to think her behaviour is tearing apart our family?

[Instagrrr]

Possibly over dramatic but here we go anyway...

DD is 8, nearly 9 and has been on a downward spiral of vile behaviour since just before Christmas.

For example the other morning despite being given multiple warnings about getting dressed (always do 10 minute/5 minute countdowns) she was still sat in her underwear at 3 minutes before we are due to leave. This culminates in me shouting at her because despite 2 warnings and, you know, the fact we get dressed every day to get out of the house this is some massive shock to her. We are then delayed getting out the door as she’s still scrabbling to get ready. It’s almost like a control thing, and some days are worse than others. She tells me she couldn’t hear me then blames me for not getting her up early enough. We can’t leave any later as I have to go to drop them to school and head straight to work. I’ve worked since returning back from maternity leave, it’s not anything new.

It doesn’t happen every night(maybe 3-4 a week) but also the utter resistance to go to bed, sometimes she just downright refuses despite us giving multiple warnings and removal of privileges(which we stick to). Tonight after 20 minutes of trying to get her to go to bed, she just walks downstairs giving us attitude and answering back whilst throwing the meltdown of all meltdowns. I told her I’d tell her teacher and she spat in my face 😢 OH had to come get her as I ended up just screaming at her, I was so angry and disgusted. It was only at this point she actually gave in and went to bed.

By now, I’m crying, DS is crying, she’s crying and poor OH doesn’t know what to do for the best. We are both sat here absolutely drained with what feels like another evening ruined. The only time we ever argue as a couple is over stuff like this, it’s draining.

She’s extremely well behaved at school, absolutely a grade a student, she’s not being bullied and is popular and well liked.

DS has ASD so we are used to dealing with and de-escalating behaviours but I feel so clueless and helpless when it comes to this. They both get one on one attention, they aren’t spoilt at all with material things, we are emotionally available.

In the back of my mind something is wondering if maybe she’s possible ASD too? She’s nothing like DS in terms of character and seems sociable, empathetic, doesn’t have obsessions.

Any gems of knowledge or advice? Please no judgment, I don’t think my heart could take it today 😔

Pda - don't punish with no warning please x

We're just moving this thread over to the SEN topic for the OP.

I’d echo the pp who’ve said that behaviour is communication. Have you sat down with her and talked to her about this specifically, without anger, outside the heat of the moment? I know you say that you and your DH are emotionally available, but honestly, that’s not the sense I get from reading your posts.

It feels like you’re rushing to blame and judge her for the effect it’s having on you (even the wording of your title reflects that) instead of trying first to see where it’s coming from in her, what is going on for her that she has suddenly started behaving this way.

She’s a child, not some evil genius with a master plan to destroy your lives. A child who is responding to something in her environment (and if there’s nothing you’re aware of this could even be unconscious issues in you/your family, that you are unaware of but which still exist and affect her), or possibly her physiological or neurological make-up. Yes, she’s responding in a way that’s clearly very hard to deal with but nonetheless still isn’t a deliberate attempt by her to “tear your family apart”. She is your child. She deserves empathy. What is all this like for her?

I think it’s interesting that while you asked people not to judge you, I couldn’t help but be struck by just how much you seemed to be judging and blaming her. I don’t know the reasons behind her behaviour. Whether she has ASD, or dairy intolerance, or anxiety, or is just pushing the boundaries to see if your love really is unconditional, or is acting out some unconscious dynamic in the family, or something else completely different - the point is, there will be a reason. And the reason will be something that is not within her control to change by herself, because she is a child.

Talk to her about this. Don’t just tell her how it’s making you feel, ask her how it’s making her feel. Reassure her that you do love her unconditionally, and remind her you know how much she loves you. Because she does, whatever her behaviour looks like atm. Tell her you want to sort this out for her happiness and well being. Make her the priority, not the impact it’s having on you. Don’t judge her, any more than you want to be judged yourself. Above all, make her feel safe.

You sound so frustrated. I think no warnings straight to a punishment....You need to just punish at the point of not listening and move on rapidly. If she wants you to wake her up earlier wake her up earlier and explain you want her to get dressed if you wake her up earlier. You could smack her hand straight away when she's naughty if the step doesn't work / room .. not sure if it's legal but I have seen this on behaviour forums as a technique when all else fails.

No. Just....no. Absolutely no. Christ alive, absolutely 100% no. I absolutely guarantee that this approach will escalate this beyond all measure to a pace that no one wants to go. This is appalling advice.

@Instagrrr

I was the first poster, going on about laying clothes out. My son is asd and also pda - there are many things that he can do but the "demand" of having to do it is a barrier.

Just a thought of pda matches to anything - we felt ds fulfilled as much asd traits as he didn't, and pda sits in a different "zone" of the spectrum. Not always recognised locally so the alternative diagnosis is pdd-nos (professor elizabeth newson extracted a group of traits out of pdd-nos and gave it the name pda - it's slow catching on though endorsed by the national autistic society)

Sorry if I've missed important points upthread

@Dontjumptoconclusions

You have no idea what you are talking about. The fact that her brother is autistic means there is a fairly good chance she is too, and it is well worth considering.

It sounds tough but I agree with this

I think we all tend to forget how horrible being a child often is.
It's often scary and confusing and lonely, and every day tends to be about doing as you're told, all day, with little to no control over your own life. It's no wonder kids have breakdowns eventually

I would tackle this problem differently and certainly don't think punishment will work. You need to get her on side so that she will WANT to get ready in time. She needs to feel the motivation.

Talk to dd and try to understand what mornings are like for her. Figure out what bits she likes about the morning routine and which aspects she struggles most with. Try not to be overbearing but let her lead this talk.

Then........ give her control.

• Does she like to help prepare the breaks fats or for you to lay it all out?

• Encourage her to go shopping for breakfast food with her so that she gets to shape what happens with her in the mornings.

• Ask her if she prefers uniform laid out the day before or if she likes to pick all the bits herself.

• Create a poster together where you illustrate each step of the morning routine and what time it needs to happen. Laminate this. Let her choose a sticker and then move the sticker to each completed step. sticker can be a fairy or whatever she is into.

• have a clock nearby so that she can check the time and where she is at.

• reward her with something she really likes to do once she is dressed had breakfast, packed her bag and brushed teeth e.g. play a game, watch something, read play or whatever.

Key thing is to involve her and give her responsibility and agency.

If you run late, talk about how that makes you feel and ask what she feels about being late. Encourage gently that she will have to explain to teacher why she is late but don't use this as shaming punishment.

If she drags her feet before or after this intervention that's fine be late once or twice and then get back onto the above 'program'

I feel that with some children they just need to feel in control and feel motivated rather thanking dictated to.

her behaviour is tearing apart our family
I'd like to say that whilst I sympathise with your frustration it is NOT your dd who tears this family apart. You are using dramatic and very emotive language. You have become entrenched in a battle. try to take the edge off and relax, none of this is really a drama, it just is a routine that has gone wrong. The process needs to change slowly but surely.

Don't put too much pressure on your poor dd. Try and empower her.

Also find out if there are things going on in school that make her not want to get ready for school. She sounds little depressed and you need to understand what the source of her lack of motivation is. But do NOT engage in a power battle. We can never ever win it as parents but only spoil our relationship with our child. Also try to talk to her and gently and openly tell her how mornings make YOU feel, why YOU get stressed and allow her to see the bigger picture e.g. you work, being late.

I don't know why everyone here wants to "diagnose" this kid. The only condition she has is a lack of respect, which she might be seeing at school or TV or think its cool or whatever.
She needs some discipline. Something that will actually kick her into gear, if shouting isn't doing it, try something else. There's plenty of ways.

No poster can 'diagnose' a child on MN. It doens't work like that. Assessment for neurodevelopmental disorders is carefully considered and managed process that looks at all areas of development across the child's lifetime from conception and takes into account accumulated evidence and the views of several professionals.

In contrast to this, your assessment and declaration that she is free of any neurodevelopmental difficulties is ridiculous and judgemental, based on almost no information and is the type of drivel that makes life for parents of children with ASD a lot harder than it needs to be at times.

You could smack her hand straight away when she's naughty if the step doesn't work / room .. not sure if it's legal but I have seen this on behaviour forums as a technique when all else fails

FFS! There is some utter crap on this thread!

@cultkid You would advocate the use of physical violence on a small child because you read about it on an internet forum? Seriously?

Punishing children when you have no idea of the reason behind the behaviour is almost always harmful, ineffective and counter-productive. Doing it without even giving them a warning is even worse.

I’m Surprised so many people are jumping to ASD when 8 almost 9 is within the normal range for the beginning of puberty and the beginning of hormonal surges.

People are rushing because a) it sounds like our experience of ASD
b) her brother has an ASD diagnosis.

ASD in girls is still misunderstood. Treating it as if it is ASD/PDA will not cause any harm (as long as you don't use drugs), but trying to ignore ASD/PDA will cause harm and frustration if that is the issue.

I would suggest a star chart for yourself, where you give yourself a star for every time you catch her doing something right and praise it - set yourself the target of 10 stars a day. The "right" things can be very small - and may well have to be at first; but you are teaching yourself to spot the positive.
For getting dressed in the morning: start earlier, give more help, leave as soon as ready - even if it is early. For bedtime - does she want to talk?
Try to give alternatives rather than make demands.
My DD (20+): she told me she was going into town later. Then I said "...and you are going into Town later." She replied, "Don't tell me what to do, I won't go into Town then."
I then back tracked - as if I tell her what to do something inside her makes her not want to do it, even if it is something she wants to do.
A friends daughter woke up and needed to go to the loo, but knowing she had to go to the loo made her feel compelled to stay in bed - she told her mother how frustrating she found this.

You could smack her hand straight away when she's naughty if the step doesn't work I wouldn’t do this.

I wouldn’t do the naughty step either.

This is clearly:

High stress time in morning
High demands
High intensity (OP telling her time going down, 10 minutes, 5 minutes etc)

All the clues are right there.

Reduce the stress.
Reduce the demands. (No telling her she’s to hurry, up, no timing, no being cross at all)
Reduce the intensity - don’t be running around yourself OP. Get yourself up and ready for a week before you need to get DD up and just concentrate on her.

Just go in, wake her up, stay with her and take her through each step, calmly and gently. Don’t use your voice, just give her one piece of clothes at a time. Or point to the schedule. Be calm. If she gets stressed, back off the talking. Just stay there or calmly go out, if she needs you out of the room. Follow her lead if at all possible.

If it gets sticky at any point. Pretend to do it yourself and get it wrong and laugh, try out on her jumper, ‘what? It doesn’t fit?!’

The above works for PDA / ASD /

Try it OP. I guarantee it will make a difference.

I have lots of experience in this...

Instagrrr, just saw your thread and hope you are all ok. I have just published a book for children/young people and their families, and it's all about growing up and the difficulties we face. I thought it may be of some use to you and your daughter and your OH. It's on Amazon and can be downloaded as an ebook for mobile/ipad/tablet and also in paperback form. I have just changed the settings so that from tomorrow you should be able to access the ebook for free. tinyurl.com/qr7hsbq
I hope you are all ok and have been able to find some answers by exploring some of the suggestions that others have made in the thread. You clearly care for your daughter and your family and want the best for them all. It's so difficult being a parent at times.

this may be of interest its about oppositional defiant disorder.