAL and if your child is having problems in this area the school should be doing something about it. At the very least he should be on School Action and you should be involved in developing and regularly reviewing an IEP for him, along with his teacher and the SENCO.

Get hold of a copy of the SENCOP (SEN Code of Practice) here and familiarise yourself with it, then inform the school that they are failing to meet the terms of the SENCOP by failing to give your ds the support he needs to achieve either academically, socially or both.

If you want to keep him in that school, you are probably going to have to grow a rhino hide and make yourself unpopular - but if that's what it takes to get your ds the support he needs, it will be worth it - I promise. Our Head looks for somewhere to run to when he sees me coming these days but I don't care, making sure ds is happy and supported is all I care about.

Keep in your mind that you aren't asking for anything that your child isn't entitled to and you have right on your side.

You could write a letter to the Head (so that it goes on record) detailing exactly what you expect them to do to support your son and where and why you think they are failing him - mentioning the SENCOP in there somewhere would help as well.

If they still won't listen, contact Parent Partnership (again details should be on your LEA website) and get them to talk it through with you and then arrangen a meeting with them in tow to thrash it all out.

Sorry if I seem a bit ranty, it just makes me so mad when schools try buck their responsiblities and let children down. As Wendihouse said, they have a duty of care to your son that they are clearly failing to provide.

It makes me so angry to keep hearing this story over and over - thank heaven for places like this where we can ask for support and information. I would have been lost without MN SN board and its mostly thanks to advice and support I've had on here that my ds is now getting much needed support - more is still needed, but I've toughened up over the past couple of years and he WILL get what he needs to see him through.

Good luck and please come back and ask if you need anything else.

Good luck.

I so know how you all feel.Good advice,as always, from Moose*.
My ds is like this,has no friends and yesterday came home with a stress rash all over his face.Have serious complaint onging at the moment and just feel the school don't want him there. The Senco has today been looking daggers at him! One of his teachers is refusing to reach him so he is missing 2 subjects a week. She even told the rest of the class how nice they were to teach when ds wasn't there! I am so tempted to move him but am worried how difficult this would be.He only has a few months left but can't go through every day being this upset.

You've been getting such good advice from the other posters, can't really add anything much. As has been said before,support is supposed to depend on need, not a DX, but it is much harder without a DX. Just wanted to add my support, really.

Oh DameE, poor ds and poor you.

Would you consider home schooling if he only has a few months left there?

Just looked at my mahoosive post!

You caught me on the back of my anger towards ds's teacher this afternoon - not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but generally channelling the anger into proactive butt kicking can at least cathartic even if its not always productive.

Hope you can pick up my anger and run with it.

Hiya Moose - no there's no way we can do this unfortunately. The sm though doesn't specify the junior school,only names secondary so this might be a plus as sm would not need to be re-written.
Will see what happens at meeting but I don't see how they will be able to wriggle themselves out of the latest monumental cock-up! Then we have to decide if keeping him there when Senco is useless and has a personal grudge against us is going to be worth it!

Good luck with the meeting DameE. Hope you can sort something out for your ds until he goes to secondary.

Thank you for the posts. Am ploughing through senco document. I have spoken to parenting before, who said they would attend school meeting with me, because school were so objecting and putting up barriers to anything. will give them a ring tomorrow.

Update:
Rang headmistress and then home school link worker. then e-mailed senco copy of the CAMHS letter which says he is 'complex' and thta the is awaiting DISCO assessment.
Spoke head today. 1)He will be given socail stories classes, in the afternoon. that could take a few weeks to set up. I will be sent a consent form. 2) Teacher will ahve a talk to children about behaviour, treating eachother nicely.

I thoiught about it. Then rang dh. Then went back to head. Told her 2wendi's quote, "duty of care, labelling, mismanagement". Asked that not only a general discussion, but a specific one in relation to ds ( maybe he should step outside this point, and be asked to take the register to school office for e.g) thta he is not the naughty boy.
She said she would give that some thought.
What I shoudl have donw was pin her down, to tell me when she would make a decision.

Bit worried that I have 'fluffed it up'.

when I spoke 5to school link worker, she said she would suport me by attending a meeeting, if thtas what we chose.
But she said to wait and see what Head said.
So now head has said. He has not had much bad behaviour is class. so I guess they will still claim there's nothing wrong.
Do I still need to call the inclusion team, as moose suggested ?

I am not really sure what else he needs at school. I know he is doing o.k. academically, but i think he could do better. lonliness wise and friends wise is a different issue. but they think i'm mad and that theres nothing wrong with him.
I did mention to head about a buddy. but she made no comment.

I know this sounds pathetic, because I have been given lots of good advice, and I do feel a bit of a twit writing this, but I am not quite sure what exactly I am supposed to be demandingpolitley asking for.

I would say yes, you still need to call and talk it through with the inclusion team. Their observation of ds in class was a real eyeopener for us, as obviously we don't see what he's like at school and his teachers were completely missing a lot of what was going on for/with him. When the Ed Psych came in to do her observation, it completely backed up what the inclusion team observation report had said.

My ds is a high achiever academically, but that's in spite of his problems and knowing what we do now, its a miracle he's done as well as he has.

CAMHS has already told you/them that he's complex and he's awaiting assessment, that's enough for the school to put additional support in place for him around social skills.

In my ds's case, the inclusion teacher is basically working with him around social skills and this is also being supported by the SEAL group he attends once a week (as part of the curriculum).

Given that they say he hasn't displayed much bad behaviour in class, how has he ended up with the 'naughty' label? You mentioned earlier that the teacher had mishandled things at the beginning of term. It would be interesting to hear if she agrees with the Head that there are no problems in class.

If he is crying in the morning and not wanting to go to school, the school should want to do something about it as they are obviously failing him on some level.

I would still make the phonecall to the inclusion people, if only to talk it through. If they don't feel their involvement is necessary at this point they will tell you, but they may also be able to give you some ideas as to what the school should be doing to support your ds and/or point you in the direction of someone else who can help.

Moose, you speak sense. I like when someone just tells it to me straight. And you have done that, so I thank you very very much. I will read your post to dh and I will call them tomorrow. definitely.

moose, this is what happened int he autumn term:

"Found out that ds had had a behavioural chart and has been losing 15 minutes a week, for the last few weeks. I wasn't told.
Headmistress rang me. I had phoned to complain of the teasing. He is called : "naughty boy", "bad boy", "minutes mintes minutes" , "i'm going to make you lose minutes".
She dismissed everything as over-exagerating.

I asked if a more postive way could be found. And she basically said no, this was their policy. I asked if she'd read pysch reports. she said she had. "and that it clearly says he is not AS". I asked her about , that the pych had recommended becasue of his poor theory of mind, he be treated as an AS child. she dismissed that.

I drive to see Deputy Head. His teacher last year, who i liked and he adored. She was as insistent.
Thy see no as beahviour in school. then why has he been losing minutes for a month, had a beahioural chart for 2 weeks, and losing 15 mins per week.

she said the children who reported these things were unreliable. how did the other children know he had a behavioural chart. ds says in was up on the wall. his friend said it was too. teacher denied this and said it was discreet.

I asked deputy, becasue he has said that he wishes he was dead, and hadn't be born. to atleats see what could be done.
ie positive.
she said something like" why should he be encouraged, when the other children do ths naturally."
This just about summed it up for me. they blamed his recent behaviour in school ont he fatc I had taken him to be assessed !! Paed and pysch said this was out of the 40's !! But it was SENCO who told me that he needed a pyschologist.

I give up. They refuse to do anything other than their standard discipline policy.

I have tried appealing to them, but they just won't have it.
I have a child who is struggling, but with no diagnosis, I have nothing."

Oh Oblomov, your poor ds.

If I'm totally honest, if I were you I'd probably be looking into moving him to a different school. My reasoning is that they clearly don't have your child's best interests at heart:

• They have dismissed a professional Ed Psych report detailing his poor theory of mind.

• They have contradicted themselves and said there are no problems in class, whilst at the same time putting in behavioural modification/disclipline techniques precisely because there are problems in class.

• They would rather make the assumption that any problems which might arise are down to bad behaviour, than accept that he might genuinely have some problems that they need to offer him help and support to mitigate/overcome.

• They refuse to accept that they should make reasonable adjustments for a child who has clearly been identified as having additional needs. (He has been through and Ed Psych and CAMHS, both of which felt there was enough of an issue for him to undergo further assessment.) They are in fact in contravention of the SENCOP by doing this.

• They seem to think they are better qualified than the professionals to identify behavioural vs SN. Not even SENCOs are qualified to do this, some may be able to spot potential signs and refer on, but they are not qualified to decide whether or not a dx is appropriate. Head teachers are even less qualified to do so. Even if your ds doesn't get a dx, he should still be entitled to support from his school. The professionals have clearly identified problem areas for him - even if they aren't 'bad enough' to warrant a diagnosis. Support should be given based on need rather than dx anyway.

• Any school that doesn't want to help a child who is clearly unhappy and distressed and has even gone as far as to say he wishes he was dead, is not the sort of school I would want my child to attend.

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try you just aren't ever going to be able to change their attitude and if that's the case, its much better for your ds to move him to a school who will, listen, understand, care and support him.

You can still make the call to the inclusion team and have the chat, but it might be worth looking into other local schools as well.

Good luck.

I maybe in denial, but I can't seem to contemplate the idea of moving him. Only becasue all the other schools in the area are so awful. I have no idea how far I would have to travel to get him into a decent school , especially AS, when he is so mild, thta I can't even get a diagnosis.
where do I go , who do I ring to find this out ?
No good pulling him out, only to find the best school is over 30 miles away, and with a ds2 and my diabetes, I just can't do it !!

I have searched and searched re a surrey Inclusion Team. a phone number just to ring for advice. I can find nothing. BUT, funnily enough the document one document I have found is written by the FourS consultants, where i used to work, ( I do accounts). Maybe I can give someone there, who i used to know years ago, a ring.

I have talked to dh. We are both frightened. frightened at admitting that the school is no good. frightened at the alternatives.
I bet your getting a bit pissed off with me and wish I would grow a pair of bollocks. Sorry.

I will copy and paste most of your post moose,and use that as the basis of my letter to head. but first I will ring inclusion. Dh thinks this is best.

Funnily enough I have just read schools SEN policy and it does mention Inclusion Co-ordinator, working with Head & SENCO.But it is very unclaer as to who this person is. Is it an outside source, and how to contact this person.

I feel like what I am writing is not making sense. sorry.