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Misguided Illusion Part II - Baby still not sleeping through by six months? Come and join us!

1000 replies

MomOrMum · 29/10/2009 15:00

Thought I would start a fresh thread as, sadly, we have almost filled the first one.

Feral, Kiwi, Chulita, et al...shouldn't we have graduated from this thread by now?!

Now welcoming a new crop of 6 months+ babies determined to help us reach new heights/depths of sleep deprivation.

Here is the original thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/713951-Support-thread-for-those-who-were-under-the-misguided-illusion

OP posts:
IsItMeOr · 28/11/2009 20:58

Thanks Chulita - nothing to report yet, as DS went straight to sleep after his supper feed. Now hoping against hope that this is the night he decides to just sleep fine by himself...

That beddy bear thing is perplexing. But it sounds as if you don't mind it too much at the mo?

IsItMeOr · 28/11/2009 22:55

Okay, update - DS woke at around 9.15 and finally went back to sleep an hour and a half later (we think!). DH did the reassurance visits, bless him. I stayed downstairs obsessively knitting (think I may have knitted DS's little jacket a bit long...).

Let's see what the rest of the night brings.

IsItMeOr · 29/11/2009 07:40

2nd part of the update on last night (sorry ladies, hope you don't mind bearing with me!).

Well he did go to sleep after the 90 minute marathon, then stayed asleep for almost 5 hours. So I then fed him and he went back to sleep again. He woke again a couple of hours later, and went back to sleep after 15mins without ever making crying noises.

Not sure what tonight will bring, as we suspect after 90mins he could just have been exhausted for the rest of the night.

But I was very relieved to be greeted with smiles when we woke him at 7am today (we've never done that before either, but apparently you're not supposed to let them catch up on missed sleep...).

We're not going to use CC for the naps today as we've been invited out for lunch. But will be doing it from tomorrow.

Weird thing is that last night wasn't actually what I would regard as a bad night any more. I know you will understand!

Chulita · 29/11/2009 10:05

When we resorted to CC we never bothered with it for naps, just at night. She's not the greatest napper at the moment but it's all phases isn't it?!

Well done on the 5 hour stretch, and well done for persevering for 90 mins. that you can knit!

priyag · 29/11/2009 11:46

I think that controlled crying should be approached with caution, Another mumsnetter I know who was having a dreadful time with her eight month baby waking and feeding at 10pm, then twice again in the night, paid a large amount of money to a sleep consultant who advised sleep training which involved controlled crying and not feeding in the night. It was a total disaster with her baby becoming even more unsettled and crying hysterically for nearly two hours when she tried to settle him without feeds. In desperation she turned to another sleep consultant, who advised a totally different approach. Sleep consultant number two said that babies of six months or more can only realistically sleep through the night, if all their nutritional needs are being met during the day. She was advised that any form of sleep training should not be contemplated until the feeding was sorted out. The following advice is what she received and which worked really well for her baby, and for several other parents we know. I have contacted her and asked her to post on this thread, but she is really bogged down with work right now, so posted below is a summary of the advice she was given.

Summary from sleep consultant two

"Taking into consideration your baby's weight and the amount of solids he is having, I suspect that most of his night wakings are due to genuine hunger and that you can not realistically expect him to sleep for twelve hours until solids are more established.
On saying this, his feeding three times in the night is probably affecting his appetite for solids during the day, hence the reason he is so fussy about taking solids. When this happens a vicious circle arises of baby needing to feed in the night, because he is not getting enough solids during the day.

Sleep training for this type of problem should never ever be contemplated as your baby is genuinely hungry. What I would suggest is that you gradually reduce the amount of milk that your baby is drinking in the night, which will in turn encourage him to eat more solids during the day.

The first thing I would suggest is to drop the 10pm feed. Because he is waking at 2am and 5am, it is pointless to continue with this feed as it is not helping him sleep a long spell in the night. Consequently it will be most likely that he will wake around midnight and 2am. It is important that when he wakes at this time that you offer him a really good feed and do not restrict the length of time that he is on the breast. A substantial feed should hopefully last him to between 5am and 6am.

As your baby is being fussy about solids I recommend that you work on establishing solids at lunch and tea first. I would advise not giving solids at breakfast until your baby is taking between 5-6 tablespoonfuls of solids at lunch and tea.

If your baby is not having breakfast you may have to bring lunchtime as far forward as 10.30am if he is showing signs of being hungry before 12 noon.. With a baby who is being fussy about lunchtime solids this is preferable to giving solids at breakfast. As your baby is still feeding twice in the night, I would suggest that you offer the solids first at lunchtime, followed by a breastfeed prior to his lunchtime nap. As he is still taking two milk feeds in the night, you do not need to worry at this stage that his daily milk intake is dropping too low. The aim of this plan is to increase your baby's daytime solids, without leaving him to cry with hunger in the night. You will find that once your baby increases the solids he is eating during the day that he should automatically need to breastfeed less during the night.

Once your baby has been happily taking 5-6 tablespoons of solids at lunchtime and teatime for several days, you can start to introduce small amounts of protein into your baby's food. When your baby is willingly having 5-6 cubes of protein-based meals at lunchtime, then you can introduce breakfast. I would suggest that you start off with a small amount of yoghurt and fruit, then progress onto breakfast cereal and fruit.

The important thing to remember, when introducing breakfast, is that you should not increase it so much that it takes away the appetite for lunch. Also it will really help if your baby has finished all of his milk and solids by 8am. Remember that the aim of solids is to establish your baby on a feeding pattern of three meals a day with bigger gaps between meals. If you give milk at 7/7.30am and then delay breakfast until 8/8.30am it could affect your baby's appetite for lunch.

Once breakfast is introduced I would count any feeds between 4am and 6am as his breakfast milk and reduce the amount of milk that he has at 7am, to encourage him to take his solids well. This is obviously difficult to work out as you are breast-feeding, but at this stage offering solids first, then a breast-feed,should ensure that your baby eats a decent amount of solids.

Once your baby has increased the amount of solids that he is taking during the day, he should automatically start to sleep a longer spell at night, where you will find him waking somewhere between 3/4am, instead of 2am and 5am. I would continue with giving him a big enough feed at this time, until he sleeps regularly to 7am for at least a week. Once he is doing this you can gradually decrease the length of time his is on the breast by a couple of minutes every few nights. Once you reach a stage of him taking a breastfeed of only a few minutes in the night and sleeping until 7am, then you can look at dropping this feed, confident in the knowledge that the waking is not due to genuine hunger.

I would suggest that dropping this feed would be easier if you can ask your husband to go to the baby when he wakes and settle him with a small drink of cool boiled water and a cuddle. It may take several nights of your husband having to pick him up and resettle him several times. Follow the same procedure until your son shows signs of settling back to sleep quicker in the night. Once this happens your husband should progress to settling your son back to sleep without taking him out of his cot. Although it may take a week or two, by being persistent and consistent you should get your son sleeping through without resorting to leaving him to cry for lengthy periods.

As you decrease the time on the breast in the night, it is important to remember to allow your son more to drink during the day. What you are aiming for now is a full breastfeed at 7am, followed by solids, then lunchtime solids at around 11/12 noon, followed by a breast feed. At this stage he will need a further breastfeed at around 2.30pm, followed by solids and a small breastfeed at 5pm, then a full breastfeed at bedtime. Once your baby is well established on three solid meals a day and four to five good breastfeeds, you can feel confident that any wakings in the night are not due to hunger.
I would also suggest that you look carefully about the types of foods that you give your baby. Getting the right balance of protein, carbohydrates, vegetables and fruit also play an important role in establishing healthy sleep habits.

Finally, it is important to keep an eye on how much sleep your baby has during the day. Although all babies are different and some will need more than others, I would recommend that you aim for a nap of no more than 30/40 minutes in the morning and two hours after lunch, if you want your son to sleep well at night. If he sleeps less than two hours at lunchtime, then he may need a short catnap between 4pm and 5pm to avoid overtiredness."

The above advice really did work for her, so if you are struggling with several wakings in the night, and do not want to resort to controlled crying it may be worth trying.

IsItMeOr · 29/11/2009 18:42

Thanks priyag - your post has reassured me that we really have tried everything before resorting to controlled crying. Ferber's book is very clear that babies can be generally hungry at night beyond 6 months and that in his view, it would be inhumane to expect a baby to go cold turkey. We've therefore already been stretching gaps between feeds with other methods than CC. And it is also possible to do CC while still feeding at night (which is what we're doing).

Hopefully your advice will be helpful to somebody else. Mine would be, if you are really thinking of trying controlled crying buy Ferber's book and read it, so you're actually doing what he recommends rather than what somebody else thinks he recommends. I have been stunned by the variety of approaches and views which bear no relation to his advice - I was very anti-Ferber before this and DH bought the book!

I would also say that many of the sleep books I've read would advise strongly against letting your older baby sleep after about 4/4.30, so not sure where that bit of advice your friend was given is coming from...

dycey · 29/11/2009 19:07

Hi all

Well done Isitme - I have been thinking about taking action for so many months, I am very impressed you are managing it.

Ds seems a bit better and has eaten three meals today so maybe will sleep more tonight.

Current problem is the naps. He wants to be up for HOURS before he will consider a nap (with a fair amount of miserable crying). I cannot wind him down or get him off to sleep before his long window. And so he is napping late morning and late afternoon which results in a later bed (8pm onwards). O well. can't seem to fight this one. Def not a GF baby in any respect!

Will be interested to hear Isitme, how your nights go. What are you hoping to achieve tonight?

GOOD LUCK ALL

Lizum · 29/11/2009 20:05

Not sure how much longer I can do this. DS (1 yo) is still waking in the nights for feeds and I'm working full time. Need sleep...

He goes down at 7-8, falling asleep on the breast. Wakes at 10-11 and fed to sleep again. Sometimes settles back in own cot, sometimes not so we co-sleep. Wakes again 2 or 3 hours later. If he's not in our bed then, I try putting him back in his cot but we usually co-sleep. The he wakes again and again, and again, and again, in shorter periods as the night goes on. He used to settle OK after a little suck but the past few nights he wakes immediately and starts crying, almost screaming and won't feed. I can't work out what is wrong and need to sleep. He was awake for almost two hours, feeding or thrashing around crying. I can't have another night like last night. Even he was exhausted and we went back to bed a hour after he got up for 3 hours! It's Monday tomorrow though so I have to go to work and DH will be looking after him (he's a SAHD, I'm breadwinner).

Starting to think extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping and full time work don't mix! We probably won't change anything though, as we don't fancy cc and enjoy co-sleeping most of the time - when actual sleeping is involved! Think I just need a hug really and a reassurance that it's just some phase he's going through.

IsItMeOr · 29/11/2009 20:26

Lizum that sounds rough. Have a hug and a . Fingers crossed for you that it is just a phase.

dycey · 29/11/2009 20:43

Poor you Lizum - I reckon something must be up (ill or teeth?) if normally he is more settled. I always think it is behavoural when things go wrong sleepwise but am always reassured by a change when the tooth comes through or the cold goes or...... Altho sometimes I have had to do a bit of sitting with crying baby til he settles.

Good luck to you (I know how you feel and also feel am not going to change anything - but then I wonder about it ALL the time).

It's all just a phase - babies grow up FAST!

Lizum · 29/11/2009 21:06

Thanks for the support.

DH has said that DS has been a little subdued this week. I'm also having terrible PMT at the moment. I wonder if it gets passed through the milk .

Chulita · 30/11/2009 08:26

isitme, I heard the same thing about sleeping after 4pm. DD goes to bed for the night at 5pm so there's no way I could squeeze a nap in after about 3pm!

IsItMeOr · 30/11/2009 09:33

Okay, so last night we had 25mins of crying/visiting before DS fell asleep (he woke up about half an hour after his bedtime feed). Then just two feeds, but awake for the day from 5.30am.

Decided to try CC for naps today. Kept him up until we saw a nice big yawn. DH took him upstairs, tucked him in, said reassuring words and then left. Two minutes of crying later...nothing. Has now been quiet for about 10mins, so assume he is asleep .

Will be back to report again later. DS hasn't been eating solids or milk very heartily yesterday or today, which I suspect may be as a result of him being a bit shocked by the whole thing?

Found his third little tooth poking through this morning (after he nipped me twice while feeding - thanks!), confirming that was the problem last week.

dycey · 30/11/2009 09:45

Glad there was a reason, isitme. Always reassuring. Think we have teeth on the way too. Though I am feeling very glum today as DS is better (cheery self again and full of beans) but woke for 3 hourly feeds last night. We have been at 4 hourly for months - I can't bear going backwards so much. Think it is soon time to do something - but what about the teeth?

Isitme are you doing the toughlove even if teething? There is never a right time, I am afraid.

DS needs to nap 4 hourly but will only relax with a feed or a pushchair walk - I too may have to do CC for naps. Oh god, I feel so tired by all this. I had no idea having a baby would be so emotionally draining.

I have to go out tomorrow night for a dinner at 9pm but DS has been waking at 11pm for ages - it feels awkward to go for two hours and have to leave because my nearly ten month child still needs to feed at 11pm..... OOOOOO

IsItMeOr · 30/11/2009 10:07

dycey we delayed starting Op Tough Love because of the teething, but yesterday he looked very rosy cheeked at one point but then happy enough for the rest of the day, so we just dosed him up with Calpol and teething powder at bedtime (whether he needed it or not ) and then went for it. I couldn't have done it if he'd been obviously teethy at bedtime though.

D'oh! He's woken up from nap after just half an hour, so we're leaving him as we'd normally try to get him to go for another sleep cycle. He's not crying, but a bit whingey...

Lizum · 30/11/2009 10:48

DS woke at last night and did his crying thing then. He was inconsolable. Tried teething gel and calpol. He wolfed down the Calpol so we gave him a rice cake. Munch munch munch. He ate it all, had a few sips of water, asked for milk and settled down for the evening in our bed. Only woke a couple of times. So perhaps a midnight snack is the answer???

Rycie · 30/11/2009 12:29

hi isitme - how is it going with the CC? I (like many others on this thread I'm sure) am watching with great interest as I have been thinking that if things don't improve a bit by the new year then I may need to explore this option, so really keen to see how it goes for you. Please keep us updated. Also, how often are you going in to settle your ds?

Thanks for all that info priyag, its so useful being able to benefit from everyone's experience. Unfortunately my dd dropped all night feeds at about 5 months, so hunger is not a factor in night waking for us.

My sympathies lizum - I am also back at work and it is really tough being so sleep deprived, especially as everyone expects you to have a sleeping child by now (dd is 13 mnths) so there is little sympathy - I know how desperate one can feel. I must say I find this thread to be such a comfort, just knowing that you are not alone and that there is nothing severely wrong with you!!

priyag · 30/11/2009 22:23

Hi Rycie,

I think the sleep consultant's approach was that even if hunger was not the cause of a baby waking two or three times a night, they should be given at least one feed in the night. Apparantly, this was to avoid the baby waking and cying for lengthy periods in the middle of the night. Once the baby was waking and only feeding once in the night, the feed then was to be gradually reduced, and then replaced with water and a cuddle.
The method really did work for my colleague who had struggled with several wakings a night for months.

ginhag · 30/11/2009 23:02

I have no idea if this will actually make anyone feel better but I was Reading the beginning of this thread and could identify with what a lot of you are going thru...

Ds was bf til about 12mo, and we did what turned out to be blw but only cos it seemed natural for us (read about blw after we discovered ds happier feeding self...)

anyway,I realised early on that neither me nor ds were cut out for sleep training in any way (tho the entire world seemed to think I was mad.) am happy to give my reasons if anyone curious,but am in no way judging anyone who took a different path.

It has been tough,I have been tired,especially once back at work 3 days a week but eventually ds found his way and recently has started sleeping thru most nights. It's just wonderful and it for some reason makes me happy that he has sort of worked it out for himself...

However he is 22 mo. I know when he was 6mo someone saying it would be fine 14 months on was NOT what I wanted to hear!

Btw I put his poor sleeping down to the fact he's v bright-is an amzing talker,holds proper conversations,knows colours,numbers,can sing nursery rhymes blah blah blah. This makes me feel better about not having 'got it right' with his sleep

I think all I was trying to say is,if you are a mum who can't manage cc or any of the other training type methods,it will be a slower route (probably) but you willget there.

IsItMeOr · 01/12/2009 07:17

Morning!

ginhag that is such a heart-warming story, and I really wish it could have worked that way for us, but after 81/2months with the last 4 months of DS waking almost every hour at night DH and I were both broken.

Okay, so last night was night 3 of our attempts to let DS fall to sleep by himself.

Night 1 - woke nearly 2hours after his bedtime feed and took 90mins to go back to sleep. Woke around 5.15am and went back to sleep 15mins later without crying. Two night feeds and awake for the day at 6.40am.

Night 2 - woke about 30mins after his bedtime feed and took 25mins to go back to sleep. One night feed then awake for the day (and fed) at 5.35am.

Night 3 - woke around 2hours after his bedtime feed and took 11/2mins to go back to sleep. Rewoke 30mins later and took 12mins to go back to sleep. One night feed then awake for the day at 6.25am.

We only started trying this for daytime naps yesterday.

First nap - fell asleep within 2mins, slept for 30mins, didn't resettle when we left him for 30mins.

Second nap - fell asleep within 5mins, slept for 45mins, didn't resettle when we left him for 5mins.

Chulita · 01/12/2009 08:45

isitme that doesn't sound too bad at all, well done! When we started being a bit tougher DD took about 10 days to settle properly but now she's pretty good about sleeping through with maybe a little whinge but she usually resettles herself. She's not teething at the mo though so we'll see what happens later!

IsItMeOr · 01/12/2009 10:07

I thought it might help if I posted what we've been doing as a separate post.

We're using the progressive waiting that Ferber advocates. This is not the only way you can do this, but when we thought about how DS settles, we didn't think that gradual withdrawal, etc would fit with what we've been doing so far.

Essentially you wait for a pre-determined amount of time after the baby starts to cry before going in to reassure them. DH has done all of these visits so far. This is not supposed to involve picking them up or doing any of the things that have become sleep associations for your dc (rocking, shushing, patting, rubbing, etc).

In the reassurance visit you check that DC is okay, reassure them that everything is okay and that you're there, rearrange the bedcovers etc. The really important thing is that you leave while DC is still awake. Visits should be no more than 1-2 mins.

The gaps you use between visits can be as short as you like, so long as they increase progressively.

We used the following:

Day 1 waits of 2, 4, 8 then stick at 8 mins
Day 2 waits of 3, 5, 10 then stick at 10
Day 3 waits of 5, 10, 12 then stick at 12
Day 4 waits of 10, 12, 15 then stick at 15
Day 5 waits of 12, 15, 17 then stick at 17
Day 6 waits of 15, 17, 20 then stick at 20

Ferber suggests starting with what we did on Day 2. He also suggests that you can continue increasing until you reach a max gap of 30mins, but we didn't want to go beyond 20 (and obviously we haven't actually gone beyond 10mins yet because DS fell asleep).

For naps, you never try for more than 30mins - if DC hasn't gone to sleep by then you abandon the nap and try again when the next one is due.

The complication for us is that we are still doing night feeds. We have lots of records showing what time he has fed in the past, so we made a slightly generous assumption about when he might be hungry (i.e. 15mins earlier than he would have done before). So we have two times at night when, if he wakes before, we would use the progressive waiting until he fell asleep, and if he wakes after, we would feed him.

In our case, this works out at 11.15pm and 4am. As it happens, once he's gone to sleep by himself (always well before 11.15pm, btw), he hasn't woken for a feed until much later than we would previously have fed him.

Sorry for such a long post, but hope that is helpful.

I'll keep posting updates for a little while even if this "works" for us, but particularly in case this proves to be a false dawn.

dycey · 01/12/2009 16:25

Well done Isitme and thank you for sharing your technique. I always feel terrible that I am so terribly inconsistent.

Last night DS woke after 4 hours so I fed. Then one and a half hour later he woke again and it took an hour for him to go back to sleep (not all crying but lots of shouting). The room was 14 degrees - I realised after he went back to sleep, so perhaps the poor thing was cold? Probably. That is when you feel really awful - not feeding, not cuddling and they can't tell you what is wrong. Stupid Mummy forgot to turn the radiator on.

Oh well - he then slept til 5 - so we back to two night feeds. Hurrah.

Calpol and teething powder tonight as we HAVE to go out - oh dear - what happens if he wakes up?

dycey · 01/12/2009 16:29

And I like your story too Ginhag. Good for you. Wish I had the energy to see it through that long too. That is my natural parenting instict. I was in my parents' bed and bfed til I was two so it feels right to me - the best way. But I feel saintly for getting this far (9.5 months) and I am slowly working out the difference between me and my Mum. I am sadly winding down the bfeeding in anticipation of work and hopes that it may help with the nights. I am rambling here but I mean something by it!

Rycie · 02/12/2009 09:09

Hi priyag, thanks for that, that is really interesting. So if I understand it correctly you're suggesting that I reintroduce a feed? Hmm, may be worth a try. A worry for me with this would be that I would be I going backwards - won't she just get used to having a bottle in the middle of the night and then always expect one?

I'm glad it seems to be going well isitme - may I ask, how upset does you little one seem when he's crying? Is it enough to upset you? I suppose what I'm really asking is whether he is getting hysterical?

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