Nap training - it's breaking my heart... does it work?

[themothership]

Hello
I've started nap training my 12 week old dd today after an awful week of sitting with her in a dark room for hours and hours trying to get her to sleep and basically not having any life. She's not bad at night - just really struggles with her daytime naps, and is very alert and finds it hard to switch off.
She's on a 3 hour EASY routine, ala the Baby Whisperer. Today I've bee putting her down for her naps awake, rather than jiggling her to sleep which is what I've always had to do. She's cried and cried and I've popped up to see her every 5 minutes, but she's settled within 20 minutes. However, for every nap today she's woken after 40 minutes and then won't settle at all and has just been working herself into a screaming frenzy. I'm trying not to pick her up but it's horrible and I feel like I'm torturing her. I don't know if I can carry on but I know that she needs to learn to nap without me.
Please help - especially re the 40 minute nap thing. I just feel like I'm a cruel and awful mother.

Marslady - that's really useful. I've always wondered whether dd being so small might have something to do with it, so it's good to hear your experience.

Rickshaw - I worked out that I had emails from mumsnet switched off in my preferences, so I haven't received your email. Then I tried to send you a message, and got a message saying that you'd blocked emails in your preferences! I've now changed my profile, so you could try me again...

I have just tried again, so fingers crossed..

Thank god tms! Have registered today because I have EXACTLY the same problem as you. Have tried Gina Ford and baby whisperer. Neither worked. My DS is 15 weeks and he was born 8lb 12oz and is now 17.5lb so i dont know if weight is an issue. He sleeps well at night once he finally settles - can take up to 3 hours some nights but then he will sleep a good 8-11 hours mostly. Occasionally wakes up for night feeds. I feed on demand - sometimes 3 hours, sometimes 2. I dont know what to do either but i will say that when he is awake and happy and not tired - then I do the washing up etc. I have a 2 year old and find that waiting for him to go sleep I will never get anything done. He gets most of my attention when I am trying to get him to sleep. Have spent 2 hours today doing controlled crying (whatever that actually means) and gave up totally and cuddled him to sleep. Glad im not alone here. What I would say to Gina Ford fans etc is that routine doesnt necessarily sticking to timetables it just means being consistent. My first DD was not like this and she didnt have any routine at all - she did whatever she wanted and i never had a problem. Which is probably why i am so confused this time round. Maybe tms we could share screamers together too with rickshaw - i also live in north london.

I just also wanted to say, have tried, swaddling, rocking, cuddling, dummys, babyswings etc. When he's tired he just cries and cries and eventually becomes totally overtired. He has been like this since birth and only once in his entire life has he been put down to sleep and actually not cried or fussed. He doesnt know how to get himself to sleep. Even in the pram or car he cries because he's tired. When he's finally had some sleep he's the happiest smiliest baby around. I dont have the luxury of cuddling him all day long to get him to nap because of my two year old. Today i have a slight break because she's at nursery.

rickshaw - where's that thread old thread you mentioned - please could you remind me - have lost it in the sea of comments in this one.

It's been a while but I had this same thing with my DS. At 3mths he started being really ratty in the afternoon and I used to take him out for a walk to get him to sleep, but with chronic fatigue this wasn't a feasible option for me.

In the end (4 mths) I did what you're doing, a rough EASY routine (tho I did feeding before nap) I found feeding him then putting him down for a nap before he completely nodded off (not always successfully) worked a treat, there was a couple of days of crying and transition and then he did 45 min naps which after say 2 weeks changed to 90 mins, most of the time.

He is now 19 mths old and always sleeps and naps well and I am so glad I did this sleep training. He is quite happy to sleep with or without feeding (I varied the routine slightly so as not to get to strong an association between milk and sleep) and I get to have a nap too .

I would say that all babies are different but DS definitely fell into the category of benefiting from routine and we are all happier for it!

Good luck, Mia

Vicki - it's a thread called "overtiredness or am I missing something?" in the sleep topic section. Send me your e-mail address if you'd like to arrange a screaming baby meet-up (just tried to send you mine but you need to change your preferences to accept mail).

Hi Vkone - what did you do when your ds started crying - did you comfort him / pick him up etc or just leave him and go in at regular intervals? After yesterday I can't and won't leave dd to cry. But I don't know if there's a baby-friendly way of teaching her to sleep independently.

Hello Vickitiredmum. Wow poor you, I can't imagine how I'd cope having dd and another child to look after too... all respect to you, and hope your dd is also not too affected by your ds getting overtired etc. It would be great to meet up, although I'm always scared of the logistics when going out, as the thought of being out of the house with dd for too long when she might be due a nap fills me with dread. But I know I ought to bite the bullet - it's not doing me any good sitting here on my own, and I feel very sorry for my dh who is usually the first grown up I talk to when he comes home from work in the evening. I am sure he is wondering where his wife went and who the crazy lady in her place is!

Rickshaw, I've still not received your email. I think the mumsnet team check the messages before they forward them on, so that might be why it's taking a while.

I agree, it's best to just do what is easiest for you and the baby. She's too young to 'learn to sleep independently'. All her survival instincts drive her to be with you all the time, including at night. That's how she's programmed. I wouldn't even think about 'sleep training' until at least 6 months (preferably later). Don't worry about people who say you are making a rod for your own back etc. etc. etc. - she won't be crying 10 times a night when she's 6, honest...

Hiya,

What worked with my DD (who was exactly like your lo) was Baby Whisperer's shh-pat. I swaddled her tightly, held her in my arms and shh-patted her. The little fighter that she is, she still screamed for about 10 minutes and then fell asleep - after that I put her in her basket, and shh-patted some more. It was really hard initially, but I kept thinking that it is better for her to cry for 10 minutes in my arms (and not feel abandoned) than being grumpy and crying all day. Gradually, she learnt to fall asleep without me holding her (still screaming for a while) and now she sleeps unswaddled in her cot - usually it takes her about 10 minutes of 'complaining' - (not screaming) and then she falls asleep on her own. We now have problems with daytime naps since she sleeps unswaddled (wakes up after the first sleep cycle and it is a real pain in the neck to settle her again), but slowly we are fighting to get her to sleep again. It is a very slow and painful process (we started when DD was 7 weeks) but it is worth the effort

I hate this 'training' idea!! As you will have seen on other threads!! some babies need more sleep than others some need less!!! Why upset you and baby? what is the point?

mothership. Why cant you leave the house? so what if she cries! she might drop off eventually! try not to stress! she is only 12 weeks

Hi mothership
This si going back abit (amazing how you forget) I think I did the patting shshing thing but never tried the pick up put down as that seemed abit odd to me. I would also stay by the side of the cot with my hand resting on his shoulder and sing softly until he calmed down and showed his sleep cues (he's well into hair twiddling), then after the odd droopy eyelid I'd scarper.

I think the reason I found the Babywhisperer thing helpful was that DS showed exactly the cues that she lists in the book (I used to spot the same with lots of other babies too) so I'm not sure if you could call it sleep training so much as parent training! DS is my first child and the 1st I've had any experience with so learning to read his body language was harder and less intuitive than I imagined. I guess sometimes certain books or theories just click with you and BW did with me.

Sorry about the ramble, I hope you find a rountine that suits your LO soon.

Mia

Oh BTW can I just say I totally understand about the going out thing, even now I won't risk upsetting DSs nap more than once a week - it can sometimes feel so lame when people ask you for coffee and such and you have to say no, he's having his nap then.

I think I must be awful. I am afraid I wake them up if I need to go out!
If I can stay in I will,but I believe if they are tired they will sleep!!!

mumtosomeone - I'm not sure that all lo's do sleep when tired! Mine certainly doesn't - she screams instead. Plus she wakes up before she is ready and cries because she can't go back to sleep. I wondered if she just needs loads less sleep than other babes and was crying because she wanted to get up & play but I'm sure this isn't the case. She sobs if I just get her up after a very short nap (and will quickly wind up screaming through overtiredness) and she's the happiest baby in the world if I can get her to sleep for longer. So the problem is that she's tired and needs the sleep but can't seem to get herself to sleep. Sounds like the mothership is having the same problem. Please don't blame us for trying routines - sometimes it feels like the only thing left to try. I wish I had a baby who nodded off to sleep when tired and slept for as long as she needed, and then I'd certainly throw away any kind of routine.
Mothership - how are you getting along today? Keep posting and don't despair. Are you getting support from your DH?

Hi there - Mumtosomeone, completely agree with Rickshaw. If it was as easy as my dd just falling asleep when she was tired, I really wouldn't be posting here! As for going out, she won't sleep in pram or sling, I've tried everything. If anything, she gets even more stimulated and wired because she can't switch herself off. I've been out of the house with her for over 2 hours, with her screaming for the entire duration. If seeing your baby that upset isn't traumatic enough, the comments that I've had from other people certainly don't help - like Rickshaw and Tipex, who've had the same problem I've ended up sobbing while walking along with my screaming dd. At the end of the day, she's completely miserable if she doesn't get enough sleep, but at the moment it means that I can't risk taking her out if she's tired and due a nap. And because she only seems to manage being awake from upto an 1hr 30mins on a good day (including feed, nappy change etc) it doesn't give me many options...

Vkone & Yanka - I tried ssh / pat a while ago, and found that I'd just end up doing it for an hour or more and end up with a really dry mouth! Haven't tried it for a few weeks, so maybe it's time to give it another go. Agree re: BW and sleep cues, I've found them really useful, and the other thing about EASY is that I know when to anticipate that dd might be beginning to get tired.

Today has actually been okay compared to what it was like earlier this week and we've managed to get her down for her naps so far although she is still waking after 40 minutes and then fighting more sleep, even though she's still tired. Been waking more in the night though, and has also decided to move the start of the day to 6am from 7am, so I am shattered! I think she might be going through a growth spurt - she's feeding more generally, both at night and during the day - does one typically happen around 12 weeks? Dh is being lovely, and has been taking over settling dd today. I think I freaked him out earlier this week by crying when he left for work in the mornings and generally saying some quite scary things about how I was feeling - really thought I'd tipped over into PND earlier this week, but am feeling a bit more stable now.

What about cranial osteopathy?

Been seeing a craniosacral osteopath since dd was 10 days old - really helped sort out her colic, so I'd definitely recommend it to others - lord knows what dd would be like now if she hadn't had any! The osteopath is away on holiday at the moment, so she hasn't had a session for a few weeks though.

I have been thinking about babies who don't sleep in a pram and am wondering whether anyone uses Silver Cross type prams any more or are all babies in buggies? Will probably be best to start new thread on that but i have a theory that babies do not sleep so well in buggies. Prams have a bit of bounce to them that rocks a baby to sleep where buggies don't.

themothership - an option to try during the day is to put her on her stomach to sleep. Now I know thae advice is to sleep on their backs but my sis had such a problem with her last dd sleeping, the HV suggested it for during the day when she could be observed. The fact that she was breastfed and not overheated made risk of cotdeath minute. My first 2 babies slept on their stomachs night and day (as did sis's) but then ofcourse guidance changed. She found this made a huge difference. I also took babes out walks in the pram on their stomachs and they were good sleepers. Just a thought.

Hello Mears, we've got a carrycot that we also use as a moses basket, but will go on the pram chassis, so it's the same thing that she's supposed to have all her naps in but she won't sleep in it if I take her out in it. We can also use it as a car bed, so we don't currently have a car seat, but she won't sleep in the car either. We have it next to the bed at night, and she'll sleep in there until she wakes up for a feed, and then she'll usually stay in night with me.

I swaddle her for all her naps, so could I still put her down on her front?

I had the carrycot and DS would fall asleep in it overnight but not out and about (screamed) and not during the day and he'd never sleep in a sling but would in my arms walking up and down (which wasn't feasible for any length of time). I remember the first 2 growth spurts really throwing me as well (12 and 16 weeks I think).

Now you mention it I do remember the patting shsing thing taking awhile to do at first both during the day and at bedtime, he'd go through phases of being fine and then need lots of settling again. I would be at it for maybe 30 mins (sometimes singing so that I could hear myself think with the crying), but DS is now a fantastic sleeper (almost olympic class)

I think there are just some babies/children/people that need peace and quiet to sleep and are hyper sensitive when tired. I'm sure it runs in families cos me, my brother and cousins need lots of high quality sleep or we range from very tetchy to monstrous (i'll have to ask DH where I come on this scale ).

But it does get better, believe me. I went from being the mum who's baby never stopped crying to other mothers being gobsmacked at how DS sleeps!

Off to bed now to get my x hours sleep (fingers crossed)

Hi themothership - if you are going to try her on her tummy them I would leave her hands out either side of her head. You could swaddle her body. You might find she likes her hands free.

Hello Mothership, rickshaw - will change profile in a bit. Thought I had a break through last night - put DS down to sleep after not really bothering to try getting him to nap in any particular routine except when he really cried and cried. Found that gently holding his legs (sounds cruel but i initially did it because i though his legs felt cold) settled him immediately (I dont swaddle him usually - tried it when he was younger and he fought it and hated it). Had friends round in the evening and when i put him to bed after telling them how dreadful he was at going to sleep he went to sleep with only 2 minutes of half hearted crying - just to make me look like a liar! No repeat pattern tonight unfortunately - has taken another hour of backing and forthing up the stairs to settle him. Have you thought about the wind/bright light when taking your DD out in the pram - my DS hates the wind - even as much as breathing near his face he hates.