to think her behaviour is tearing apart our family?

[Instagrrr]

Possibly over dramatic but here we go anyway...

DD is 8, nearly 9 and has been on a downward spiral of vile behaviour since just before Christmas.

For example the other morning despite being given multiple warnings about getting dressed (always do 10 minute/5 minute countdowns) she was still sat in her underwear at 3 minutes before we are due to leave. This culminates in me shouting at her because despite 2 warnings and, you know, the fact we get dressed every day to get out of the house this is some massive shock to her. We are then delayed getting out the door as she’s still scrabbling to get ready. It’s almost like a control thing, and some days are worse than others. She tells me she couldn’t hear me then blames me for not getting her up early enough. We can’t leave any later as I have to go to drop them to school and head straight to work. I’ve worked since returning back from maternity leave, it’s not anything new.

It doesn’t happen every night(maybe 3-4 a week) but also the utter resistance to go to bed, sometimes she just downright refuses despite us giving multiple warnings and removal of privileges(which we stick to). Tonight after 20 minutes of trying to get her to go to bed, she just walks downstairs giving us attitude and answering back whilst throwing the meltdown of all meltdowns. I told her I’d tell her teacher and she spat in my face 😢 OH had to come get her as I ended up just screaming at her, I was so angry and disgusted. It was only at this point she actually gave in and went to bed.

By now, I’m crying, DS is crying, she’s crying and poor OH doesn’t know what to do for the best. We are both sat here absolutely drained with what feels like another evening ruined. The only time we ever argue as a couple is over stuff like this, it’s draining.

She’s extremely well behaved at school, absolutely a grade a student, she’s not being bullied and is popular and well liked.

DS has ASD so we are used to dealing with and de-escalating behaviours but I feel so clueless and helpless when it comes to this. They both get one on one attention, they aren’t spoilt at all with material things, we are emotionally available.

In the back of my mind something is wondering if maybe she’s possible ASD too? She’s nothing like DS in terms of character and seems sociable, empathetic, doesn’t have obsessions.

Any gems of knowledge or advice? Please no judgment, I don’t think my heart could take it today 😔

Those are just two examples of regular issues we are experiencing.

Look into asd in girls - it sounds like executive function issues, and the whole bottling it up at school and releasing it when back at home (the fizzy pop analogy)

Plus, are there things that you could do to help, which you don't do because she's "meant" to be old enough to do them - often executive function issues will need extra support like laying out clothes etc

@LostInTesco thank you. Clothes are all laid out, she’s been able to dress herself since she was 2. It’s more the unwillingness of actually doing it

Look into pda autism. The controlling behaviour, appearing not to listen, Appearing popular and sociable on the outside.

Is it just since Christmas or is it long-standing and got worse? If recent suggest something is going on, holding it together all day and then outburst at home where feels safe. Must be exhausting for all of you

Behaviour is communication, OP. She's trying to tell you something. I know it's crazy-making but try to create a regular calm moment in the day where you can just be togdether, just the two of you. Just play a game of her choosing. Build up the good times and the bad ones will start to taper off

Could there be problems at school?

This stands out for me

"Tonight after 20 minutes of trying to get her to go to bed, she just walks downstairs giving us attitude and answering back whilst throwing the meltdown of all meltdowns. I told her I’d tell her teacher"

Why are you using her teacher as a threat?

It's up to you as a parent to set and maintain boundaries of appropriate behaviour and the consequences of poor behaviour.

It would be better to have a reward chart and set consequences than shouting vague threats that give away your responsibility.

A friend has had her early teen dd just diagnosed adhd. After many years of being fairly amenable, The last few years the child has been vile in the worst way. Puberty hit very hard.

@TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 in the heat of the moment I thought it would make her snap out of it, because she wouldn’t dare do it at school. I completely agree with you and it’s not something I’d normally say in fairness

I clicked on this because one of my DC has high functioning ASD and I know how it feels to have a child who really dominates family life and makes things difficult.

You’ve probably tried lots of this if you already have a DS with ASD and are used to managing that, but do you have a set routine? Visual timetable? (I have these for all of my DC, even the 2 NT ones respond well to their morning “before school” timetables). I’m strict now on the order things get done in (definitely no playing or tv until they’re completely ready for school), and it does help a lot (DH isn’t as strict with the timetable and this often leads to carnage on days when he’s in charge).

Bedtimes are more of a challenge - with my ASD DC I’ve had to throw a lot of energy at managing the few hours before bed - again the routine is strict (but calming). We’ve used the headspace app together to calm him down, and essential oils seem to help a bit. (One of my NT DCs is a bit of a nightmare at bedtime too - with her I just try my very best to tire her out during the day).

I try to have one “no demand” weekend morning each week where they can all stay in PJs if they like. We all need that to decompress.

. For us, keeping things on an even keel is just very labour intensive, everything needs to be planned and managed and kept a bit lower key than I might like. It took me years to realise that I needed to meet my DC in the middle rather than trying to get him to fit in to my plans.

Okay school and life is a lot for kids nowadays. Is she struggling at school finding it tough? I feel sorry for kids (I have my own similar ages). I wouldnt call this vile behaviour I'd call it troubled behaviour.

She isn't coping with the morning routine. You need to take a deep breath and remember none of this Really matters. Decide one morning it doesn't matter if she gets in on time and go very slow lh really listen and see if she is unhappy or being bullied or just finding it stressful

@RuffleCrow we do this every day, we have a game of cards or shut the box as well as reading and a good chat before bed. I absolutely hate that it seems like negative behaviour seems to be overruling the positive at the moment.

Ha, ha, ha,ha...

So sorry op, heard it so many times. Age 9ish some of them turn into right little buggers.. seems to be a hormone surge. ( Happens in boys too)

Add to that age 9 ISH is when dd's autism became more obvious

And yeah, we are four years into the getting dressed in the morning is a surprise and it is all my fault.

You do have my sympathy despite the laughter... it is the sort of laughter of bitter experience.

@Writerandreader it does matter if I’m late for work and lose my job because of it. Waking her up earlier and trying to get her dressed earlier doesn’t matter and it just prolongs it because she will (still what feels like purposefully) leave everything to the last minute.

I read about ten lines into your post and thought ASD. I am autistic, as is my daughter, and to the outside world we seem clever, reasonable and delightful. But when pushing into doing things at home we can both be spitfires and it is usually as a result of simple, repetitive tasks that we do all the time. I could have written your post about the morning routine for my DD when she was that age.

I was also going to suggest PDA. I think DD has it although she can seem very helpful when it suits her.

@IntoTheUnkown we do have a pecs routine chart, it’s like she uses it as a tick sheet of things she doesn’t want to do for that day

Have you asked her what she thinks would help her go to bed and get ready in the morning? What motivates her? Did something happen over Christmas or is she hiding something from you?

Yup, sounds like ASD is a possibility. It sounds very familiar - I can remember those days and I still have a lot of trouble getting out in the morning. My psychiatrist definitely agrees that my executive disfunction is bad enough to be disabling. Has she always been trouble at bedtime, ie is this new, or just ramped up?

Is it possible she's experiencing pre-pubertal hormonal changes? My 14yr old ASD son was hideous at times from age 10, his NT sister is just beginning this phase - all the toddler moody reactions, kicking her siblings over the least slight, many behaviours she stopped long ago are now her go-to. I am trying to give her one-on-one time, lots of positive reassurances when things go well, telling her sorry after I end up yelling, and generally doing what I can when I have the strength for it. In summary, it may be normal changes, but I also think it may be worth considering what PPs have said about a possible diagnosis.

I agree with asd possibilities especially in girls it presents differently.
Set up a reward for the next day, including her usual fun activity.
Went to bed well equals half hours on iPad etc.
Got dressed quickly equals fifteen min on iPad
Ready at the door equals fifteen minutes.

Set her up for success though.
Get Alexa to remind her at specific times, get her to get dressed when she gets up, so at the worst she's ready to leave without breakfast. Maybe have a breakfast bar or toast In the car.

Look into ADHD, and the PDA profile of autism.

Try following PDA pages on fb and using their suggestions about using declarative language. You can already see the things which are flashpoints, so you’re on your way to addressing this, and the ways you are trying to deal with them as escalating the behaviours you don’t want to see. So you already know what doesn’t work. This is good.

So my advice (from bitter, bitter experience): stop seeing how she’s behaving as ‘won’t’ and start seeing it as ‘can’t’. That doesn’t mean you can’t have boundaries, but it does mean your focus shifts.

Move this over to the SEN section because you’re going to get a lot of advice if you leave it here about enforcing even tighter and stricter boundaries which will not help.

My guess is that she needs kindness, low demand, probably going backwards by several steps in terms of ‘ability’ - if this is ASD or PDA then anxiety will be a huge underlying factor and giving her some form of control will be enormously helpful.

Message me if you like.

@comesavemenow she said that we need to wake her up earlier, we have tried this and she just does the same. Not sure with night time as she says that other friends don’t go to bed as early as she has to (they are in line with if not slightly later than their peers) and I’ve explained this to her. There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to it

I’ve spoken with school and they aren’t aware of any issues, she doesn’t have social media or tic tock or anything. She tells me she loves school but finds maths hard. Seemingly took a nose dive before Christmas which I put down to a bit of pre-Christmas tiredness but it’s carried on.

Oh, and if you look into it and do think PDA May be a possibility don’t do things like set up Alexa reminders or give countdowns or set conditions - the demand and expectation inherent in all those things will absolutely 100% make it worse