NEW Support thread for those non sleeping toddlers 18-24 months!!

[andyrobo237]

Just thought I would start a support thread -no hostility in here, jsut good old plain advice and friendly support for all us suffering with poor sleeping kiddies!

DS is 21 months and luckily I can get him to start the night in his cot, and he sleeps for 3-5 hours on his own, and then he wakes up asking for me, so for an easy life, and yes I like the snuggles, he comes in with us. He will then sleep until 7am when we get up. He eats ok and has one sort nap in the day (less than an hour), and has a run around after tea, and then we do the following (for we read I as DH is a waste of space!):

Between 6 - 6.30pm bath with big sister - lots of fun and splashing and have to prize him out

6.30 - 6.45 he is given his beaker of milk downstairs and he drinks what he likes

6.45 - 7pm he goes in his grobag on my knee and we read, he snuggles and has more of his milk - sometimes drinks it all, or leaves a bit

7pm - take him to his room - he happily goes. I put him in cot, kiss, and then sit in the chair in his room with low light, no speaking (I read a book) and within 10 mins he is asleep

7.10 or so - creep out, pull door to and go downstairs to DD who is 6

I used to have a bath around 9 to 9.30 but he would always wake after that, so I have a quick shower after their bath, so I dont disturb him!

He has been waking around 12am these past few days, previously it was 10.30 to 11 ish, so at least we have gained an hour of peace! He wakes up stands up in cot and shouts for me, which if you ignore becomes a cry and sobbing, which fortunately doesnt wake his sister usually. I then bring him into our bed and he settles until 6.30 to 7am, when we get up.

He is not tired when we get up and we get up the same time every day even weekends as DD has early morning activities. I just cant get him to stay in his own bed longer. Have tried the early evening routime again (without the milk) and he does appear to go back to sleep, but when I move he springs up!!!

THis is not as bas as what some people have to cope with, but it is not what we want, I needmy sleep and prefer to have half a kingsize bed not the corner!

We will support eachother and get these toddlers to sleep better!!!

I have a really judgmental friend coming to stay on 13th December, and I would like it 'sorted' before then.

I have tried sitting with her while she goes to sleep, but I have found that it just makes her crosser as I am sitting there but not doing what she wants me to do, which is pick her up and take her out the room.

How did you find it when you first started? I was wondering whether to take the bars off her cot and convert it to the bed version, maybe make it different, and make a big deal about it. But I'm just not sure whether she's too little for it. They tell me she sleeps really well in a bed in nursery.

Then again, she had her nap in her cot yesterday for my mum, no problems at all.

People keep saying, 'it's just you'.

Er, thanks.

PJ - I personally wouldnt recommend putting them in a bed at home in the dark when they are so little and not sleeping well, as I feel it would not help the cause. Plus she is then able to get out when she likes and come to your room, and try to get in your bed. As well, your DD is so little (not young, but petite) that it may be too soon, and you will also have the added worry of her falling out of bed in her sleep. Does she wriggle in her cot when she does sleep there? I will not be putting DS in a bed until he is at least 2!

People are kind of right (in a non-judgemental non-harsh way) that it is you causing the problem!! Well it is not quite as simple as that - saying that you are causing it yourself, but I kind of know what they mean. She is getting to that age where she is learning 'cause' and 'effect' - in that she crys, screams, sobs uncontrollably, which breaks your heart to hear it, so you end up picking them up for a cuddle. Which takes you back to square one - they are ruling what you do.

What did you do last night? Did she sleep in her cot at all?

If she is associating the cot with mean nasty mummy who puts me there and leaves me for ages on my own, then it will be difficult to break that association. We have never had that problem, sorry so cant offer any words of comfort or advice! But I do think that you have to persist with the getting her to go to sleep in her cot in her room at a sensible bed time. With your friend coming in Mid-Dec - you have around 23 days to solve this problem.

That is a good chunk of time, and I think you need to break it down into stages - what you would like to achieve - like:

1. starts the night in her cot, get a few hours sleep, wakes up and then comes in your bed for the rest of the night;

1. as above, but when wakes, then try to get her back to sleep in her cot, doing the same routine you did to get her to sleep earlier on;

1. Then get her to sleep longer and longer between wakings.

What you achieved the other night was great, and a major step forward, so maybe you and your DH need to formulate a plan tonight that will see you through the weekend - and stick to it, and accept that you may get little sleep yourselves - short term pain - long term gain!

We are all in this together and we know you can do it - as you are a fab Mum and your DD obviously wants to spend all her time with you, which is not practical! Just be firm and strong and you will get there, honest!!!

We had another successful night last night - DS went to bed on his own at 7pm, slept until 10pm (woken by telephone - blardly BIL - but was forgiven as he had some info to pass on), but was settled within 5 mins - unheard of!! He then slept until 4.50am! Hope to aceive the same tonight!!!

Oooh that was long - sorry!!!

Andyrobo237 - I may print that off!! I completely agree. It's become a bit farcical now (although successful in that we haven't had to go downstairs in the middle of the night), as we are kind of using her cot as a place to bribe her into stopping crying, i.e. if you stop crying you can come and get back in with mummy and daddy. We knew it was stupid, and we were actually saying that to each other as we did it.

Aw, I know, she is only tiny. I would be worried she would start prowling around in the middle of the night!

Thanks for the advice from you all. It's so nice just to have someone to tell everything to! Last night my little one went down at 7.20 (but didn't get to sleep for a good half hour as she has a nasty cough). Then woke at 11.30; went into her four times and she settled till three. Had eight oz milk (but I let her cry in her cot while I came down and warmed it up - minor victory!)then went down again till dh woke her up going to work at 6.15.
I have tried giving water / juice in the night. Sometimes she isn't at all interested, but even when she has a sip it doesn't settle her back to sleep whereas the milk will.
Andyrobo - you sound like you have cracked it! Wish I could be hopeful for a full night's sleep by Christmas; I don't even have a plan of action so I have no hope!
x

berrysmum - if she is waking in the night just for a drink have you thought about leaving a bottle of water and a bottle of milk in her cot so when she wakes up for it she can get it herself drink it and maybe settle herself back off to sleep?

Don't want to sound negative; and will def give it a go but in all honestly I doubt it would work. It's my fault I know but I have let her get dependent on a nice warm bottle fed on mummy's knee and she is actually really lazy with it - she makes no attempt at all to even hold the bottle; it's very similar to feeding a tiny baby! I know I have to break the habit but don't know how without controlled crying.

Come on Berrysmum, dont be negative - may be you could just try reducing the quantity of milk you give her, so if she usually has 8oz give her 7, and so on, reducing it every other night. I did this a while ago with DS to drop his 10pm feed (I can just about remember that now) and I ended up giving him 3oz water and 3oz milk, and the nexct night refused to give him, so the dependency was reduced. Now he can ask for milk but gets a firm no and goes back to sleep! He does still have some on waking, which can be 4.30 am onwards, but he does go back to sleep.

You have to be firm and consistent, so that she gets the message that you are boss!!

I am waiting to see when DS wakes up tonight, he is getting better - had two good nights, but will see what tonight brings!

berrysmum - surely it is worth a try? if it doesn't work you can go into her and give it but if it does work bonus.

Daily Update - last night - woke at 12.30am, I settled him in 10 minutesm and he woke at 5.30am, had milk with us and slept with us until 7am - so still on track!!

I will give it a go, will start tonight by reducing to 8oz instead of 9. Do I keep on reducing by 1oz a night? At what stage do I start watering it down? She is a stubborn little madam, and I can't help thinking she will notice and refuse it altogether!!!Not being negative though (honestly!) I can't help thinking it will be easier when she understands more and can talk. She is quite late at talking in comparison to how her big sister was at this age. One of my biggest frustrations is that she just cries like a little baby when she wakes rather than calling for "mummum" or "milky" like dd1 would have. If I just say 'no' she will cry all night; and that is what I am trying to avoid.
I probably should have mentioned that between last Dec and June I didn't night feed at all; but was up a zillion times a night and she would scream like a banshee for two to three hrs at a time. I eventually asked my health visitor for advice in June, just before she turned one, and she told me to try feeding her in the night again. The rest of the story you know; and in comparison to the first half of 2008 July onwards has been much better. However my HV didn't tell me how to wean her off the night feed again........maybe I will still be giving her a bottle in the night when she is five....?!?
Am appreciating all your help and advice with this x

berrysmum - i would reduce it slightly every two or three nights by reducing the quantity by half to an ounce. If she protests about the bottle being empty then keep at that quantity for a few days, and then start reducing it. I I remember, it took us about a fortnight to drop the feed - it seemed less painful that way! When he was on half water and half milk, he wasnt fussed and stopped waking up so much, or if he did wake would be easily settled.

Last night was interesting - as I suspected we would have a rough night somewhere down the line, and he woke at 12 and I had to take an hour to settle him. I crept out o his room twice, and once got into bed before the cries started again! Once he settled he slept until 5.30 again. I was tempted to put him in m bed, but it would have undone the last 3 nights work! At least I got a couple of chapters of my book read!

He is out like a light now, so heres hoping!

You are doing really well andyrobo, sounds like your lo is making progress. I think it helps to have a plan and to try to stick to it. I will keep at the milk reduction as you've suggested. Although failed miserably last night as I warmed it for too long (being half asleep!) so had to add an oz of cold to cool it down!
How do I know when to dilute the milk with water?
Last night was a bit of a disaster all round as she has been full of cold and still quite bunged up and am guessing teething too as constantly dribbling; but she flatly refused to take any medicine either before bed or in the night. Did I mention that she is rather stubborn....?
So 1am onwards I was pretty much awake every hour, even when she'd had her milk. Looking forward to my bed tonight - let's just hope madam stays asleep a bit longer!

Berrysmum - I'm currently trying the milk watering down route. I haven't reduced the quantity of liquid offered, but am gradually watering it down - so start with 7 parts milk, 1 part water, then after a few days switch to 6 parts milk, 2 parts water. That way I can convince myself ds won't notice any difference. We're now down to 2 parts milk, 6 part water, and he can't be bothered to drink much of it, but does have a quick suck as comfort. He still wakes a couple of times a night, but at least we're down from 3x250ml a night! Baby steps....

Well, last night I gave her 8oz instead of 9 and she drained the bottle. That was at 3am but was awake again at 5 and screamed to get up at 6! I can't decide what to do - water down or give less? Wish my No Cry Sleep book would hurry up and arrive - want to see if it says anything about night feeding!

when she had drained the bottle did she go off or scream for more? if she went off to sleep i would be inclined to continue with the giving less route.

straight off. And same last night so will def stick to it. Pity she doesn't always settle as well as she does after her warm milk!

i might try reducing it down to 7 oz tonight.

nappyaddict - I have reduced to seven but last night she really screamed when all the milk had gone. Do I stick with it or start watering down?

berrysmum - did she go down to sleep without anymore milk or did you have to give her a bit more?

i would go with the watering down at this stage. you mught have to take it very slowly as well.

have you tried changing the teat on the bottle to the smallest one available for newborns?

i am currently doing watering down and smallest teat with 14mo and we are slowly getting better sleep at night. it does not help that yet another tooth is on the way this week.

I had this with my DD. At 20-21 months we were in the same position. I was so stressed from lack of sleep I actually gave up my job as I was too exhausted. Finally I could tackle the nights previously we had tried the NCSS too with no success. I had also tried gradual withdrawal from her room but again no success.

It finally came down to we were going to have to leave her to it. My DH and I agreed on our strategy and implemented a very regimented bedtime routine. Bath, bottle, 2 stories and then bed. We also agreed on saying exactly the same 'script' to her before we left the room. But that is what we did. We also explained to her what we were going to do beforehand. Then we left the room shutting the door behind us. It felt awful but I stayed upstairs and at times reassured her through the door but at no time did I go back in. We had a week of hell, it gets worse before it gets better and there were times I lay sobbing on my bed but and this is the biggest BUT it worked and we have never looked back.

She is now 2 and a half and she never wakes in the night but if she did she knows how to get herself back off. Last night she slept until 8.30. WOW!!! I now have a new and better job and feel so refreshed and so much less stressed. You have to keep your end goal in your head because it will be hard work but it will be so worth it. Let us know how you get on!

A very weird thing happened: she slept through for three nights in a row! 7.30pm to 5am and then I fed her and she went back down again till 7.
Thought I had cracked it (even though I hadn't done anything differently!). However last two nights have been back to square one - last night awake from 1am till I gave in and fed her at 3.
What was that all about then?!!!

I think you are on the way to cracking it. A friend of mine used the wake to sleep method to try and crack her dd's sleeping problems. After 3 nights she went back to normal so my friend gave up on that method. A week or so later she decided to give it another go. Again after the 3rd night she went back to normal but my friend carried on and by the 8th night she was sleeping through and it carried on for good then unless she was ill or something.

Don't feel like am cracking it just feel tired! Last night total nightmare again, ended up feeding her at 12.30 and again at 4.30!!! She was just screaming and wouldn't stop. I will happily give the method you recommend a go but will it work with her feeding in the night? And also, I would struggle to give you a regular time she wakes up - no two nights are the same at the minute. Am I a hopeless case?!