Nap training - it's breaking my heart... does it work?

[themothership]

Hello
I've started nap training my 12 week old dd today after an awful week of sitting with her in a dark room for hours and hours trying to get her to sleep and basically not having any life. She's not bad at night - just really struggles with her daytime naps, and is very alert and finds it hard to switch off.
She's on a 3 hour EASY routine, ala the Baby Whisperer. Today I've bee putting her down for her naps awake, rather than jiggling her to sleep which is what I've always had to do. She's cried and cried and I've popped up to see her every 5 minutes, but she's settled within 20 minutes. However, for every nap today she's woken after 40 minutes and then won't settle at all and has just been working herself into a screaming frenzy. I'm trying not to pick her up but it's horrible and I feel like I'm torturing her. I don't know if I can carry on but I know that she needs to learn to nap without me.
Please help - especially re the 40 minute nap thing. I just feel like I'm a cruel and awful mother.

Does she not fall asleep when you feed her?
If mine gets a bit over tired i just feed him to sleep! I know if it were that simple you wouldnt be posting and i dont mean to upset you with my opinion! Just if you get uptight so will she! Go for a walk, let her scream in the pram and ignore other peoples comments!!!!

not sure if that comment was for me mumtosomeone - but to answer it anyway - DS often tries or does fall to sleep when being fed but cannot be moved or even just put down once asleep without immediately waking up. (He lets me get as far as laying him down but the moment i try and remove my remaining "cradling arm" he wakes up and cannot be re-settled. I dont let him do it now unless im prepared to be sat in the chair for half an hour or so. This isnt usually practical when you have a 2 year old also demanding your attention! As far as bed time is concerned i make sure he has a really good feed and dont let him drop off. Then he has bath and I put him to bed so he cant possibly be hungry. Aside from that his weight gain has been phenomenal and i dont see how he can be that hungry all the time when his weight has jumped up 2 centils to the 98th in the last 6 weeks. He also sleeps (once he finally goes off at night) between 8 and 11 hours so i cant see that hunger can be an issue. He also settles himself if he wakes during this time. Thats why i just dont understand his inability to settle himself off to sleep in the first place - he obviously enjoys it once he's there! Have also discovered this week one method that doesnt work - crying whilst begging him to sleep. He stopped crying for a bit and looked at me a bit shocked but it definitely didnt persuade him to sleep!

Can I just ask - is it just a few of us that feels totally inadequate when taking trips out with kids? Everyone else looks so relaxed and chilled with their lo's - im always on a knife edge waiting for the worst to happen and feel totally disorganised. I dont feel i can stop in a shop for very long for fear of screaming sessions - i certainly dont feel up for stopping for a cup of tea or something!

I didnt mean feeding for hunger..I meant to get to sleep. I really feel for you. I wish you lived near me and you could come and have a cup of tea! I dont mind hearing a baby cry and those who do..its there problem..I always think they must be wissoned up old spinsters!!!!
I realise I have been lucky and my comments are probably useless! If its any concelation my 10 month doesnt sleep through yet (so I dont have it totally easy!!) Put a video on for your 2 year old near bedtime and then you can sit with baby as long as needed. Also try bathing then feeding?

I can understand the thing with crying... it's not the other people, it's me.

I am about the most unembarressable person going and now my son is older and has tantrums in public, I don't bat an eyelid. But if I hear him crying (ie. genuienely upset) my guts just start twisting.

My neighbour has a younger boy and we can sometimes hear him and if I think it's my boy, the guts start until I realise it's next door and then I instantly relax... I'm not sure what it is (probably just over anxious first-time parent)

But it doesn't seem to stop even now he's older (19 mths)

TMS and Vickitiredmum, I totally empathise and understand what you are going through. I am really having problems getting DD who is 7 weeks to settle by herself, despite having done all the "right" things from the start after a horrendous experience with DD1 who was rocked for 4 months. She still does not and will not and now is crying after having been asleep for 20mins after a good feed . I really do not know what to do either .

To add to Mears advice, I do find that sleeping on tummy has helped although it does not help her settle in the first place, just to stay asleep and not be woken by startling herself awake.

It is desperately emotionally draining and it does seem like there is no light at the end of the tunnel, but THERE IS ! My DD! is great now, no idea how we got there, but we did and by 6 months she was sleeping through the night but by 5 months was doing 10-6/7 am .

I also like you am feeling like I have done something wrong or not doing something I should do and feel crap when I let her cry, but I know that I need to get used to it as I am determined not to rock her to sleep .

Keep your strength up and spirits up too . Are there any other friends or Mums near you who have had the same experiences ? ALientate yourself from the Mums of "angel" babies !

Well he's just fallen asleep on my lap during his feed. Im really hungry but darent move - have had a nightmare morning with my two year old who now has a cold. Bad combination with asthma. Had to go doctors with her anyway this morning for her eczma. Hate going out with both of them at the moment. DS did one of his worst explosive nappies whilst there - no baby change facilities there - had to deal with it in middle of waiting room floor. He fell asleep in pram with only 5 minutes crying in the chemist. But DD woke him up after 40 mins by having a huge tantrum because she didnt want to get in car seat - she wanted McDonalds. If its not one its the other! Going to attempt to move him off of my lap now.........

ok - how long did that last - he woke up 5 minutes ago just minutes after putting him down! Still at least he's not crying and is playing in his gym! Cant complain about that i suppose!

how's things? Tried the tummy?

Wow, Vickitiredmum, I sooo know what you;re going through. Haven't been able to post all weekend because dd has decided that she wants to be fed to sleep (going through growth spurt) but then won't let me put her down. So I spent all weekend in our darkened bedroom, not being able to spend time with dh and dh not being able to take over and give me a break because dd wanted feeding... Am worried though that I've set up a pattern now though. I think the growth spurt is over but have been feeding dd to sleep for the last couple of days too and now it seems as if she is expecting it. Am really exhausted because she;s been waking more in the night - keep on trying to tell myself that she'll settle and grow out of it, but it's hard to stay positive and am losing faith since a lot of people told me she's settle by 3 months, which she is now.

Oh poor you must be exhausted . I wish that I could have more words of wisdom for you but all i can say is well done so far and that you have all my sympathy . I hope that your DH is being really supportive. Can you use a dummy at all so DH can hold her if that is the only way she will settle. Will at least give you a break ? I am still trying to get DD2 to settle herself too so am with you in what you are trying to acheive.

Thanks for your message Lovinit. She already takes a dummy but at the moment is not taking it until she's had a quick feed. I guess she must be thirsty with the hot weather, so it's fair enough, but I'm worried about instilling a habit in her that she'll now only settle with a feed - creating a very large rod for my own back I think. She's also increasingly refusing to sleep anywhere but in my arms, but only if I stay in the darkened room and don't make any noise. Which means I can't do anything!

Dh and I have decided that we're going to have to hire a cleaner, which we can barely afford but at the moment I can barely find time to brush my teeth in the morning and perhaps put a load of laundry on. It's ridiculous having to that if I'm home full-time but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Dh is great and very supportive but works hard and I barely see him as it is - don't want to spend all weekend with him cleaning (not that I currently get to see him then either, since I am in solitary confinement with dd!).

I read a post on another thread from someone's dh who had taken a week off work to do PU/PD with their baby - apparently it worked. Am considering doing this and getting dh to take some time off so we can really give it a proper go, but dd is only 13 weeks and BW doesn't recommend PU/PD for babies under 4 months. However, she says to use Ssh Pat for up to 3 months. What do you do for the 4 weeks in between?

TMS, I do also agree wth Tipez, but I think that a lot of it depends on what YOU also want to acheive. I am unfortunately not the type of mother who is able to go with the flow and let my LO dictate what she wants and allow her to sleep in my arms or be rocked to sleep. That is why we are having problems , because we are hoping to teacfh them to settle themselves. I do know that with DD! it did get better , as she was a real pain to settle, but it does seem like an eternity away, which is why I am still so frantic over DD2 who is doing the same thing. Mistakes I made with DD2 I want to avoid.

I have started another thread titled How to Settle 7 week Old ..success stories ...

If your DH takes some time off I think that it would be really useful. I sometimes resent feeling like a single mother as my DH is hardly at home to deal with the other side of parenthood and so cannot understand how emotionally consuming it can be when you are tired and stressed.

I think that mums have to be careful af avoiding things that work because they may be habit breaking. My babies always fed at the breast till they fell asleep and then I put them down. If they woke again I sat with them in my arms or on my chest under my chin. Do did DH. In the evenings often sat watching the telly like that. It did not turn into a habit. As they grew older their habits changed and they could settle on their own. Always breastfed to sleep before bedtime after bath until they stopped breastfeeding. They wwere all good sleepers bar one - DS3 who was 8 months before he slept through the night. The other 3 ranged between 9 and 16 weeks. They are all individuals.

I think that you should never shut yourself away in a quiet darkened room with a young baby - they can sleep through anything wheras you will get increasingly tired and depressed.

My sister had 4 poor sleepers and she learned after number 1 that she spent too much time trying to avoid feeding and cuddling to get baby to sleep. She did whatever she had to do for sanity.

I hope you all find solutions to work but be aware that yound babies only conform to sleep routines if that is what they are naturally going to do. Sleep traing is not possible under 6 months (at least)IMO.

I kind of agree with you there mears. I think i have been worrying far too much about habit forming, and sometimes, some habits are okay if both mum and baby are happy/sane. And from previous experience they can be fairly easy to break if baby is generally happy and settled i think. I should have remembered this before now. However, having decided to take the path of least resistance for my own sanity i have become much more relaxed and less stressed (although it did take a nasty incident on Tuesday with my 2 year old DD trying to "feed" my 4 month old DS some playdough whilst i was out the room for just half a minute - he was choking and gagging and I had to put in action some baby first aid i had done after having DD 2 years ago - cant recommend it enough folks). My other half came home immediately after i rang him in tears confessing my failures as a mother. He has been brilliant and supportive since then. He hadnt realised how stressed i was as he only gets snippets of what i was going through at weekends which were slightly easier because he would take DD off my hands then anyway. Since then - by pure chance yesterday morning when i decided i would feed him to sleep after i had at least had a shower - i put him in the safety of his cot in bright light with cot mobile to keep him amused and away from DD and went off to have a shower. He fussed for 4 minutes and when he went quiet i peered round to find he had gone to sleep. After that he went to sleep easily in the car, just sat on my lap (unintentional - he was naked and nappiless so not ideal!), and in his pram. Night time sleep he fussed for an hour on and off as usual, but again today I have just put him in his cot (when he starts making his moaning nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn noises) - curtains open cot mobile on (but tucked half into his grobag) and after 4/5 minutes he has gone to sleep for about 30 - 60 minutes. A day and a half so far - will wait to see how long it lasts - perhaps he is frightened that his sister might forcefeed him playdough again if he doesnt do as he should! Have also been tiring him out physically as well though getting him to push up on his legs, getting him in his walker (he may seem young at 4 months but he is 18lbs already and sits up well in it), rolling him back and forth on his playmat and getting him to lay on his front etc. Not sure what is working at the moment but he has just hit 16 weeks and had another growth spurt last week. We'll see.............

Also, my HV has always maintained that babies do not form habits and associations before 12 weeks..... doesnt help you now TMS but i agree with you on the "everything settles after 12 weeks" thing. It certainly hasnt done for me - i think people get confused with colic which is supposed to disappear after 3 months. Hopefully we can meet up soon and put the world to rights on this gross misinformation.................

Wow, Vickitiredmum, really glad that you've had an easier time (well, once the choking incident was over - how scary for you). Fingers crossed that this marks a more settled stage for ds. Am going to try out your tips of trying to tire dd out more physically and see if that helps make her easier to settle. She's very small for her age, but quite strong so we'll see...

The last few days have been really tough, and this heat definitely isn't helping. Today I got 3 x 40 minute naps and one very grouchy baby who started screaming every time I put her down.

Mears - I wish that she did just fall asleep anywhere, but she hasn't done ever since she was a really little baby. As I've said before, she's very alert (people always comment on it, and she doesn't seem typical at all in this sense) and literally can't stop looking at things even when she's absolutely exhausted. I'll trying holding her against me and tucking her head in under my chin to block out stimulation, but she'll literally yank her head out and start staring at things, quickly followed by crying because she can't block it out... The only thing that works is the dark room and the white noise - I've done everything I can to get her to sleep elsewhere. If anyone can suggest something for an overtired baby who can't stop frantically staring at things, then I'd be eternally grateful.

sorry if someone mentioned this already but have you tried using one of those shade-a-babe things in the pushchair,like a travelling darkened room?
Does she fall asleep in the car at all?

Ooh not tried a shade-a-babe thing, but at the moment she's not happy in the pram when out so I've been taking her out in a sling.

Nope, doesn't fall asleep in the car :-(

Sometimes I used it on my son and it was bit like putting a cover over a parrots cage, he went out like a light! I've seen people with blankets too but that seems a bit hot in this weather. No other suggestions sorry cos my son only slept 2 or 3 x 30 mins at that age. But did start going for a couple of hours at 6 months.

tms - what happens at night with you DD? Does she sleep well/go down well then? You might have mentioned before but there's so much on this thread.....?

She's not that bad at night, after we finally get her to settle (can take upto 2 hours). We do a dreamfeed at 10:30pm, and she'll wake between 3:30 - 4am for a feed. However after that she can be pretty poor at settling, and will sleep really noisily and lightly. She'll finally insist on getting up between 6 - 7am but it tends to be earlier rather than later these days :-(

In fear and trepidation of accusations of cruelty can I make another suggestion then to try?

I have had success in the past with gouchy babies (sisters and friends and occasionally mine) of placing a muslin lightly over the baby's face when lying in the pram. This accompanied by pushing and pulling pram back and forth made screaming babies calm down and fall asleep. I think the muslin encourages them to shut their eyes and the movement of the pram rocks them to sleep. No danger of suffocation as mulin (single layer) is breathable.

Runs and hides............

Mears, my other half has done that to my DS with some success but i cant bring myself to do it. My DS does seem to like something touching his face esp his nose and mouth (must be similar to the comfort of BF?) TMS i wish i could help you more. I at least have the comfort of knowing that my LO, once asleep (took 2 hours tonight too) will go through until at least 6.30am - no feeds from his last one at 6.30pm tonight. Maybe - and this is just another peice of advice i have heard somewhere along the line - that babies sleep better during the day if they have a good sleep at night? Does anyone else know about this particular theory?