Baby already self settles but is still going through the 4 month sleep regression - what should I do?

[Bumblingonby]

Title says it all, really. Our 17 week old has been fully self settling for 2 months- we put her down, she sucks her hand for a bit and pops off to sleep with no props or associations. Lucky us.

Recently the dreaded 35 minute naps and waking hourly post 2 am have begun, and I'm at a loss for what to do. Naps I've given up on trying to extend as she wakes fully and immediately rolls over into tummy time and then screams as she can't get out of it, after a single sleep cycle.

Night time- she can sometimes get herself back to sleep after a lot of crying (way more than when we first put her to bed as I think the sleep pressure isn't there any more closer to dawn) and if she gets hysterical I resort to feeding her. I'm worried about reverse cycling if I feed her more than 2 times a night but the alternative would be to walk around with her which I worry would wake her completely.

Should I be doing this? Picking her up if she gets hysterical but its not feed time, going for a wander and hoping she'll forget her distress so when I put her back down again she'll see it as a new bedtime and try to put herself to sleep again?

All the guides/advice say that if your LO has the regression the only cure is to teach them to self settle, but nothing addresses what to do if they can self settle, but simply don't want to!

Thanks in advance for any tips

She’s absolutely tiny. She needs the comfort of you. Feed her to sleep as needed. I don’t know what reverse cycling is (I’ve had three kids who all eventually slept through the night), but she’s really too young for sleep training. Sometimes the self-settling parents think is the result of the latest parenting guru’s advice is simply luck/individual differences. Do whatever works so she (and you) get back to sleep as needed and forget about self settling, which in my experience is appropriate for much older babies/toddlers.

She’s literally a tiny, tiny infant. Sleep associations are meaningless at this stage, sleep isn’t linear. Comfort your baby, feed her if she needs fed - they don’t even know they’re a separate person to you yet.

Honestly just don't overthink it. People tie themselves in knots over newborn sleep. It goes up and down good and bad sleep- unless they were shit from day one like both of mine ha- just do what you have to do and just survive the tiredness. Cuddle your baby, feed them if they're hungry, they'll be whinging 3 year olds before you know it!

Also, could be the beginning of teething already.

God! Why are you leaving your four month old to cry? Just horrible. Can't believe what I've just read. You seem to think it's totally normal and okay. It is not.

And yes, obviously pick up and comfort your tiny infant. Don't listen to bullshit guidance written by idiots with no understanding of human attachment. I feel really sorry for your baby.

And you 'resort' to feeding her? Of course feed her! Your post has really upset me. Where are you reading this horrible 1950s guidance?

This self-settling stuff is often trotted out to justify leaving tiny babies to cry. Stop it.

Wow well that's just made me burst into tears when I'm already incredibly sleep deprived. The thought that I might have been doing something harmful to her is agonising to me, i hope I haven't.

I noticed that she was settling herself to sleep with her thumb when tired on her playmat weeks ago, so as she got older and wasnt feeding all the time and therefore sometimes getting tired between feeds, I experimented with putting her in her crib when she showed tired signs and found that she settled herself to sleep very quickly after a few seconds of half hearted cries/ grizzles which she still does consistently (often she doesnt cry at all). I always find that if she sees and hears me after being put down she cries, but if I leave her to it for a minute she drops off to sleep easily. I honestly wouldn't know how to get her to sleep any other way as I never have! Is that wrong?

Also I don't leave her to cry in any serious sense during the new disrupted sleep cycles what I'm talking about between sleep cycles, is crying in her sleep. She literally doesnt wake up, she wails in her sleep for a minute or two and then goes back to a deeper sleep, and friends and family have advised not to rouse her then precisely to see if she goes back to sleep-which she often does. I think I may have given the wrong impression- by 'gets hysterical' I mean, she wakes up fully. That's when I'm not sure if I should feed her or not, which it sounds like I should if she's up for it.

I don't want to be some draconian sleep training mother, I just don't do well on broken sleep myself and am exhausted and trying to make sure I get as much sleep as I can so I can be a good parent. As such I don't want to foster habits that could be a problem in the future. Of course I know that a) my baby doesn't owe me sleep and b) I should have known that parenting comes with sleep deprivation- I did know that- but you cant know how youll cope with it until you do it.

I love her more than anything. I'm just trying to do the best I can by her and me.

I mean I resort to feeding her not because I don't like feeding her but because I don't think she's actually hungry, she sometimes doesn't want much if any and she gets plenty during the day. I meant it in a 'because I'm not sure what else to do' sense.

And, all over the internet, baby books etc! Everything I've read says that while you cant really sleep train before 6 months you should try to foster good sleep habits at 3-4 months if you are able such as sleeping in the crib after being put down fully awake, not always feeding to sleep etc. I've been able to do these fairly easily and she (seems to be!) A happy thriving baby while awake. I would never leave her to cry it out in the sense of real crying.

I am very open to being told I'm wrong- I'm constantly worried about doing parenting wrong and doing whats best for her which I hope makes me a conscientious parent. But I must say I find the conflicting advice really stressful and this thread isn't helping!

Okay, well yes you did sound like you were leaving her to cry a lot by saying you only picked her up when she gets hysterical. Like you say maybe you used the wrong word and that's not what's happening. I'm sorry for upsetting you, but four months old is really too young to set up bad habits etc. She is likely teething, unsettled, who knows, and needs picking up and comforting. I'm sorry that my comment upset you but the thought of you leaving a four month old to cry was shocking to me.

A lot of the advice on the internet (the disgusting What to Expect website for example) is set up to be very anti-baby attachment and pro-parent getting back to work for a US audience. Some of the baby books like Your Baby Week by Week are completely outdated. A lot of websites are pro sleep training at a crazy early age but that doesn't mean they are right. People will look back on this in the future and be shocked that it was considered normal by some.

Do some reading on attachment theory. And follow your instincts which probably aren't telling you to leave your baby to cry.

Op try not to get overwhelmed by all the different books/articles/websites/"experts" out there. The only expert on your baby is you. Listen to your gut feeling on everything and you can't go far wrong.
I understand the difference between a little wail in the sleep and actual wake up crying- I think you've just been misunderstood a little there. No one's fault. Don't worry about feeding at night. They need feeding at night. If she's hungry- feed her. Bollocks to certain times and stuff like that. I couldn't even tell you what times I feed my 10 month old at I just feed him when he's hungry.
But then I'm prob too far the other way no routine co sleeping etc etc

It is very normal to feed multiple times per night at this age and for much longer still. It is likely that your daughter is being affected by the sleep architecture changes which affect babies around 4 months old.

If she is upset at night I would feed her back to sleep and not make it any more distressing and difficult by trying to do otherwise. The only rough rule of thumb I did use at this age was I was reluctant to feed if it had been less than 2 hours since the last feed and found she actually settled fine with just rocking at those times instead. But my daughter was waking at least every 2 hours through the night from 4 to 7 months old and the vast majority of these wakes I fed back to sleep, so she was easily feeding 5 times per night. It is often the easiest way to get everyone back to sleep asap.

Everyone on Mumsnet seems to cosleep and feed on demand and think themselves lucky if their child sleeps through aged 7! Teaching to self settle won't do any harm at all.

While my baby was in the regression I focused on helping her do naps well so she wouldn't get overtired and struggle with night sleep. That meant resettling her in her naps if needed. She's through it now and self settles well again

To be fair I worded it badly as I'm tired and frustrated and was being flippant. It's more like she cries out in her sleep and I wait in exhausted desperation to see if she does it a few times and then goes into a deeper sleep or whether she wakes up and cries in a sustained way (which she doesn't do when we put her to bed in the first place) in which case of course I pick her up. My question was more of a "what to do then?" If she last had a big feed only an hour and a half before as I don't want her (if possible) to start getting into a cycle of taking in more at night than the day which I've heard can happen. But it sounds like I should just go with the (milk) flow...

Yes feeding if more than 2 hours since last feed is what I've been trying to do too. Tbf it is still only 2-3 times a night at this stage, my question is more about if the wakes get more frequent and pronounced with the regression and sounds like I should try rocking then feeding if that's not enough, thanks.

God forbid not wanting to feed a baby all night long who clearly doesn’t need it.

I wouldn’t be undoing the progress she’s made with self settling and continue as you are with only picking her up as a last resort and it should hopefully pass soon.

You’re doing great.

Haha thank you, that's made me feel better. Tbf we haven't really taught her anything she just loves sucking her thumb and has always been pretty chill about being in the crib which is handy! I'd love to cosleep but can't as for health reasons our bed is elevated at the head which would make it unsafe, and likewise for health reasons I can't babywear a lot so we do really need her to be able to settle in the crib.

I'm not fussed about feeding to sleep per se and do anyway in the middle of the night, but think it might feel weird for her in the day to always settle in my arms and then find herself awake in the crib, so I always put her down when she's tired but awake. She complains very mildly for a minute or two then drops off. I honestly wouldn't know how else to settle her myself as she's only ever fallen asleep on the breast or completely by her own volition. If I didn't put her in the crib she'd put herself to bed on the playmat (and sometimes does!). The noisiness between sleep cycles is what's new so my question is really about how to navigate that.

The regression may well pass in a few weeks. Ours didn't, so after nearly 3 months, we sleep trained her at age 6.5 months. Hopefully yours will just pass, it doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong and there have been some horrible answers to your post which are quite shocking to read. Please don't be hard on yourself.

@teaandkittehs some of us find leaving tiny babies to cry who can't advocate for themselves shocking to read.

And some of us find that they don't actually get left to cry, they in fact self settle in minutes and sleep well from there on like mine did. She cried for a total of 7 minutes on night 1, and was visited and comforted (and immediately stopped crying) 4 times in that period, and then slept for 7 hours. The next night, she cried 3 minutes and slept 9 hours. After that, she just went to sleep and slept all night. It was somewhat better for her to sleep for 11 hours than waking every 25 minutes which she did during the regression, we feel, although obviously you think waking every 25 minutes and being exhausted all day as a result is better for babies. I think there is this archaic belief in some quarters that sleep training means ignoring your baby until they just give up, which is just silly - barely anyone does that. Back off. No one is forcing you to sleep train 😴 😒

You sound like a really lovely mother who's just trying to navigate a way through the astonishingly difficult adjustment to caring for a new baby. Well
done for the breastfeeding as well .
There's no denying it's tough.
Any chance you could get a sleep for yourself at dome point during the day?
My husband often ( work schedule allowing) used to takes my DD out in the pram or sling for as long he coukd in the morning so i can sleep.
my mum also used yo take her out to give me a break . i know not possible for everyone. but maybe if possible build that in?
It does get better eventually but thrres no denying its tough

Op you've just confirmed that 'sleep training' is a load of b. Your baby can go to sleep naturally without you, without you having done anything to make it happen, and yet still doesn't sleep through. So clearly being able to self settle isn't what stops a baby from waking you up at night.

The best advice I would give after having done the baby years already would be disregard any book that guarantees to make your baby sleep and try to just roll with it. It goes up and down a lot for quite a while I'm afraid. It's probably the learning to roll right now. Next it will be teeth and crawling. Later on you've got adapting to a duvet, bad dreams and potty training to disturb sleep. I've not hot there yet but I've heard you can be kept all night worrying about teenagers!

The only books I've found good are Sarah Ockwell-Smith and Lyndsey Hookway (but her's are incredibly in depth and intense). Good luck! It will get easier.