How do you deal with early wakes?

[MinnieMouse92]

Hi,

I have had one previous longggg thread regarding my little boys naps, but I just wondered how you best deal with early wakes when they happen? He sleeps ok at night, independently settles etc. His naps have gone pear shaped and I assume he is overtired hence the early wakes. I am trying to sort these naps out, but at the same time trying not to consume myself anymore than I already am in flogging a dead horse if it’s just a phase. I just wondered how you go about the day when waking early (5am). As some things I read say not to offer a nap before a certain time, but I struggle with this concept when it’s ingrained that a baby that’s been awake to long and is overtired will struggle to nap well. When he does wake early, he will babble happily in his cot for ages, and doze on and off, so to be honest I never really know when the wake window should start anyway! I just try and keep him in bed as close to 7am as possible. To be honest I am so riddled with anxiety about the whole affair that as soon as he stirs, I am awake calculating when he might need to nap etc, so am awake anyway, but I just wondered what everyone does? It’s all a bit much isn’t it all this…

Sorry, I included absolutely no information at all there… he’s 8months old 😂

5am starts are really hard. We had this with our boy twin around that age. Nothing worked for us. We use to keep him awake longer so we could put him down with sister to nap but it didn’t really help. I think it was just a phase. Almost overnight he started sleeping in later around 10 months. Now at 26 months he will sleep until around 6.30am. Sometimes 6am and occasionally 7am. It is doesn’t matter so much now but I would use a blackout blind. It keeps it dark during the summer when it is light at 4/5am. I think that has helped us.

5am-6am were normal wake up times for me when my DC were younger. We tried getting them to bed early, later, more naps, less naps and it never really made any difference. I just used to go to bed early to cope with it. It is very draining. It doesn't last forever and they do grow out of it.

To be honest, he has gone through phases of doing it and then not, he usually wakes up between 6-7, but every now and then when this phase comes up I just never know how to best deal with it. I feel like I muddle through, always questioning myself and double guessing everything to the last second. And then I realise that that’s motherhood and I assume everyone is in the same boat. Thank you both

I do the whole leaving them in cot unless distressed. Mines 530am and I have played around with naps later bedtome etc. Generally I just leave her to it and pop in every so often to give dummy when she lost. She will generally drop back off again at some point. Sometimes I will go in change nappy and pop back in. Depends on her whinge tbh.

Yea that’s usually what I do, he doesn’t usually cry out so I just leave him, sometimes he does go back off. But on the times he doesn’t, I get in a bit of a fuzz, because if he hasn’t gone back off by 6.30-7.00, I then get him up, but by then he’s been awake since 5am and it’s a mad rush to give him his bottle and breakfast and get him dressed before needing a sleep (if I was to follow the wake window guides). But then I am sure he wouldn’t go from 5am-9am before putting him back down, as then he would be overtired. So it’s hard to figure out the best way to approach it when that happens. I have massive information overload and I so wish I hadn’t spent hours pouring over the internet about things like this. Even when I’ve made myself mental with overthinking it all and decide I’m going to “go with the flow” I still can’t forget all I’ve read about it and it’s a bit all consuming sometimes! Thank you for replying xx

😂 😂 Yes I'm the same if by 630/7 no sign of going sleep, I think I better get her up. I'm the same about naps too. I'm obsessed with reading everyone's comments and searched for perfect routine at 7 months old. Some say 234. Some say 3 naps. Some say no sleeping after 3pm or 4pm or 5pm. Some say awake times of 2 hours, some say 3 hours in the morning to discourage early waking. Some say later bedtime, some say earlier bedtime 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ some say wake to resettle before their habit wake up. Some say cut naps, some say encourage more sleep. Tbh it's mind boggling and stresses me as I would like a sleep later then 5/530am.

Like today think she was up at 6ish. not sure on exact time as shes always quite in the morning - I only hear her as she plays with her dummy or starts chatting. She never wants anything at this time. I got to 830am and she was like let me go back to sleep and now she's still sleeping. Though some people say don't let them sleep longer then an hour in the morning.... 🤔 But then I'm like how can she make it to 730pm (latest I can keep her up) for bed as it doesn't fit in enough wake time and sleep if that makes sense. Then I have overtired baby and she be up all night 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🥺 I do 2.5 hour awake times.

There's a MN called @fatedestiny she's very good at advice. Hopefully she will see your post. But havent seen any comments from her for a little while.

Oh OP, it sounds like a difficult time and I can definitely relate to the anxiety around naps and wake windows! What are his day naps like? I ask as I wondered if he was ready to move away from wake windows and into a more regular pattern of naps? Between 6 and 9 months most babies are ready to drop from 3 to 2 naps and at that point you can go off of more fixed nap times. My DD is 7-months and we’re just in the transition to 2 naps now. I therefore try and put her down at 9am and 1pm. Like most LO’s, she’ll be stirring from 5ish, but I won’t get her out of her cot until 7 (if she is crying before then, I will bring her in with me and that usually quietens her down). I then won’t put her down until 9am. On the assumption she has a decent nap (up to an hour), I won’t then nap her again until 1pm. And again, on the assumption she does a decent nap (between 90 minutes and 2 hours), she’ll go through until bedtime. Moving to this structure and away from wake windows is natural at this age and it has massively helped reduced my stress levels - I really was exactly like you, awake in bed frantically trying to calculate my day (wake windows are a brilliant concept, but also the devils work!). As my DD is still in transition, it’s still a bit hit and miss, so some days she’ll only do short naps, which then means I do have to nap her a third time and go more with a wake windows approach, but I’m trying to limit those days in the hope of naturally extending her nap times by sticking to the routine. So maybe you could take the stress away and move towards the more structured approach (sometimes referred to as 2-3-4).

@canyoutoleratethis how long does your lo sleep at these naps? Did they tolerate it well?

And sorry I realise after rereading you do briefly say 😂 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️ blame the tiredness of being up since 5am 😂

Op what time does lo go bed? Apologies if you mentioned but I can't see it x

[quote Pickle2021]@canyoutoleratethis how long does your lo sleep at these naps? Did they tolerate it well?[/quote]
As I said, we’re still in transition so it can be hit and miss. As an example, right now, she’s still asleep, having put her down at 9am, so we’re a little over an hour at the moment (I’m actually contact napping her to help make the naps longer - she woke after 30 minutes but I was able to get her back down, which I wouldn’t have been able to do if she was in the cot). If she does at least an hour, I will then not put her down again until 1pm, so that’s 3 hours. I can usually rely on her doing 90 minutes for this second nap. If she does that, then we go through and have a 6.30 bedtime.

My aim is to encourage her to nap longer for both naps so that I can push the second nap time to 1.30 or even 2, and then have a later bedtime. That’s why I’ve accepted a brief period with contact naps as it’s an easier way to extend her nap times (this is probably controversial, but it’s working for us, and I don’t mind the snuggles, especially if it gets us away from wake windows and 4 naps a day!!)

If she does short naps, then I do give her a catnap at 4pm. But she really fights this (hence why we’ve moved to this more structured approach). I’m wondering whether to even keep giving her this on her short nap days or just try and stick to the structure, deal with the overtiredness, and hope she naturally extends those naps given enough practice.

We’re only a week and a bit into this approach, but it seems to be working. Like you, I have followed the wonderful FateDestiny and other advice on here, so am fairly confident the basics of my approach are broadly right, it’s just a question of whether my little one is ready or if I’m pushing her too early, and only time will tell in another week or so to see how she is with her sleep overall.

Hope that helps! Honestly, I’ve driven myself crazy with wake windows for the past 5 months so I can really relate to what you and the OP have said! It’s so hard to know what to do and it doesn’t help that our LO’s are always mixing things up!!

Oh my god @Pickle2021 you sound EXACTLY like me! All of those thoughts you’ve posted about go through my head constantly, it’s absolutely draining 😂 even down to the thought of how sensitive is a wake window, if I’m 2 minutes out with this cause me a problem! That is what my little boy does, I hear him wake and leave him to it, I try and doze (seems counterproductive to sit starting at him in the monitor rather than to try and get a bit more sleep in) so I never know if he’s dozed back off or laying quietly or what he’s up to, so by the time we are both up I don’t know when he’s been “properly” awake from! He’s not hungry when he wakes early, he wouldn’t take a bottle, so I know it’s not that. To be quite honest I go to bed quite early when we are going through these phases so the early morning is nowhere near as bad and the anxiety of thinking “how do I deal with this day now”. It’s weirdly comforting to see that I’m not alone in thinking this way ALL THE TIME (not that it’s nice for anyone to feel like that). @fatedestiny in excellent and my previous thread was addressed to her personally, I think I’ve bugged her more than enough

@canyoutoleratethis so he used to be a catnapper, but for a few weeks had a bit of a routine of 1h20 in the morning, 1h20 in the afternoon and about 30mins at 4.30 to 5.00. This got him to 8pm bedtime absolutely fine (to answer your question too @Pickle2021). But it seemed that he was ready to perhaps stretch a little bit, so started trying to structure the day a tad, and we had a couple of 2 nap days, which bought his bedtime to 7pm. One of the days he went through to 7am, another of the days he was about between 6.00-6.30. But then gradually he started waking earlier and getting upset at nap times and waking up upset which is where we are now, I bit hit and miss. I don’t know if maybe I pushed him a bit far with the wake windows and made him a bit tired, although I have been VERY cautious with the transition and have given more 3 nap days than 2. Yesterday he woke hysterical after 26mins in the morning, slept for an 1.5hrs in the afternoon and 10mins in the car at 4.30. I know this is not enough sleep, but he went to bed at 7.30 and didn’t wake til 7.00 this morning! But I definitely see what you’re saying about structuring the day more, I think this is what he needs. Even when he takes a short shit nap, he won’t go back off until a few good hrs after, so I can’t even get short frequent naps in as much as I’d like to on those days. I think I will just take it very slowly, I’ve a permanent fear of creating an overtired cycle.

Thank you both so much xxx

8pm bedtime usually gets him through to between 6-7, which I’m fine with, and I know the average overnight is 10-12hrs. So I know that a 7pm bedtime will give a wake from 5am, which is where I struggle a bit with the transition as the days alternate - a 2 nap day will bring a 7pm bedtime and an earlier wake, early wake then gives and 3 nap day which then gives an 8pm bedtime, which gives a later wake up and a 2 nap day - all whilst trying to avoid keeping up too long/not long enough/not napping too early and not napping too late.

Oh my god listen to me… I’ve lost the plot haven’t I!!

@canyoutoleratethis agreed RE: wake windows, I’m sure they’ve contributed to my need for anxiety medication from the drs! Why are they even a thing 😂

OP, with those nap times (2 lots of 1hr 20), I would definitely agree he’s ready to shift to a structured 2-3-4 approach, and suggest he’s just struggling a bit with the transition. It sounds like you’ve had a few brilliant days though, so there’s definitely hope. My new anxiety is whether to just stick with the 2 nap structure regardless of the short nap days and ride out the overtiredness for a couple of weeks, or do a softer transition and sometimes still allow 3 naps. I can’t help but think reverting back to 3 naps throws my DD off, so am mindful to stick with it. But I haven’t got a bloody clue!! Grrr… why can’t these little people come with manuals that tell us the right answer!! Trying to figure out what to do with their sleep is so hard. It does sound like you’re doing a really great job though and have the bones of a 2 nap structure and a LO who is ready for it xx

[quote MinnieMouse92]@canyoutoleratethis agreed RE: wake windows, I’m sure they’ve contributed to my need for anxiety medication from the drs! Why are they even a thing 😂[/quote]
Honestly, they’ve been all I’ve been thinking about for months!! I get the need for them, and they’re a great way of trying to manage a baby and their sleep, but the endless bloody permutations, and the constant need to recalculate after one curve ball (which with babies happens all the time!!). It’s exhausting. I’m in complete solidarity with you and the wake-window induced anxiety!!

@MinnieMouse92

8pm bedtime usually gets him through to between 6-7, which I’m fine with, and I know the average overnight is 10-12hrs. So I know that a 7pm bedtime will give a wake from 5am, which is where I struggle a bit with the transition as the days alternate - a 2 nap day will bring a 7pm bedtime and an earlier wake, early wake then gives and 3 nap day which then gives an 8pm bedtime, which gives a later wake up and a 2 nap day - all whilst trying to avoid keeping up too long/not long enough/not napping too early and not napping too late.

Oh my god listen to me… I’ve lost the plot haven’t I!!

Absolutely understand the issue with bedtimes leading to a 2 and then a 3 nap day. That’s why I’m more leaning towards sticking with the structure regardless, otherwise we’re just constantly stuck on the same loop, and balls to that!

@canyoutoleratethis thank you 🤗

We still do a cat nap about 430 or 5. With bedtime 7 to 730 so causes the 5am wake ups. Think I need to push this bedtime later to get to 8pm to help 😂

I'm so glad we can join the whole obsessing over awake times and naps. Makes me feel better 😂

@canyoutoleratethis I know what you mean! It’s not like when they are tiny and if they have a crap nap you can put them back down an hour later and they’ll sleep, they also have so much more fun and interesting things to do now! I used to be able to lay next to my son whilst he was in his Next2Me and hold his hand and pat his bum to extend naps etc, no such chance as that now! He’s in his big boy cot in own room and lowest setting because he’s flat out pulling himself up all the time. He goes off well on his own, hasn’t needed me to get him to sleep for a long time, but once he’s had a bit of a nap, even a short one, there is just no extending it anymore. I’ve given up trying to do that as it was stressing us both out. I just get worried about short naps and long awake windows leading to an overtired baby as I don’t know how I’d get him out of it! So when i know he really does need that third nap, I take him out in the car and let him “accidentally” fall asleep for a little while, or give him a contact nap, so it’s not in the cot and not like a proper nap. Maybe that might work if you’re worried about confusing her but not wanting to put her to bed overtired on days she needs 3? I don’t know who I think I am giving advice, I feel bloody hopeless most days 😂

@Pickle2021 strangely reassuring isn’t it when you know there are others thinking and feeling exactly the same as you! Makes me feel less shit that’s for sure

Honestly, this drove me nuts when DD1 was little! She barely napped anyway by 8 months (2 x 28 minutes) and went to bed no problem of an evening but woke up at 4.30-5 full of the joys!

We played around with lots of things but in the end left her in her cot until 6 unless upset; if upset, we treated it light a night waking and attempted to resettle until 6. Never moved morning naptime, but as she was such a crap napper anyway overtiredness made no difference!

She grew out of it almost overnight; at around 11 months she started walking and refused her second nap all in one go. We moved her to one nap at 11am and she slept through the night and until 6am from the following day.

No idea if that works for everyone, but it did the trick for us.

I sense some significant amounts of over-thinking on this thread. I feel anxious just having read all of that.

I think the basic crux of the question is - what do I do with naps on days baby wakes early (5am)?

Once you hear him on that monitor, consider that his wake up time (rather than the time you get out of bed). Great he occupies himself in he cot, encourage that. But I wouldn't be hoping or aiming for him to go back to sleep at that kind of time of day. Certainly don't assume you have to leap out of bed at stupid-o'clock. But resign yourself to the fact that you're going to have to get up in the next hour to start breakfast and whatnot. Leave baby to coo in the cot if he's happy to, while you come round.

I'd then pull morning nap earlier than usual. Ideally the earlier nap is longer and so baby catches up to normal routine from then onwards. But if not, then also pull second nap earlier and consider a longer 3rd nap and later bedtime.

The later bedtime is central to solving early wakes (in a child sleeping through). Personally I wouldn't entertain the thought of bedtime before 8.30pm at this stage. That's because I'm no morning person and while I could just about cope with 6 30am, I felt more human waking after 7am. But everyone is different any many prefer earlier bedtimes as a higher priority to later mornings.

I go in, change nappy, feed and hold and he usually dozes in my arms. Badically we stay in a dark room until 7am! About half the time I can put him back down and he sleeps another 45 minutes or so (after falling asleep in my arms). Sleeps through other than that so hopefully not creating bad habits...!

Thank you everyone! Not sure if part of this at the moment is being caused by him gradually transitioning to 2 naps (I haven’t tried to force it as I’m terrified to be honest).

Friday:
Woke at 7am
Napped 9.40-11.00
Napped 2.00-3.30
Bed at 7.30 as wouldn’t have got another nap in.

Yesterday
Woke at 6.00 but went back off and I woke him at 7.30am!
Napped 10.20-11.30
Napped 2.00-4.15
Bed at 8.15
But then woke this morning at 5.45 so he only had 9.5h overnight.

I know the wake windows are longer than usual between wake up and first nap but he’s just not tired enough after 2hrs awake when he’s slept well in the night. I wonder if 4hrs before bed is just a bit too long. It’s just a struggle getting in a 3rd nap when his first two naps take him to 3.00-3.30? @FATEdestiny should a third nap be forced after this time do you think? X

I don’t mind a later bedtime at all, 8pm is fine for us, it’s just how to get there when squeezing naps in is becoming a bit of a struggle x