to think her behaviour is tearing apart our family?

[Instagrrr]

Possibly over dramatic but here we go anyway...

DD is 8, nearly 9 and has been on a downward spiral of vile behaviour since just before Christmas.

For example the other morning despite being given multiple warnings about getting dressed (always do 10 minute/5 minute countdowns) she was still sat in her underwear at 3 minutes before we are due to leave. This culminates in me shouting at her because despite 2 warnings and, you know, the fact we get dressed every day to get out of the house this is some massive shock to her. We are then delayed getting out the door as she’s still scrabbling to get ready. It’s almost like a control thing, and some days are worse than others. She tells me she couldn’t hear me then blames me for not getting her up early enough. We can’t leave any later as I have to go to drop them to school and head straight to work. I’ve worked since returning back from maternity leave, it’s not anything new.

It doesn’t happen every night(maybe 3-4 a week) but also the utter resistance to go to bed, sometimes she just downright refuses despite us giving multiple warnings and removal of privileges(which we stick to). Tonight after 20 minutes of trying to get her to go to bed, she just walks downstairs giving us attitude and answering back whilst throwing the meltdown of all meltdowns. I told her I’d tell her teacher and she spat in my face 😢 OH had to come get her as I ended up just screaming at her, I was so angry and disgusted. It was only at this point she actually gave in and went to bed.

By now, I’m crying, DS is crying, she’s crying and poor OH doesn’t know what to do for the best. We are both sat here absolutely drained with what feels like another evening ruined. The only time we ever argue as a couple is over stuff like this, it’s draining.

She’s extremely well behaved at school, absolutely a grade a student, she’s not being bullied and is popular and well liked.

DS has ASD so we are used to dealing with and de-escalating behaviours but I feel so clueless and helpless when it comes to this. They both get one on one attention, they aren’t spoilt at all with material things, we are emotionally available.

In the back of my mind something is wondering if maybe she’s possible ASD too? She’s nothing like DS in terms of character and seems sociable, empathetic, doesn’t have obsessions.

Any gems of knowledge or advice? Please no judgment, I don’t think my heart could take it today 😔

@itsamood - I was thinking the same thing. However, apparently in today's world there is no such thing as a simple pain in the arse when it comes to children!!!!

i saved this post from a few months back read the suggestions from hijenny35
amazing post
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3739780-Help-me-please?msgid=91479512#91479512

Do you use any positive reinforcement to encourage her good behaviour on the days when she is not doing this? Consequences have their place but positive reward is a far more powerful motivator for behaviour.

She would far rather please you than upset you. If you work your way up praising even the mildest behaviour you want to encourage and work from there it will help. You can introduce a treat as a reward - either a chocolate button for a small good behaviour, perhaps introducing a jar of marbles that results in a great treat when filled once she understands what the good behaviours are - she can put a marble in every time she does something good, and has to take one out for poor behaviour.

It's important children understand the criteria for success. If I ask a room full of people to draw a house for a competition they will all draw something that looks vaguely like a house. If I fail to tell them that a roof will give them 5 points and they will be given 10 points per window and 20 for a chimney then I have failed to tell them how they can win which isn't fair. Some will win by chance and some by fluke.

@AquaAquaAir there is no rush in the diagnosis system even if we did sadly 😂😩

Perhaps you could tell her when to start dressing, then start your phone stopwatch. Get on with your stuff, and when she is dressed and ready, record the length of time it took her. Put the results up in a list somewhere.

there is no rush in the diagnosis system even if we did sadly

I also don't think there's much risk of you tying labels to her as if she were a parcel.

Label is a term used by people who do are ignorant of what a diagnosis really means and the benefits brought by understanding your own or your children's biggest challenges and how having the information you need to help them to thrive in difficult situations can be life-changing.

Sounds just like my high functioning autistic daughter, when she was 8 or 9 it got worse and worse, felt like we were living with an abuser :(

Got diagnosis and she was given ADs for the anxiety, it has saved our lives. We went private as NHS waiting times so long. Good luck x

Actually dd takes evening primrose tablets too, they’re great for pms/pmt

Wanted to write because we are in exactly the same boat. DD just turned 8 and is really tough, we also have DS (10) who has ASD and ADHD.

DS's psychologist /ABA therapist and my mate who's a clinical psychologist have each separately said they don't think my DD has ASD but rather it's learnt behaviour from DS.

In our case, I do think our DD has inherited the anxiety and high-sensitivity (very easy to tip into melt-down when tired /overwhelmed) that seems to run our family but she doesn't have the whole host of other issues that DS is faced with.

In my head, I pretend she has ASD and treat her in the same way we treat DS with lots of support, timetables and routine, hoping all the while it's just hormones / being 8 / learnt behaviour and not ASD.

Good luck Instagrrr. Hope you get helpful responses on here.

Does she need a bit more "babying" in the mornings? My DD is the exact same age and not a morning person and while she does dress herself, she gets dressed in our room and we do keep "refocusing" her while we are getting ready ourselves. Same with breakfast, teeth, shoes, etc. She does them herself but we don't just tell her to get ready, we remind her to keep moving with each individual task.

When something isn’t working, you need to redial things back.

Don’t just be using words and timers, they are just outside pressures that she obviously cannot cope with, for whatever reason, at the moment.

So step right back from labelling this naughty.

It’s really pressurized in the mornings, and a high stress time. Keep it very, very unstressed. Concentrate on DD for a while and be totally calm.

I’d go in, wake her up.

Go back in 5 minutes later. Put her clothes on her bed and remind her of the first thing she needs to do. It might be taking off her top. Ask her if she wants you to stay and help, or to leave and come back fives later when she’s dressed. Just say it kindly.

If she wants you to leave, and when you come back in 5 minutes she’s not done anything. Then stay until she’s got totally undressed and has started putting on her clothes. You can turn your back to give her privacy, but tell her you won’t leave until she’s got her clothes on.

If she says no, that she’s quite capable, then say if she does two things then you will leave and come back in 2 minutes just to check.

No arguing whatsoever. No threats. Just calmly refuse to leave until she’s started.

If she’s really slow, and she’s late, then give a note to her teacher explaining she is taking longer in the morning but you are working on it. She will feel embarrassed about being late, so let that be her consequence. You probably don’t need to add to it.

Even if you have to be late yourself for a day or so that should get her back on track.

She basically needs more help.

I have an 8 year old exactly like this .

at home , loud , argumentative, violent , high pitch screaming ,rude , won't get dressed , won't go to bed , won't get up, won't wash or brush her hair , wont do anything without a row about it ,the cause of most argument between me and my DH etc

At school and I quote " gifted and talented in all area , an absolute delight "

One morning I got her to school an hour late , I was on my knees with it all , I was a snotty , crying mess and the head just happened to catch me , after telling her about it she arranged for the school nurse to come in and over a period of a few months she was referred to various agencies for assessment.

All referrals have been refused , CAAMHS have said she doesn't met their criteria (based on paper , they won't even offer her a first appt) , OT isn't interested, G.P said she just needed better boundaries ( maybe a bit true , but some days I just can't face the battle so if she goes to school unwashed and unbrushed , wears wrong weather clothes or has spent 3 hours screaming so be it )

Social services gave me a parenting booklet and wished me luck . School nurse is still monitoring her and checks in with me every few weeks but that's the only support i and she has .

If you find an answer , let me know . DD is amazing and I hate how I feel about her when her behaviours start , it can sometimes take me a few days to bring my own emotions down especially if it's been bad one , that's got to be affecting her too .

I hate myself more for not being able to deal with this . What makes this worse is the fact I am a conflict management and de-escalation tutor/ instructor , I teach this shit everyday , I can handle 40 adult males with challenging behaviour in a secure unit without even flinching . 1 tiny little 8 year old girl brings me to knees most days .

Not helpful to your situation OP but just so you know your not alone

Sounds a lot like me as a child, I was diagnosed with ASD in my 30s. DD is very similar at 6. Last year we had a nightmare time where she refused to get dressed...nothing ‘felt nice’, spent a fortune in uniform. Finally (after much unpicking) got her to tell me she was being bullied in the playground. I went into school, the situation was dealt with and she’s much happier now.

I highly recommend the book ‘The explosive child’ by Ross Greene. It helps you recognise the communication behind the behaviour (as a pp said, behaviour is communication!). The lovely thing about the book is it’s not aimed at parents with any particular diagnosis, it just helps you understand things better.

My daughter is also 8 and is exactly the same, every day is a battle to get her to get ready for school, to take off her shoes when she gets home from school, to go to bed. She's also developed a real attitude, has an excuse/answer for everything and can be really quite nasty to her brother and me and her dad. Incentives/rewards/punishments don't work at all and often make her behaviour worse. I'm absolutely worn it with it all. She and her brother have both been referred to the Autism Assessment Team but there is a waiting list of 18-20 months for them to get seen. In the meantime I've been referred to our local childrens centre for support, though its still early days with that.

With regards to getting ready in the mornings I've stopped going on at her and getting increasingly wound up as it only winds her and the rest of us up to screaming pitch. At 7.30 I give her her uniform and tell her its her choice as to whether or not she gets ready, we will be leaving the house at 8.30 whether she's dressed or not. If she turns up to school in a nightie with birds nest hair or without her PE Kit she can explain why to her teachers and friends. So far its worked pretty well and funnily enough I've not yet had to take her to school in a nightie!

Struggles with maths?
Dyscalculia/ executive function problems/ anxiety can all be part of a picture of ASD or ADD/ADHD in girls (girls often don't have a visible H element and fly under the radar in schools and even at home as a result).

to you, buttcheeksaplenty

This strongly suggests pathological demand avoidance as others have suggested.

Any unwanted demands on the child are met with hostility, uncooperativeness, delaying tactics and blaming everyone and everything else.

I have ASD traits, and as PPs have said, it probably presents differently in girls. Also I have ADHD and it's not uncommon for people to have both or bits of both, so if ASD runs in your family I suppose ADHD/traits may be more common than in families where that's not the case. Then it becomes less easy to identify- for instance I was academic most of the time until I hit my mid teens, but I didn't sleep well and had no awareness of social rules despite being an extrovert.

As someone gets older, they're expected to do more and then the ADHD etc can become slightly more evident for the first time- for me it was at about 15 or something though, not that it was really picked up- I briefly went to CAMHS but got no diagnosis and they weren't supportive after a few times.

Re: diagnosis, I happened to see a private consultant for what I thought was something else, at about 40. It was he who suggested I had ADHD/ASD. It is affordable if you prioritize it- I'm not even earning, I paid for it out of my PIP.

Once you have a diagnosis privately, the NHS may take it on board and fast track you- I found they were ok in that they accepted it and said they'd fast track me; there was a bit of a pause for a while when the nurse who saw me went off sick and they forgot about giving me an appointment though lol. I had to remind them and then it moved quite fast to a consultant appointment. No follow up/meds through the NHS though lol. I didn't really get much from treatment when I tried it with the private consultant, but will give it another go.

Pick a consultant who's into ADHD or ASD, and you should be able to get a diagnosis. I know it shouldn't be that way, but they all have their pet thing.

I hope all gets straightened out either way. xxx

*CAMHS locally would never have thought of ASD/ADHD at the time- they weren't strong on it in the 90s etc in particular I imagine.

Why on earth are you threatening to tell her teacher that she won't go to bed? Even saying that to her will be a red rag to bull, because to her, yuo want to shame her into sleeping.

If this has only been like this since Christmas, have you tried asking her what happened, what's wrong that she cannot sleep/get ready for school etc?

ASD in girls is presented differently. Classic example is masking at school and letting it all out at home.

It’s more the unwillingness of actually doing it Have you offered to help her? Does she have sensory issues?

I was thinking the same thing. However, apparently in today's world there is no such thing as a simple pain in the arse when it comes to children!!!! ODFO

Have you talked to her about starting to fall behind in maths. Does she hear that you love her no matter how she does? Does she know that you will help her get better at maths? Have you sat with her and acknowledged her struggle and helped her? I would start there before moving on to the more complex possibilities

I don't know why everyone here wants to "diagnose" this kid. The only condition she has is a lack of respect, which she might be seeing at school or TV or think its cool or whatever.
She needs some discipline. Something that will actually kick her into gear, if shouting isn't doing it, try something else. There's plenty of ways.

Could it be something at school that is upsetting her? Maybe she wants to be late to avoid someone or something.

Maybe try in the morning dressing her but don't say anything to her so she isn't getting verbal attention. I was like this as a child but it was because of my anxiety disorder and bullying.

You sound so frustrated
I think no warnings straight to a punishment
Your poor daughter and you.

You need to just punish at the point of not listening and move on rapidly

If she wants you to wake her up earlier wake her up earlier and explain you want her to get dressed if you wake her up earlier

You could smack her hand straight away when she's naughty if the step doesn't work / room .. not sure if it's legal but I have seen this on behaviour forums as a technique when all else fails

Praise her for all the good bits and move on from the bad