to think her behaviour is tearing apart our family?

[Instagrrr]

Possibly over dramatic but here we go anyway...

DD is 8, nearly 9 and has been on a downward spiral of vile behaviour since just before Christmas.

For example the other morning despite being given multiple warnings about getting dressed (always do 10 minute/5 minute countdowns) she was still sat in her underwear at 3 minutes before we are due to leave. This culminates in me shouting at her because despite 2 warnings and, you know, the fact we get dressed every day to get out of the house this is some massive shock to her. We are then delayed getting out the door as she’s still scrabbling to get ready. It’s almost like a control thing, and some days are worse than others. She tells me she couldn’t hear me then blames me for not getting her up early enough. We can’t leave any later as I have to go to drop them to school and head straight to work. I’ve worked since returning back from maternity leave, it’s not anything new.

It doesn’t happen every night(maybe 3-4 a week) but also the utter resistance to go to bed, sometimes she just downright refuses despite us giving multiple warnings and removal of privileges(which we stick to). Tonight after 20 minutes of trying to get her to go to bed, she just walks downstairs giving us attitude and answering back whilst throwing the meltdown of all meltdowns. I told her I’d tell her teacher and she spat in my face 😢 OH had to come get her as I ended up just screaming at her, I was so angry and disgusted. It was only at this point she actually gave in and went to bed.

By now, I’m crying, DS is crying, she’s crying and poor OH doesn’t know what to do for the best. We are both sat here absolutely drained with what feels like another evening ruined. The only time we ever argue as a couple is over stuff like this, it’s draining.

She’s extremely well behaved at school, absolutely a grade a student, she’s not being bullied and is popular and well liked.

DS has ASD so we are used to dealing with and de-escalating behaviours but I feel so clueless and helpless when it comes to this. They both get one on one attention, they aren’t spoilt at all with material things, we are emotionally available.

In the back of my mind something is wondering if maybe she’s possible ASD too? She’s nothing like DS in terms of character and seems sociable, empathetic, doesn’t have obsessions.

Any gems of knowledge or advice? Please no judgment, I don’t think my heart could take it today 😔

@BiscuitBarrels how can I get it moved please? And thank you so much for the offer, I’ll definitely do that.

I’m Surprised so many people are jumping to ASD when 8 almost 9 is within the normal range for the beginning of puberty and the beginning of hormonal surges. Especially as you say this behaviour has come about in the last few months.

I remember having a full on breakdown in school when I was 10 over a really trivial matter and the teacher explaining to my mum she saw it all the time at this age from kids who’ve never acted out before.

No words of wisdom I’m afraid, I think it’s a phase that has to be weathered with a mixture of compassion and appropriate punishment for bad behaviour.

I remember shocking my parents by suddenly answering back rudely at around 9/10. I had recently made a new friend and that’s how she spoke to her parents. I’d been shocked to hear her family interact but it did rub off somehow and I suppose I tried it out at home in the heat of being told off for something - might be unrelated but just a thought.

DD is 8, nearly 9

Both my DD were suddenly full of attitude then - DS bit later. Felt awful at the time.

Though I was probably still prodding them along at bed time and in mornings at that age - still working towards them being independent - reminding them what they were supposed to be doing and periodic checks that they were doing it - setting up routines for future.

Probably worth looking into ASD - maybe trying some of the de-escalating techniques you know on her see if there's any effect.

You could try making her sleep in the next days clothes. She can either put them on the night before or in the morning. I'd also take her in her pjs. Tell her she can explain it to the teacher. If you do let get dressed in the morning I'd make sure she gets dressed before she comes downstairs. None of mine come down on a school day in pjs. Another tactic is move through the morning together. Get dressed with her. Lay your clothes out in her room and do it at the same time. Race her. Make it silly. You've just got to break the pattern of resistance.

Btw, kindness wasn’t me being judgemental - I read that back and realised how it could come across. What I mean is that she needs to see everyone around her being kind because when this stuff spirals everything and everyone gets spiky and hard and the kindness starts to go; everyone starts to become on edge waiting for the next meltdown or kick off, including her.

That’s what I meant. Although I’m not sure I’ve done any better trying to explain it there either actually! 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think you need to report the thread and say in the box that comes up where you want it to go

Out of interest, why does it have to be autism or ASD? She could just be an absolutely pain in the arse 🤷🏻‍♀️

As I read the first few paragraphs I thought "she sounds just like my autistic 11 year old". My child can dress herself but if I want to get out of the door in a timely manner, she needs help.

I would research autism in girls and respond as if she is with the various techniques you could use and see if it makes an impact.

@itsamood no you’re absolutely right and sometimes it’s definitely that. I wouldn’t have thought about ASD, but it’s hereditary so is more likely that’s all.

Behaviour is communication

I wholly agree with this. Something is bothering her, some need is being unmet. Sometimes getting to the bottom of the issue is not as easy as we'd think. So I'd recommend active listening - ahaparenting.com is great for articles and advice on how to communicate with kids, and get to a place where they trust you enough to open up. Hard work, but transformative.

Also, have you heard of 'Simplicity Parenting'? It's a book mostly about reducing the amount of stimulation and stuff in a child's environment/day, but also about routine and regularity and boundaries, and how reassuring that can be for a kid. Might be useful.

Sounds to me like ASD, first thing I thought. High functioning Autistic girls often present very differently to boys with the same condition.

My DD is younger but we’ve had massive behaviour problems- all linked to tummy issues and dairy intolerance- what’s her diet like? We’ve cut dairy out and it’s massively improved the issue. Might be worth looking into?

Fully agree with PPs about reward system, the other thing that's really great for kids struggling with time management is something called the Big Red Clock (I think?) Which is a visual clock - they can see the time reducing - I have a younger brother with Asperger's and a sister on the Autistic Spectrum and my mum bought the clock for them.. but it helped all my siblings in the mornings! As it's a visual representation of time actually ticking away. I'll see if I can find a link.

There are certain things in the OP and the follow up posts that chime with autism (which is ASD btw), especially when she has a sibling with ASD. People with ASD and parents of children with ASD (or other SNs) are picking up those things for a reason. Nobody’s saying that’s what it is - how could we? - but what OP has said paints a picture which to several of us suggests that it could be a factor, in which case standard parenting techniques may not work, and might actually make it worse, especially if there’s a demand-avoidant profile involved.

@ScrimshawTheSecond I did a few emotional literacy courses as part of DSs assessment but that was some time a ago. I’ll check out both of those, thank you :)

This sounds like anxiety to me. Could be due to another issue (pda, adhd), could be plain anxiety.

I agree with pp who've said you should treat it as "can't", not "won't". Kids dont act like this for fun. They do the best with what they have.

Here you go it's not the cheapest but absolutely great for getting kids moving in the morning! www.exploreyoursenses.co.uk/big-red-timer.html (this sort of thing you can find similar online)

In the last year, my DS (9) has had dyspraxia and ASD diagnosed. Masks beautifully at school... I get the fall out...

He is not and never has been a morning person.

We've had a few breakthroughs on morning routine. One was when he was about 7 (after the horror of SATs... there was obvious but undiagnosed dyslexia thrown in too) and I opened up to the idea that there was more than dyslexia going on, and dropped "normal" age expectations over things like tooth brushing (co-ordination and sensory minefields) and took it over.

The other was using the fact that he is highly motivated to Minecraft. So the morning rule is that he must get dressed TO HIS SOCKS (very important detail ) then he is allowed Minecraft until breakfast time (he likes his food so that's a decent motivator) then the teeth/ hair/ shoes/ coat stage is done in quickfire shortly after. It is best left to the last minute and done with relentless pressure as we drift off in surplus time. I have always insisted to both DCs that it is your problem if you are late, but it is not fair to make it your brother's problem. (Admittedly DS1 did miss half his brother's birthday party as I insisted that he was not going without brushing his teeth, so DH took DS2 and I waited it out for over 45 mins for DS1 to be in a fit state to go)

He can struggle to shut down at night. Our expectation is that he rests quietly. If he comes down, the TV goes off/ is paused until he goes back to bed. Occasionally, he is clearly so alert that resistance is futile, and a temporary time to return to bed.

The diagnosis has helped with picking battles and recognising when logic is shutting down and a meltdown is brewing. He is getting better at going to his room (safe/ calm space) although it does help that I am still able to present a choice of him taking himself there or me taking him. At least him still being light enough to carry, the routine that he will be in his room has been established. He's then given a choice of does he want me (quiet or talking) or alone.

DS struggles to appologise, so after a meltdown we tend to debrief, what it was about, any other worries, better choices to make next time and hugging it out. Sometimes he needs tight squeezy hugs.

@LongGinShortTonic she was dairy intolerant when she was a baby interestingly. She doesn’t have a lot now. Maybe one small fromage frais type yogurt a day and doesn’t like milk to drink. She generally eats quite well, we don’t have the issues we had with DS regarding eating thank goodness

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/family-life/kids-morning-routine

This is for younger kids, but I think the basics may well hold true. And as far as ASD goes, if that's a factor, this approach is still likely to be very effective, in my experience.

Girls with ASD can expend huge amounts of energy on masking in school. Although it's exhausting, that doesn't mean they automatically dislike school. They can thrive on the routine particularly.

However, the stress of keeping under the radar, watching others to work out how to act in a socially appropriate way, managing the emotions caused by unexpected and planned changes to routine and the extra effort required to follow instructions and organise yourself will take their toll on a child in some way.

It may be that she wants to go to school as it's part of her normal routine but also dreads the pressure she feels there.

It may be that she doesn't understand her own emotions well enough to recognise the stress school places on her.

I was thinking ASD before I read that your DS has it. it definitely warrants some investigation. In the meantime, I would try to reduce demands, increase the predictability and routine in her life, cut down on activities that could cause sensory or social overload (even ones she enjoys if necessary) and see if you can reduce the anxiety and stress she might be experiencing. Whether this helps or not will give you valuable information in terms of the potential for a diagnosis of ASD.

Hormones.

Don’t rush to give her a label or diagnosis.

Evening primrose or starflower oil.

I'm so sorry she spat in your face OP. That must have been heartbreaking for you. I have no advice as I only have a 3 year old DS so no experience with children your DD's age but I just wanted to say I hope you are ok and that you get things sorted out soon

My younger DD was like that in the mornings. I also had a job and had to be there on time. One morning I went in to get her and she was sitting on the side of the bed, clothes beside her. I snatched up the clothes in one hand and her in the other. I put them both in the car and said if she wasn't dressed by the time we got to school - 15 minutes - she could go into school and dress in the restroom. She screamed all the way there but she got out of the car dressed. From then on I only had to pick up her clothes and head for the car and she went into top gear!