15 month old won't go to bed....ever

[donchafeellikecrying]

his isnt our first rodeo in that we aren't first time parents....have an older child who admittedly didn't sleep through consistently or consistently in her own bed until almost age 5 but she was fine as long as not on her own But we have 15 month old twins now - boy and girl. Girl is fine just wants to fall asleep next to me and then will go in her cot. Yes can wake in the middle of the night and then comes in with us for a cuddle but does sleep But our boy.......he just doesn't want to go to sleep...ever. We have fallen in a trap of me doing his sisters bed time and DH taking him out in the car and driving until he's asleep and then putting him to bed. Because he just would scream for hours otherwise. BUT we can't carry on like that** as I'm worried how will ever he go to bed on his own (and it's costing a fortune in fuel!) - it was working fine for about 2 months but the last few nights he'll sleep for an hour or two and then be wide awake and just won't go back to sleep. We couldn't do cry it out etc before because he shares with his twin and the crying would wake her up and then we'd have 2 babies to settle and we both work full time and were literally going to work on a couple of hours sleep if we were lucky But now I'm thinking of trying it again but moving his sister downstairs to the sofa when she is asleep and then going for it? Does it actually work though? I've said to DH we need to commit to it and follow through for what could be several nights of crying I guess I'm just after tips and solidarity - sounds awful but we have to almost break his will when it comes to bed times. I've had 2 hours sleep in 48 hours and i have a very high pressured and challenging job and just need some more consistent sleep and not feel anxious when it comes to bed times Sorry for the rambling!

[pigcon1]

If you are able to pay for it I would see if you can find a sleep trainer/nanny to get your son into a routine. Lack of sleep is hideous - lot of sympathy for you all. One of my twins stayed up to get some time one on one and I ended up calling a hospital multiple birth specialist (psychotherapist) for help after a year, I was on my knees by that point. It does get better.

[sheepandcaravan]

Handhold and much sympathy.

I'm not a twin mum but a bad sleeper mum and best friend to a twin mum.

Ferber, all the way at this point. It has a twin section.

Move her in with you short term, or downstairs like you say, or wherever, but it does work. The benefits for me far, far outweighed the crying, which in hindsight she was doing anyway.

[donchafeellikecrying]

@pigcon1

Thanks for your reply - a nanny would definitely not be affordable unfortunately.
I'll have a Google about sleep trainers but I wonder if they ll just tell us what I can already find online to try - like Ferber / controlled crying etc

[donchafeellikecrying]

@sheepandcaravan

Handhold and much sympathy.

I'm not a twin mum but a bad sleeper mum and best friend to a twin mum.

Ferber, all the way at this point. It has a twin section.

Move her in with you short term, or downstairs like you say, or wherever, but it does work. The benefits for me far, far outweighed the crying, which in hindsight she was doing anyway.

Thanks!

I do want to try it I think I'm just nervous. A couple of months back when bedtimes took a turn for the worse - seemed like he went through huge sleep regression just after turning 1 - there were nights he would just scream and cry and scream and cry for hours - he's a big boy and would just thrash around when picked up and rocked trying to be comforted and It just got everyone in the house awake and upset and he's just so stubborn he got himself worked up into a right state

[sheepandcaravan]

Oh yes, I get that, I was there, albeit with one. The turning point for me was passing out with tiredness, in the car. It is not sustainable.

I wouldn't look online necessarily. Get the book, read the relevant chapters and start. You don't pick up put down for example, that also made mine worse, more a check, lie down and leave.

Look I'm not saying it's pleasing, but I am saying it works and the difference in a child who has slept is breathtaking. Behaviour, eating, development.

[LittleOwl153]

Could you move the twin girl in with the older girl for now?

I absolutely feel for you no sleep is a killer (and that's without the toddler twins to deal with!)

[steppemum]

There is a big difference between crying it out (which is damaging) and controlled crying which can work.

My SIL did a sleep trainer. It was amazing. very simple and obvious but having someone fromthe outside observe and be objective was so helpful. Her breaking point was standing over the cot with her hand on her dds back waiting for her to fall asleep for an hour, while the restaurant was booked for her own birthday. She never made the meal out. She booked a sleep trainer!

[sunshine298]

What is his routine like? Does he have a good bed time routine?

What about naps, meals etc?

Does he have any screen time before bed? This can really negatively affect them settling down for bed. At minimum should be turned off an hour before bed in my experience

[donchafeellikecrying]

@LittleOwl153

Could you move the twin girl in with the older girl for now?

I absolutely feel for you no sleep is a killer (and that's without the toddler twins to deal with!)

My eldest is in a bunk bed so can't trust my toddler twin in that plus it's not a very big room although could make a bed up on the floor

[donchafeellikecrying]

@sunshine298

He does love the TV 🤦🏻‍♀️ but I've been really strict about no screen time heading towards bedtime. But it seems like he's the type of child that takes hours to wind down and their big sister seems to get them both very excited just by looking at them 😂 they have a lovely relationship (one I always dreamed of after losing several babies and having to do a lot of ivf to get the twins) and our house is open plan so I can't keep them apart

Current routine is

Dinner around 5 ish
Big sister gets home around then too and they'll play
Tv goes off at 6 ish
He won't sit and listen to a book being read so we've had to go with letting him have a quiet toy or looking at books himself
Milk around 630 ish and then little twin goes up first as she'll only fall asleep if she's next to me
Boy twin goes out in the car with DH - some nights it can be 10 mins drive around the block and then he's asleep and popped in his cot. Other nights it can be over an hour

This has worked fine for the last 2 months until this week!

Bath time every other night. Have to say he seems worse not better in terms of being awake and playful after a bath compared to the nights he doesn't have one!

[donchafeellikecrying]

They are with a childminder full time and they have a morning nap - we are generally all up by 530am so tend to have a long morning nap but no afternoon naps.

They both eat great! Veg fruit etc. a variation/simplified version of what DH and I eat

[sunshine298]

@donchafeellikecrying I'm not anti screen time at all but I'd definitely try and turn it off a lot earlier than 6 and see how you get on

My LB is 14 months and I let him eat dinner and watch tv but by 5:15pm I turn the tv off even if he's not finished eating

[steppemum]

one thing the sleep trainer told my SIL was that there is a 45 minute cycle.
You wind down for 45 minutes and then they start to wind up again. If you have a bedtime routine, it needs to be completed and in bed within that 45 minutes, otherwise you start the wind up part of the cycle and then it takes another 45 minutes to wind down.

I know that when she looked at their routines, they were taking about 1hr 15 mins to do bedtime routnine, and so they cut it down, got to the magic 45 minutes and it really helped.

[sunshine298]

@steppemum that's interesting as our bedtime routine is around 45 minutes and always have been. Never had an issue putting my LB down to bed other than when he's really poorly. Even teething etc he goes down ok

He's 14 months and for reference OP we do

4:45pm dinner
5:15pm tv off
5:30pm dad finishes work and plays with him chasing him round etc to burn off any last energy
5:45 upstairs for a bath
6:15 changed into pjs, sleeping bag and then has a bottle
6:30pm asleep

Let us know how you get on OP. Hopefully you don't have to resort to CIO as I have read some horrible articles about this and also CIO doesn't always work and even if it does work initially they can still regress

[donchafeellikecrying]

@sunshine298

I think I'm probably there or there abouts with the timings as yours but after a bath (which don't do every night) they generally come down stairs whilst I get all 3 of them sorted. Maybe I should change that to stay upstairs to get changed into pyjamas?

I was doing milk upstairs in bed but when my little girl twin decided she'd only fall asleep with me next to her on a spare bed in their room then I've had to do them separately and because she can take a bit of time sometimes to drop off then boy twin has his milk downstairs - maybe that's where I'm going wrong? Can't do him first as with his cot refusal and crying he just upsets his sister

I didn't think Ferber was CIO? As you do go in to sort of settle them/lie them down etc?

Last night he was driven to sleep at about 645 for about 30 mins and was fast asleep when put in his cot but an hour later he was wide awake and took me another 2 hours plus another drive last night to get him to sleep and then he went through until DH got up for work around 445 am

Talking to his childminder she says he's just very stubborn - if he doesn't want to do something he absolutely lets you know and I think bed time is included in this

Well DH said he wanted to wait until next week to start but I said need to do it from tonight having just put more petrol in the car 🤦🏻‍♀️

[sunshine298]

@donchafeellikecrying tonight try and turn the tv off a lot earlier, and if your DP can give him his bottle upstairs once he's in his pjs in his bedroom that might work better?

We sit in the dark with white noise on, cuddle our LB in the chair and give him his bottle, he falls asleep and then we put him down but that might not work for you straight away if it's not what he's used to

[Pythonesque]

My eldest was younger (maybe 10 months?) when I had to focus on getting her to self-settle (for the sake of my own sanity). Getting her to fall asleep in her cot, rather than be put down asleep, immediately changed her ability to stir in the night and get back to sleep with less (or no) intervention.

I understand it can take longer with toddlers, but say this to agree that for you to focus on fixing bedtime sounds right for where you are at now.

I recall a friend of mine found she had to get her younger two out for evening walks to have any chance of getting them to sleep (pertinent that she passed on their toddler bed as it was never used ...). At 15 months you may be approaching a point where a walk could replace driving in the car, and it's a nice time of year for it mostly.

Good luck! They do sleep eventually (mine are teens now ....)

[donchafeellikecrying]

I think it's just he won't sit still for a cuddle - he's on the go all the time

If I do him first then then the noise will stop his sister sleeping so I'm going to have to get her down first and then move her when she's asleep into a different room before I start his bed time routine I think

We have a 5 year old too so one of us has to sort her bedtime out too

It's the twin dynamic which I makes it sooo much more complicated 😂

[MrsPelligrinoPetrichor]

@sheepandcaravan

Handhold and much sympathy.

I'm not a twin mum but a bad sleeper mum and best friend to a twin mum.

Ferber, all the way at this point. It has a twin section.

Move her in with you short term, or downstairs like you say, or wherever, but it does work. The benefits for me far, far outweighed the crying, which in hindsight she was doing anyway.

I agree. Just do it.

[Geranium1984]

I can't imagine having twins you must be so busy! Sleep deprivation is horrendous and I can see it'll be difficult to sort with two (well three!) to juggle.

I think you'll need to look at controlled crying or sitting next to him as he falls asleep, although I assume you've tried this as it works for your daughter.
How do they get to sleep at the child minders? Does he have a comforter/toy to hold?
Do you have family you can send the two girls too for a night or two?

A sleep consultant will look at the overall routine. It sounds like if he's waking at 5.30am and hyper in the evening he could be over tired. When did he drop down to one nap?

My son (now 20mo) dropped to one nap at around 17mo, we did bounce around between one and two naps for a few weeks. If he qoke before 6.30am I would do 15min nap at 9am then 1.5-2hrs nap at 1pm.

Since he has been on one nap his routine has been:
Wake 6 / 6.30am
Nap 12 -2 pm
Bed 7.30pm

So max awake time is 5.5- 6 hours, it seems to be the key for us. Any longer, particularly in the morning and he is grizzly.

Good luck xx

[donchafeellikecrying]

@Geranium1984
Thanks! Having twins is amazing and I'd have more if I could even with the lack of sleep 😂

• sitting next to him - can take hours, literally up and down. If he started crying then it's even worse rolling thrashing he has a hell of a temper and physically very strong (or I'm weak as I'm knackered 😂)

• comforter yes has although when he realises it's bed time his game is to throw it as he knows we will dutifully go and get it

• no family locally and I feel like we are in for the long haul here - at least a week to break him!

The twins have always been early risers - doesn't matter what time they go to bed they never sleep in last 530! probably because DH Up for work at 430am and we have to be up at 6am anyway to get everyone ready for before school/childminder drop off at 730am. He dropped the afternoon nap a week or 2 ago - having one or not having one made no difference - worse actually - I had to drive him around for nearly 2 hours the last time he snuck an afternoon nap

Childminder is montissori so I think they have floor beds - and actually On a weekend at home he will happily take himself off to a bean bag to nap or stand next to his pram to sleep in that it's just evening bed times we seem at war with

[unhappychaos]

Twin mum here. Just put your boy down while DD is still up and do CC. Take her out of the house for a bit, if necessary. Give him a week and he'll learn. Twins is brutal enough without this level of sleep deprivation.

It will be horrible for a few days but he will learn and you'll all be better people for it. He'll soon learn to get out of his cot and then CC will no longer be an option.

Hugs!

[sunshine298]

@donchafeellikecrying if he was having his milk and his cuddle do you think he would sit still then? Good luck this evening. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to get into a good evening routine with 3 kids! I'm dreading even adding one more into the mix

[donchafeellikecrying]

@unhappychaos

Hello fellow twin mum!

Yes maybe I'll get DH to take girl twin in the car where at least it's warm and cosy. 5 year old will have to do her own bed time but no doubt she'll be happy as she can sneak snacks and an I pad into her bed 😂

I'm dreading when he can climb out of his cot I'll have to get a cage then! 😂

[donchafeellikecrying]

@sunshine298

He ll sit and have his milk and a cuddle then throw the bottle and wriggle to get down in search of "fun" - he only sits still for any length of time if the TV is on - then he"ll happily sit and watch an entire film as quiet as a mouse. But he won't fall asleep to the TV he seems to actually watch it. Even tried just sticking on what I want to watch and he grabs the remote and runs off with it 😂