6 month baby girl.. trying to get her to sleep 7-7 with controlled crying

[SimonTheDad]

So.. here is the story.. we have a 6 month girl who has never really slept well. Here routine until this week:

wake 8-9am
feed
nap on/off untili 11am
feed
various feeds/45 min naps throughout the day awake 2hrs nap 45
right up until 10:30 then feed and sleep
various waking in the night

she has only slep through twice and typically wakes 3-4 times often just for a dummy replacement.

This week we started her on a more structured routine. We tried EASY and are essentially following it. Although she hates the PU/PD. The PU particularly drives her crazy with crying so there is no PD. So we have adapted it to controlled crying but with the EASY sched.

Day 5.. usual bed at 6:15 and crying on/off until currently 8:10 probably until 9 and a breast feed. She has learnt to roll over in her cot (progress for her motor skills) but i think that is mainly as she knows we come to arrange her when she gets all out of shape. She hates having the light off so we have some dim lighting in there. Ermm.. what else.. she is trying to sleep but just cannot.. we are entering her room every 10 minutes and giving light petting and replacing a dummy.

Any advice welcome.. its haaaaaardddd!!!

Oh.. she seems her usual happy self in the day.. but cannot sleep beyond 45 mins in the day so guess what.. its more controllded crying EASY PEASY during the day too... phewwww

sorry just read further down you have tried that method.

have you looked into the no cry sleep solution or the gradual withdrawal method?

"Have you thought about using the baby whisperer method"

thats what we are using.. adapted slighty as PU/PD makes her cry more not less (the PU does not calm her at all so there is never a PD).. so we are not doing the picking up bit.. we do comfort in her room but she often pushes us away.. at that point we leave her to calm down alone.. as our presence drives her more crazy we feel.. if she wants our presence, i.e. grabs our hands pulls us to her, that kind of thing.. we stay with her for 30mins - 1 hr.. how ever long.

So i guess its not really CC but something more tailored to our baby. That is the nice thing about the Whisperer books, they put a heavy emphasis on reading YOUR baby and understanding her.. we are trying

At worst my dd would be up for an hour and sleep for an hour alternatively throughout the night (at 3mo). Our aim at that stage was to get her to sleep 12 to 5am - I'd read somewhere that this was really good and was what constituted 'sleeping through' for young babies. By adjusting our expectations down from a 12 hour block to something more realistic, we didn't get so uptight when she woke (and then i guess because we were more relaxed, longer periods of sleep followed........).

we keep freaking out with her rolling onto her stomach too.. we have a camera so we can watch all this stuff.. how dangerous is it for a baby to roll onto her stomach?

as long as they know how to roll back it's fine.

Simon, you poor chap, it sounds like you?ve got books and advice coming out of your ears and all you want is for you all to get a good nights sleep! It?s very hard to know what to do for the best, but I do think (as many have echoed here) that the answer for your baby will be what?s best for baby not a particular approach gleaned from someone else (either from this thread or from a book). I?ll tell you why I think this and then you can make up your own mind?. A friend baby whispered her baby (put her down sleepy but awake followed the EASY routine etc) and was sure the routine was the answer to sleep- at 4 months she slept from 7 till 7 with a dream feed at 11. I didn?t (didn?t have the book or any other) and we rocked/cuddled our baby to sleep, fed him when he wanted and gently tried to get him to sleep without rocking when he seemed like he could cope with it. There was a phase when he was sleeping 8-10 hours (hurrah!) but it was slightly inconveniently 7- 3ish! I didn?t wake him for a dream feed as my rational was that well that was when he wanted to sleep so.... He managed to get the hang of things and by 5/6 months he was sleeping 7-7 ish without any rocking to sleep from us- just popped him in his cot. We were extremely lucky and I count my blessings on this front. But at the same time my friends baby started waking in the night and no amount of anything would get the sleep back again and this carried on for about 5 months. So the moral: a) rocking/cuddling to sleep wasn?t a permanent bad habit that couldn?t be broken just what was needed at the time b) kids do what they want anyway- the baby whispered baby obviously hadn?t read the bit of the book about not waking up again!
It may make you want to punch me but all I can say is try and relax?. If you?re all relaxed and in tune with what little one wants then she?ll be chilled out and happy and more likely to be content to sleep on her own. Easier said than done as we all know sleep deprivation makes you very un-relaxed!

simon, sorry if I repeat what anyone says ...
I am no expert but I have had two children.
Your babies sleep pattern is from 8.30pm to 8am and she wakes for a feed at 10pm and at 4am ...
That sounds perfectly normal to me.
If she were my baby I would do what the others suggest and do the bath routine and bedtime thing from 6.30 pm rather than put her to bed.

I did CC with my DS at a young age and I have regretted it for 8 years
He needed me. I needed sleep. I didn't get it
At the age of 8 he is only just getting over his terror of the dark and sleeps till 8am in the morning ...
By the time my DD was born I had thrown out all the books and listened to her and her needs, not mine. She didn't sleep through until 9 months - for the last 3 months of that I was up 4 times a night replugging the dummy but she learned to find it by 9 months and she (now nearly 4) sleeps 12 hours a night and has never been afraid of the dark/had night terrors etc etc ...
I never forced a routine on her but instead gently guided her towards a regular bedtime etc (always doing the same thing every night, tea/bath/feed/quiet time)
She is by far my easiest child and is way more confident than her brother.
I hope that helps ...
Listen to your baby and enjoy her ...

I don't know if that makes sense ... my sad faces seem in the wrong places.
sorry.
Basically, I feel desperately sad and guilty over my obsession about sleep and routing with my son. I didn't enjoy him as a baby as I was obsessed with how little sleep he seemed to have and how tired I was. He needed me and I didn't listen to him .
He is a good sleeper now but it has taken 8 years ... I truly believe that if I had let him find his own pattern as a baby he would have enjoyed sleeping at a much younger age ...

ghosty, you shouldn't blame yourself for your son's fear of the dark/bad sleeping. no 2 kids are the same. chances are you could have done the same with him as your second child and he would've turned out the same.

some kids are scared of the dark. i still am a bit and i was cuddled to sleep

"Your babies sleep pattern is from 8.30pm to 8am and she wakes for a feed at 10pm and at 4am ..."

This is with the CC and EASY schedule.. before that she woke much more.. we are gonna try wake to sleep in the day too.. thank god there is so much information around and we do not have to resort to rum in the night feeds.

Simon, what happens if you cuddle her till she's sleepy and then shh and pat while she's in bed? We did this at 7/8 months, and firstly did it till she was deeply asleep, then a bit less and less until we could leave her, say goodnight and walk out.

Was lovely until it all went out of the window for some unknown reason just before Christmas... have had to restart a bit, but this is what happens - they change, and it takes a while to catch up and work out a new plan.

I've just skim read this thread but one post of yours stuck out Simon:

"it might be practical for some people to stay at home every night,, hold the baby to sleep for hours at a time,, oh yeah so no tv, lights, music,, no noises or life when then takes place,, same in the day unless u work,, get up 5 times every night unless u work next day"

It's not practical for anyone to live like that. But when you have a baby you have to forget practicality/convenience/freedom. Your baby has needs. They have to be met. So you have to hold her so she can sleep, and maybe that means you have to put the TV off. Maybe your nights are disturbed. Tough luck! You're a parent now, that's part of the job!

I am speaking as someone who has a 6 month old baby who has been totally unable to sleep unaided since he was 2.5 weeks old. I have been on this board multiple times in tears begging for help (search for posts by ChubbyScotsBurd to get an idea). We've been tested hugely. But he's a difficult, poor-sleeping baby. And as his parents it's our job to meet his needs. He's not old enough to 'play' us, he just cries for comfort. That's fine by me, it's rough but it's what he needs so he gets it. And it is getting better with time. I can see it happening, without any training or otherwise. He's just getting better by himself.

I know, really, I know from experience how utterly exhausting a sleepless baby can be, both emotionally and physically. But part of the baby deal is that Life Is Different - you can't have a baby then carry on like you did before. You have to change stuff, and sometimes as grownups we don't like that bit, and we try to instil routines and rules and structure into these tiny little lives. If your baby is happy with that then good for you - but if your baby doesn't go with that flow then you just have to go with theirs. It's only a few months. It will get easier. You won't need to sit by her bed until she nods off when she's fifteen. You probably won't even have to do that when she's fifteen months. She'll get easier.

Just relax, go with the flow, and all will be well with time. I guarantee it.

Simon- Just skimmed this thread. Its certainly attracted a lot of opinions!
I used the dreaded GF contented baby routine- not to the absolute letter of course. Just used it as a guide because I had severe post natal depression and needed some structure. Luckily dd was mega chilled out baby and it worked perfectly for her. There is a lot of support and advice on GF website. Its aimed at breast feeding babies too which you might find helpful.
Another thing to try is cranial osteopathy. My dh is an osteopath and he's seen many a 'bad' sleeper change magically into 7-7 sleepers after a few sessions.
All the best to you and I hope that you find the right way of doing things for your family.

It's not practical for anyone to live like that. But when you have a baby you have to forget practicality/convenience/freedom. Your baby has needs. They have to be met. So you have to hold her so she can sleep, and maybe that means you have to put the TV off. Maybe your nights are disturbed. Tough luck! You're a parent now, that's part of the job!

LOL.. nice.. so yeah.. i'll go to work tired get fired then we live on state benefits, my wife leaves me, we argue cause we are so tired.. yada yada.. but the BABY MUST NOT CRY.. repeat.. THE BABY MUST NOT CRY.. come on.. be real people please.. balance in all things.

TBH i do not watch TV as i cannot stand it.. but reinforcing a practice whereby the baby learns to only fall asleep in my arms is.. er.. not practical nor beneficial to anyone that has a life of any sort.

well said simon. some people would rather make their lives miserable then try anything other than exactly what the baby wants (or needs as they see it). the funny thing is that people are talking about what makes baby happy, well i can't think of anything better for a baby than a good night sleep.

when my ds has a bad night sleep he is ratty all day and tbh really miserable.

Of course it's no good when you're exhausted. But tbh I think you're getting ahead of yourself if you assume she'll develop a lifetime habit of sleeping in your arms because at 6 months of age she was allowed to. I kind of assume from your tone, Simon, that co-sleeping is out for you? Your firm belief that bad habits are being reinforced certainly does not hold true in my (admittedly limited) experience. Co-sleeping has helped us all cope and is much less stressful for us all than lots of crying/shushing battles. But then I'm not worrying myself about how to get my son out of our bed when he's a teenager, whereas you might.

Simon - Don't take it personally. Whenever there is a "How to get baby to sleep through the night?" thread, the "Suffer. That's what we did." brigade appears.

ghosty - It is just not correct that a baby left to cry for minutes in her bed will develop a fear of the dark. (Mine certainly didn't. 2.4 and she tells us to turn the light off before we leave her room at night.) I am sorry your DS did, but he is not the norm and who knows there might be another reason for his phobia.

There could be a hundred other reasons whey your younger child is more relaxed & confident - experienced parents >> less anxiety in parent >> less anxiety in child, for example.

Cote - agree with you re second babies. I am far more relaxed, confident this time round. I also knew that if I wanted a good bed time routine that it was best to start as you mean to go on. When I think of the days years that I spent cuddling, rocking, singing dd1 to sleep! She is 8 and still has trouble going to bed herself.....whereas dd2 goes down every night without a peep and sleeps through.....long may that last!!

"LOL.. nice.. so yeah.. i'll go to work tired get fired then we live on state benefits, my wife leaves me, we argue cause we are so tired.. yada yada.. but the BABY MUST NOT CRY.. repeat.. THE BABY MUST NOT CRY.. come on.. be real people please.. balance in all things."

Simon, I think people are genuinely trying to help, and are being real, believe it or not. We are one example of people who didn't do cc, and yet are still (very happily) together and still gainfully employed! It's just that there are other ways to do things - it's not just "cc or your child will never sleep and your life will be hell". It is absolutely up to you, of course, if you choose to do cc, but those who don't are no more bonkers than you.

Good advice I heard was to get your child used to a variety of sleep associations; that's handy for situations where, say, the usual comforter is not available.

No sex, sleep deprivation, shitty nappies -
and now a fucking controlled crying debate on the web!
The joys of modern fatherhood, Simon.

As you might have gathered sleep is a pretty divisive issue on MN.
That's why we need your guidance on what it is that you want from this thread.

Your opening post and first few posts suggested to me that you
are looking for alternatives to what you are doing - is that what you want?
Is your current approach not working, for you and/or your lo?

Or, as per your last posts, do you want some support to be able to do EASY with CC successfully?

Let us know

Hi DaddyJ,

We are sticking with it for now.. albiet a modified version with some EASY, and some wake to sleep mixed in. Basically i was after support here but understand that its a tricky topic. The wake to sleep is interesting and we will try that these coming days.

While its hard.. progress is being made.. TBH who knows whether its good or bad.. but we are trying it.

wish us luck... here we go again fingers crossed she is a peaceful angel tonight.

Thanks for the encouragement

SimontheDad - Good luck and well done for sticking with it. Couldn't read the entire thread due to varying expletives appearing as if by magic out of my mouth - we are the parent for goodness sake and why you'd let your child take the piss all night when you don;t let them during the day is beyond me! (sorry - couldn't hold it in any longer) CC works really well - 10 mins/2 mins from a young age and makes for a seriously happy baby (and parent) once the initial few days are over (for me - can't speak for everyone). I shall go and get my hard hat now as no doubt the plop will fall from on high.

I promise cuddling a baby to sleep need not be a habit that cannot be broken- honest indian.... you won't reinforce it by doing it and then not be able to give it up- we're not taking skinner's lab rats here..... but whatever....
don't think you need to hold in arms anyway from the sounds of it..... Have you tried putting her to sleep on her front (if she can roll back) if she's rolling onto her tum anyway maybe she is more comfortable there and I always found that gentle rythmic pats on the bum combined with a loudish shush shush did the job....fingers crossed

Tbh I thought of the pu/pd method and the ssshhh method....but my question is.....at what point can you put them down without doing it?? I put my dd down, read her a story, tuck her in and thats it...not a peep till the morning. And the process of putting her to bed takes 5 mins.