EHCP support thread no. 4

[Phineyj]

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

@RibbyJumper I feel your pain. It is exhausting isn't it? My DH always says that the thing that winds me up the most is people who cannot, or will not, do their jobs properly. And he is right. If someone is being paid to do a job, I expect them to do it to a reasonable standard - and follow the law, statutory guidance, professional standards etc. It saddens me daily that so many professionals I come across do not seem to have any pride in maintaining these standards. I do understand the high pressure environment of SEND work but I still think that LAs that allow their staff (and mostly encourage it!) to do less than the minimum should be held to account. Our LA's own complaints team are complicit in not caring about the law or whether their staff follow it.

I am planning to complain to the LGO once we have got through all this. I looked through our LA LGO decisions and in over 75 complaints, they only had 1 that was not upheld.... so it does seem that even then, they don't care.

but surely caseworkers (and their bosses) are trained to have that knowledge of the law before they write an EHCP?

No, they are trained in LA policy, which is often unlawful, rather than the law.

And they have massive workloads and are not well paid. I very much doubt caseworkers come to the job to have low standards and can’t be arsed. I think they are completely overwhelmed and anecdotally there is a very high turnover, which says it all really.

It does grind my gears, the amount of work I had to do for free for the LA to get the EHCP.

I would imagine it's not a fun job and if people could do something else, they would.

DC have offers from a small wholly independent 'therapeutic' school and the LA is supposed to respond to the offers by this Friday. The school rang me today to ask if I've heard from the LA and to say that they now only have one place remaining in DS's year. I told her that in my experience, the LA always waits until the very last minute to respond to deadlines.

She also seemed a little surprised when I said our hearing dates are in May and we think it's likely that the LA will oppose the placements due to cost. We instructed a solicitor two weeks ago and I've asked them for an update. I guess as a wholly independent school they could withdraw the offer if they want? Maybe they have a family willing to pay the fees? I would be really upset and angry if that happens. Surely it's pretty standard for families to be in appeal for schools like this.

There is no other school that would work for DS, so if we do lose his place, then we'd need to shift to appealing for EOTIS. But I think being in a physical school would be better for him.

Yes, wholly independent schools can withdraw an offer or set a deadline. And, yes, many have to appeal to get a wholly independent school named in I.

@handmademitlove

I’m wondering if some of it is because they don’t ever meet the child, so don’t have the emotional investment that we have as a parent.
But I can’t understand not knowing the law. They MUST know from - what I can only think are daily complaints and appeals??
Although me as a novice - trusted the professionals in the beginning, saw a 25 page document, thought they must know better than me. Do they think many parents won’t attempt to challenge so do the bare minimum?? Is it just disingenuity?
And then for this mindset to be replicated in every LA across the country…
My thoughts:

1. I think many trained teachers want work that they can fit around childcare once they have their own children. To reduce demands on caseworkers, could they WFH and use their teaching knowledge to at least help with draft stage.
2. Section F should have a table or format for clarity.
3. Many private schools are struggling/closing due to the VAT hike. Can private schools work with LA’s to support SEN placements if state schools are at capacity (and attempting to offload as with my son).

What’s grating me at the moment is - in the email string, the SENCO is gushing with praise/thanks to the caseworker. Yet all the inaccuracies I’m highlighting - no acknowledgement at all. My email about ‘no he still has SALT provision, this needs changing on the EHCP’ was met by pure silence from the SENCO.

@RibbyJumper you are right about not knowing the child. Every professional that has met DD has started with a "paperwork" understanding of her and by the end, commented about how complex her needs are and that they will consult with colleagues / bosses as they aren't sure how to help!

As others have said, I think it is a situation where case workers actually not being "professionals" in that they are not externally trained to a standard, but are essentially admin staff. Trained in the process used by the LA. So actually, at this point in the process I feel I have a better understanding of the law and code of practice than they do!

With regard to your issues with the Sendco, this again is about training and experience. Most Sendcos get their training from the LA. Who have a vested interest in teaching them the things they want them to know. Hence they tend to parrot the LA lines about not qualifying for a needs assessment, or needing more review time.before applying etc. Class teachers have very little training in send (recent trainees I know did a half day!). So actually have no idea unless they have an interest or plenty of experience. And most of the time the EHCPs they see are poorly written so they assume that is normal. I haven't seen many well written ones within our LA - I would quite like there to be some best practice examples to look at!

My DDs head of year is autistic. So this year I have had to do far less arguing about what she can and can't cope with - he gets it and preempts my emails usually, with a "DD can have a different option if that would help" on any changes to timetable. It makes such a difference.

@RibbyJumper I don't think they care. Individuals may and do of course. Parents are highly motivated (but understandably don't always manage to crack the system).

Firstly, I think those individuals writing the plans are not that bright, not that well trained and not particularly motivated. Why would there be when there's no reward for doing a good job as opposed to a half-assed one? (in fact I imagine they could actually get in trouble if they spell out too clearly what's required to be funded).

The councils are under a lot of pressure to save money. That cascades down the chain. It is, sadly, cheaper to do as little as possible and risk that you may need to contest some tribunals down the line.

It pushes the cost of actually funding anything down the line, maybe years.

Even when they do have to put the provisions in place there are many ways of avoiding paying for them (and quite legitimately, they can argue shortages of the appropriate professionals and services and equipment).

There is no real punishment for breaking the law. My local authority doesn't even put names on their letters any more. There's a generic phone number and email. I find that very telling. They know what they are doing is wrong.

Our EHCP came through last June and we have not had one single contact with the case worker. We've never met or spoken to him/her. Our daughter's been at the secondary named in the plan for 6 months now. If that were me, spending public money, I'd want to check occasionally how things were going. I'd give my name. That would be normal wouldn't it?! Even the NHS manage that?

This is all compounded by the fact that the system is so devious, impossible and messed up that no-one who isn't directly involved believes you when you try to tell them about it (that includes my colleagues, experienced teachers who teach kids with EHCP every day). I don't think I'd believe me tbh if I went back in a time portal 5 years.

No one with any decision making power is looking for solutions. Too expensive, too difficult and (I hate to say this) scratch below the surface and a worrying number of people seem to think anyone "different" doesn't deserve accommodations and education.

All I can think is it's going to be a chapter in a history or sociology book some day along with the infected blood scandal, the post office computers and the PFI projects!

I just want to add we've been really fortunate with SENCOs. All the ones we've dealt with have been absolutely fantastic (with a couple of exceptions where they were stressed by factors outside their control, but they were still kind and professional).

There are good people out there but the system is corrupt.

Also to respond to @RibbyJumper's point about EHCPs, teachers could absolutely draft them well. I drafted my daughter's. It was a lot better than the LA's effort, if I say so myself!

But! And this is a big but maybe they would not want to. At least, I gave consideration to doing it myself but the two years I spent on my daughter's did me such moral injury I just couldn't take money to get involved with other people's professionally.

I was given two well drafted examples from different LAs to mine (via contacts). They absolutely can be drafted really clearly and intelligibly.

Sadly I was unable to make the pile of tosh I got from my own LA into something similar although I improved it a bit.

It was oddly reminiscent of trying to give a weak student feedback on an essay they've written without fully understanding the subject matter. Better to start from scratch 😂.

@Phineyj I wholeheartedly disagree that teachers writing EHCPs would on the whole lead to well drafted lawful EHCPs.

Many teachers are schooled in LA policy and have a shaky grasp of SEN law. For example, many are not aware SCP/HCP which educates or trains is deemed SEP and therefore belongs in F with the corresponding needs deemed to be SEN and thus in B. Many are oblivious to the requirements for PfA provision or what it entails. Many believe the LA myth that EHCPs no longer contain dedicated 1:1 provision. Further to this, lots fail to realise this can be a consistent 1:1. Lots do not recognise woolly and vaguely wording and fail to understand the implications of woolly and vague wording. I could go on. You only have to look at what nonsense some schools tell parents about EHCPs now to see this - e.g. this LA doesn’t do 1:1, the EHCP gives us suggestions and we decide what to implement (yes, this is a real example that isn’t rare), that (therapies, equipment…) doesn’t go in EHCPs…. Look at how poor some SEN Support plans/IEPs/provision maps etc. are and they are far simpler than EHCPs.

Then there would be a conflict of interest. You sometimes see this now with AR paperwork, consult responses and SENDIST evidence. It isn’t uncommon for schools to fail to recognise some or all of a child’s needs or the provision they require. EHCPs should be written based on the child’s needs, not on what a placement can provide. All too often, EHCPs are written in a way that attempts to shoehorn a child into a particular placement. That wouldn’t change. It would give schools the opportunity to scaffold the provision in a way they can and want to deliver or conversely in a way that reads as though mainstream is completely incompatible even when it isn’t. Then you move to the complex cases involving EOTAS/EOTIS/with or without the C on the end. Many schools do not have the first clue about the law surrounding that.

You may be able to write a good lawful draft. Many would not.

@RibbyJumper unfortunately, many parents do not realise the EHCP is poor until DC isn’t getting the support they require and they try to enforce it.

Section F can lack clarity even in a table. Don’t be fooled. LAs can make anything look unclear.

EHCPs are written based on the paperwork rather than the actual child. This is why it is important the evidence is complete and accurate. So often there is a gulf between the actual child and the evidence.

@RibbyJumper there are DC with EHCPs in the independent sector.

Yes I agree there would be a conflict of interest.

I have no idea what the LA my school is situated in's policies are though. I don't live in that LA and my students come from a variety of LAs. Our SEN team don't talk to us about LA SEN policy. That's not something classroom teachers would generally be aware of.

However, SENCOs over the years have, off the record, shared their opinion of the different LAs with me. But that's because they know I have a child with SEN.

@Phineyj most classroom teachers will be aware of LA policy even if they don’t realise it. For example, being told there is no point applying for an EHCP for X because he won’t get one, local special schools are full so Y needs to go on the waiting list, and this LA doesn’t include 1:1 in EHCPs.

Well yes, obviously I heard all that stuff myself as a mum.

The advantage I had was a lot of experience with other bureaucratic environments, outside education, where management is economical with the truth.

So while I didn't know exactly how I was being misled (lied) to, I knew that I was.

Which brings me back to you may to able to write a good lawful draft, but many would not. Many teachers do not realise they are being schooled in LA policy rather than the law.

Quick question please: can anyone suggest what actual pupil ‘very small class size’ being needed (SENCO) and ‘small class size’ (SALT) might actually correspond to in pupils per class from some professional reports? Obviously this would really affect what kind of school we try to go for. Thank you.
I am reading all the posts and really just want to share my sympathies with everyone going through this horrible stressful experience. Best of luck to everyone.

Also if one report recommends an alternative provision and one recommends mainstream with 1-1, where will the outcome land, typically?

Small/very small class sizes could be anything from 2 to in the twenties and anything in between. This is why it is important for reports to be detailed, specified and quantified.

Placement depends on the evidence as a whole. Wherever possible, LAs usually go with MS (and not always with 1:1) whenever that is remotely indicated. Although it is also worth noting you can have a mainstream named in section I and still have AP, e.g. some DC will attend MS 3 days a week and go to an AP 2 days per week.

@handmademitlove

The SENCO at DS’s current school - I don’t ‘get’. The SENCO at his preschool was amazing, approached me all the time, pointed me in the right direction, sent me emails/links for help.
Current SENCO - I went for a look round at the school, told her DS was coming - and she didn’t greet him, she sat at computer - waved. That was it.
However, she is deputy and does seem experienced. Non- teaching. She never approaches me. She was going to put DS as ‘cannot meet needs’ before he started. Her wording on the EHCP has been that DS is extremely passive or ‘he can’t’ - all very negative. I’ve tried to reword it - so is it really that he ‘can’t’ - or do we need to
look at support/environment.
There is almost an innate empathy that some people have, and when you find those people - it’s like striking gold. Which sounds like your DD’s head of year. My DS’s preschool key worker/SENCO have it, DS’s best friend knows immediately if someone feels sad.

@Phineyj That’s true. It is emotionally draining. I feel like a problem parent, I hate opening the next email, I lie awake planning how to word things. This thread is a godsend for the ‘rant’ and then I try to remove emotion and write email responses factually. I couldn’t imagine writing an EHCP for another child. I’d definitely want to meet the child I was writing about.
Yes - I’d love to see a well drafted EHCP!! There should be examples, a proper format.

@BrightYellowTrain Yes, although if the person had teaching experience but wasn’t actually part of any particular school so more impartial. I’m just thinking how tricky it was after maternity leave to return to work, and if I could have had a WFH job with a teaching qualification I would have jumped at it.

Do LA’s know and deliberately make things unclear? Doesn’t this just cost them more in the long run?

Yes, I currently work in a private school. I’m a bit dubious about some of the things that go on, but one area they really shine at is SEND provision. The cynic in me would say thats because they need custom and to get ‘bums on seats’. I don’t know if LA’s pay for some or part of that provision - but if they made placements affordable and a good option by working in partnership with the school… I just see state schools full, waiting lists for specialist placements and private schools struggling for numbers. I wondered if there could be a solution there.

Do LA’s know and deliberately make things unclear?

Without a doubt. Although some caseworkers do not have a good understanding of SEN law.

Doesn’t this just cost them more in the long run?

In the short term, it saves money because it kicks the can down the road.

Mid term, their obfuscation, lies, unlawfulness, delays… are still worthwhile from a cost perspective. Their actions still save money. Some parents won’t realise what is possible or will only realise a long way down the line. Some parents decide, for a multitude of reasons, not to pursue further action. Some decide to EHE. Some decide to move. Even if someone appeals, there are still months where the LA is not funding provision or funding less provision, and those months can save tens of thousands of pounds or even over £100k. Frequently, this delay also saves transportation costs.

If you look at costs over a longer period of time, it can lead to significantly higher expenditure. Some DC who may have needed a small amount of support if they had received it in a timely manner go on to need more expensive educational packages long term and extensive support throughout their life from health, social care and the welfare system, costs to the justice system. That doesn’t garner attention because it will be someone else’s problem. It is shortsighted.

Independent schools can be named in section I and therefore the LA is responsible for the fees and the provision in F. It isn’t the cheap option for LAs though compared to state MS and depending on the schools even some state SS. The independent specialist sector has its issues there has been numerous high-profile failings involving independent schools. It is a hot potato politically too. Some safety valve agreements unlawfully target moving those in the independent sector back into the state sector.

Some LAs will sometimes come to an arrangement whereby parents pay the fees and the LA pays the SEP, but LAs don’t have to do this and it is less common than it once was.

BTW ‘waiting lists’ for non-wholly independent SS is also somewhat of a myth perpetuated by LAs and some schools. Waiting lists don’t exist in the same way as they do for admission to mainstream schools for those without EHCPs. Some DC who are on the LA’s ‘waiting list’ for a special school will never have the school named in their EHCP because other parents who know the system will appeal then the LA will continue to claim to the first parent the school still doesn’t have a space.

@BrightYellowTrain

I’m just looking at the qualification that case workers need :

https://nasen.org.uk/page/send-casework-award

Mentions an understanding of the law?! Do they just skip over that bit, or is it more an understanding of how to bend the law??

How about contracting case workers on a case by case basis? Payment on satisfactory completion of a case. Then there is an incentive to get it right. I’d include a home visit in that which might stop case workers treating parents as a huge pain in the bum.

I will go back to the report writers. Thank you for your reply BrightYellowTrain