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Planning to night wean - please share your experiences and advice with me

193 replies

Dillybear · 11/10/2020 11:34

Hello all! My DD is eight months old and I think we are both ready to night wean. I think she is ready because:

  • her feeds are now 3-4 minutes long, and she is off and on during feeds quite a bit
  • it used to feel like she was taking a lot of milk overnight but it doesn’t anymore. I have had issues with oversupply and if she woke late or missed a night feed, even until fairly recently, I would experience engorgement and have had mastitis more than once. Now, when she misses night feeds I don’t get any discomfort. However, I would still be uncomfortable if she missed a daytime feed
  • her wake ups have become random, whereas before she woke at fairly predictable times for long feeds

I am ready to night wean because I am very tired, and I’m returning to work soon. I have a long commute on the motorway, and at the moment I wouldn’t be safe to travel to and from work. I also drive a lot for work - it isn’t unusual for me to drive 100 miles in a day.

DD has two naps a day, between 2.5-3.5 hours’ daytime sleep. She self settles to sleep happily most of the time. Sometimes needs a little extra comforting in the cot, but really only if she’s teething. After a night feed I put her back in the cot awake and she self settles back to sleep without any fuss, so she isn’t feeding to get back to sleep.

DH has booked a week off work, and we’re ready for a few hideous nights (hopefully followed by the best sleeps of our lives!). I would be so grateful if you could tell me what method you used to night wean, how long it took, and did it work? Please share all your wisdom, advice, and knowledge with me!

OP posts:
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June628 · 26/11/2020 09:53

Thank you for the positive vibes @Dillybear they must have worked because she slept through to 6:30!
It’s great you’ll be able to spend more time with your DD!
How’s everyone else doing?

Dillybear · 26/11/2020 10:20

Yay!! Fantastic news @June628

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PorridgeOaf · 29/11/2020 09:23

Hi @Dillybear, I've been lurking on this thread with interest. Great to see you, and others, have been getting results!

I wondered if you'd ever consider writing a brief summary of the methods you used, and any tips/learnings you picked up along the way, anything you'd do differently? We are in a very similar position to you were when you started (two feeds, although she's fairly regular and seems to 'drink' for longer, although not sure at the moment how much is actual drinking). We are so tired of so many months of broken nights and need something to change. Your thread has inspired me to finally give it a go, although I'm still not confident that she'll go back down without a feed...

Anyway you might not have time, but thought I'd ask on the off chance. Thanks for the thread!

Dillybear · 29/11/2020 10:00

@PorridgeOaf Hi, I'm sorry to hear about the crappy sleep! It's horrible, isn't it. It affects everything. It's so okay to decide you've had enough. I have had so much help from mumsnetters with my DD's sleep so I'd be delighted if I can help someone else. I will think about it and come back to you later on - I might have a crack at it this evening after DD has gone to bed. It's been a long process with DD's sleep and there's pretty much nothing I haven't read or tried - so I probably have a bit too much to say... you might regret asking!

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PorridgeOaf · 29/11/2020 12:58

@Dillybear amazing, thank you! And I'm sure I won't regret it... You seem like a very generous (and good) writer so that's why I asked, I'm sure you will have some great insights. I think half the battle for me right now is having the stamina and confidence to even try...

Dillybear · 29/11/2020 20:47

@PorridgeOaf

I started teaching DD to self settle when she was around four months old as I was getting tired of the bouncing and rocking to get her to sleep, and my neck was aching from the sling naps. I just gradually reduced my input - so from bouncing vigorously I started rocking more gently, then got her used to settling just in my arms, then I started settling her in a sleepyhead with my arms around her like I was cradling her, and then just stayed with her until she was settled, eventually moving on to just chucking her into the cot and leaving the room (that’s a lie, we have a lovely, snuggly sleep time routine, but you get the gist).

This did involve crying and she was at times genuinely upset. She was never alone until she could settle by herself, and if she cried and was upset I would always pick her up and soothe her - but I was very consistent with making sure she settled where she was going to sleep.

I found it really tough to have her crying, but I also found that when she was tired she cried anyway before she slept. So I realised that although she was upset, she would have been upset in my arms being bounced or falling asleep independently. Overall, she has cried much less than she would have done if I hadn’t helped her learn how to go to sleep by herself, but she has probably cried more than she would have if I’d always fed her to sleep - I’m guessing at this, my friend feeds her DD to sleep always and that is not without tears either. So it’s not something I regret, rather it’s something I would have liked not to have to do!

DD also used to wake very frequently for feeds, and would take hours to settle after. So when she was around five months old I tried spacing her feeds out and not feeding any more than every four hours. This was quite effective and after a few rough nights the feeds spaced out again and we could both get more sleep. This was when she was still in my room so when I was settling her she was with me. After this, she got very good at just going straight back to sleep again after a feed and when the frequency increased I found it easier to just feed her than to stick to four hourly feeding. That worked well for a bit but then the feeds were becoming more frequent and much shorter (90 seconds sometimes), so that’s when I decided to cut the feeds altogether.

As she’s gotten bigger I’ve found that she has a broader range of cries and she does (frequently!) cry when she’s not getting her own way/she’s frustrated. So when her feeds had reduced to that point, I decided to do controlled crying to try to eliminate the feeds. I decided to do it when she was eight months old because her feeds were short, and I felt she was simply waking out of habit. If your DD is having full feeds I would try to reduce the length of feeds first and also make sure she isnt falling back to sleep on the boob before doing anything like controlled crying, as if she is genuinely hungry it’ll be difficult for her to go back to sleep and will be much harder for you to stick to your guns! I also felt confident that although my DD would cry, she would be crying from frustration and being cross, rather than distress. I wouldn’t have done CC until this point just as a personal choice.

I found CC hard and it went on for longer than I expected it to. My DD is tenacious! It wasn’t the three nights you often read about for us! Though anecdotally I have heard that ten nights is not unusual. With my DD I find that she often adapts well to changes with her sleep but then sort of regresses again - someone referred to this as an extinction burst up thread. Whenever she does this I find I have to double down and just stay as consistent as I can.

Even though I knew she was okay, it was difficult not to go to my baby when she was crying for me. However, I knew that if I picked her up, she would stop crying but then start again as she would still be awake and would still be cross about it! So that helped me to stay firm. I knew I was teaching her something that would help her and would reduce the crying in the long term.

I would recommend if you decide to do CC, pick a time when you’re going to do it and prepare yourself. Try to get your DP to take time off work if you can. And if you do it, make sure you stick to it - don’t put yourself and your DD through it unless you’re going to follow through! And if I were you I would imagine it’s going to last for ten days - 2 weeks and prepare yourself emotionally for that. That way, if it’s much quicker you’ll be pleasantly surprised, but if it takes longer then you’ll cope better with it.

In terms of the technique, I spoke to a friend who used the Millpond crying down technique and I used that technique rather than the Ferber method. Basically you start with 2 minute intervals on the first night, and go in every two minutes if your baby’s cry is escalating. You stop the timer if your baby’s cry starts to deescalating, and restart it again when it starts to escalate. This way, you only go in when baby is ‘crying up’, but if baby is very distressed they are not left like this for longer than 2 minutes. I found myself being very generous with the timer as she very rarely ‘cried up’ for more than 2 minutes. But when she did, I could go to her quickly. Each night you increase by one minute up to a maximum of five minutes. We didn’t increase the intervals as she rarely cried up for longer than 2 minutes as it was.

Like I said, I found it really hard, and I have found myself holding DD for her second nap each day because part of me misses the snuggles of night feeds. Having said that, DD looks so much brighter and happier as she isn’t having two hour wake ups anymore! I can see that our relationship is as strong as it was before - in terms of attachment she is wilful and confident and really only wants to cuddle me when she’s unsure, has had a tumble, or is sleepy. Otherwise she’s off exploring the world! All really positive indicators that I’m her safe base and that we have all the makings of a secure attachment. She is also happy going to bed and happy when she wakes up, so although of course I worried that she might be traumatised by it (I certainly was!) I really don’t think she was.

I have also found recently that her sleep seems to have really matured and she is somehow less babyish with sleep. It’s just more reliable and more sound, so it’s possible she would have just stopped waking by herself, but to be honest I don’t think she would have.

I don’t know if any of this is helpful!! Let me know if you have any questions, and what you decide to do/how you get on.

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PorridgeOaf · 30/11/2020 10:19

@Dillybear thanks so much, this is really helpful.

Like you, we have been through the teaching them to self-settle at the start of sleep (we didn't really have a choice, everything we had been doing to get her to sleep until that point suddenly stopped working when 4 month regression hit) and although it was tough I kept telling myself we were teaching her a really vital skill, and now we can see how much happier she is to be able to put herself to sleep when she needs to. So I know I could apply the same thinking to helping her back to sleep in the night, but leaving her hungry has always been a real worry, especially as we've had an issue with weight gain in the past. We have tried CC a bit before, when she woke up 2hrs after the last feed and I was pretty sure she wasn't hungry. But we clocked 2 hours of one-off crying before we thought it's a bit much and finally gave in! How long was the longest you left it?

And you mentioned it took longer than expected - how long before you got a full night with no wakes?

Like you, I've gotten stuck in a feed-to-sleep rut with the nightly wake ups because she goes down so quickly afterwards, feeding her means everyone gets the most sleep possible. We're not yet at the stage you got to, where I'm sure she's not feeding for hunger. Did you ever experiment with a bottle of formula before bed? Anecdotally I've heard this has helped. Ours has never taken a bottle but we're willing to try again!

I've just put her on three meals a day, so I hope soon she'll adjust to that and find she's fuller for longer. Once I start to see her feeds reduce at night, I think I'll do as you suggest and start trying to reduce these myself until I (hopefully) phase out a feed.

And if that fails, we'll do controlled crying. I'll let you know how we get on...

Did you ever tweak daytime naps too? I wonder if she sleeps too much in the day sometimes but I've been paranoid about her being overtired...maybe that's not such an issue. She had 1.5hrs less yesterday than usual and we got a 5.5hr stretch in the first session (pretty rare for us! The most she's ever done was 7.5, once).

I'm just such a better parent when I've had more sleep. We had rubbish sleep on Saturday night and all Sunday I was exhausted, moody, resentful. I feel like on balance, the (hopefully) short-term pain of getting nights sorted will be worth it in the long run. I hope!

Dillybear · 01/12/2020 22:10

@PorridgeOaf how are you getting on? And how old is your DD?

To answer your questions - the longest it went on was 2 hours as well. But, even after a feed it wasn’t unusual to have a wake up just like that. Two hour wake ups with lots of crying where nothing I did ever seemed to help were really not unusual, often days or even weeks in a row. There was one phase where she had more than one wake up like that night! So it wasn’t completely out of the ordinary really. We had the first (ever!) sleep through on night 4, and then I think it was another week (getting better night by night though) before she slept through again. She has slept through since then every night unless she’s napped too long in the day, but now I don’t let her nap more than 2 hours in total. She tends not to anyway, but on the odd day where she does, I have to wake her up, which isn’t nice! I find she has around 13 hours’ sleep in 24, and where she naps longer in the day she can’t sleep enough at night. It’s a big change for us as she napped loads before she started sleeping through!! Let’s just hope it continues!

I asked about your DD’s age in because of food - my DD eats three good meals and I do think food has improved her sleep. She started eating well around eight months and she started feeding less overnight once she was eating well in the day. She always has formula before bed, I hoped it would help her sleep, I don’t know if it does but it’s just what we’re used to now so we keep doing it.

Totally get what you mean about being a better parent when you’re not exhausted. There have been times where I’ve been so exhausted I have just cried a lot all day and I’m too tired to engage with her in the way I want to. I feel much happier and calmer and like a better mum now. Really hope things are going okay for you.

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PorridgeOaf · 02/12/2020 09:12

Thanks so much for this (and apologies for hijacking your thread!).

Mine is 8 months and just started on 3 meals a day. This is sort of what I've been waiting for as I wanted to be sure she was eating enough in the day not to absolutely need the night feeds. She's taken to solids really well, however it's also meant her milk consumption has gone way down. The only half decent milk feeds she gets in now are after her lunchtime nap and at night (not even before bed these days, as she's full from dinner). So still, I'm worried about cutting them out as she's not getting much milk during the day, despite me offering a lot - this is out of habit as she has always been a snacker. Oh, and now she's having more solids she's now pooping in the night, every night! So even if she didn't wake to feed, I'd worry her poo would wake her anyway...

We're seeing the GP soon as she suffers with silent reflux and I do wonder if that disrupts her sleep. We hoped she'd grow out of it like most babies do at around 6m, but she hasn't. I intend to ask her about infant Gaviscon, and also about anti reflux formula. We've never given formula but thought it could be something to try.

That's interesting about day sleep, mine has always slept loads during the day, I have to wake her from pretty much every nap or she'd easily sleep 4+ hrs. I aim for around 3 as I've heard sleep-begets-sleep, but perhaps should cut this way back to 2 and see if that helps. She's also still going down for her third nap even if it's only been about 1.5hrs since she last woke, but I know they should really be growing out of that by now...

Anyway, all to say we haven't quite started the training yet but think we will later this month after a few more tweaks, and once we've spoken to the GP. I honestly at this point can't really imagine her sleeping through. It would be a miracle!

Fivebyfive2 · 02/12/2020 15:32

Hi all! Just to update, my ds has not fed to sleep for almost 2 weeks!

Naps we do cuddles /pram etc. At night have been doing Ferber and after a good start we had some very bumpy nights, but seem to be back on track now. It's going really well! I feed him in our room, then it's in to his room for teeth brushing and a story. We put him down awake and the last few nights he's asleep within 10 mins 🙂

He now only wakes once in the night, which is amazing compared to before. We're keeping that 1 feed (usually about 2am) for now and I will try to drop it in the next few weeks. But he feeds and goes down awake, self settling and sleeping until about 6.

@PorridgeOaf, my ds didn't fully drop his 3rd nap until he was about 9 months, they're all different! Xx

Dillybear · 04/12/2020 10:15

@Fivebyfive2 well done! That’s fantastic progress. I hope it’s still going well for you.

@porridgeoaf there seems to be lots going on there. I found weaning did make a big difference to sleep. I used to give DD porridge made with breast milk for formula as her evening meal when she was still getting established on solids and that helped her sleep more soundly. In terms of naps, I found that as she slept better at night her naps naturally shortened. I think if night sleep isn’t great it’s probably worth letting your DD nap in the day (maybe not four hours though!) because if she’s even more overtired then she will sleep more restlessly anyway? I have noticed that DD has a total amount that she generally sleeps, and a certain amount of time in the day she does awake and I sort of think about it as though if I want her to have 11 hours at night then she can only have 2 in the day. If you work it out you might find that your DD sleeps 14 hours (or whatever) overall most days - so when she naps for three hours she might have 11 hours’ broken sleep overnight, but she might only have 10 if she naps for four hours. If that makes any sense? How are things going now?

My DD is still doing well, but for a few nights now she’s woken at 5.30 instead of sleeping til 6.20 ish. She was sleeping almost 12 hours last weekend, it was heaven! But she’s waking up happy so it’s not such a problem - I.e. it’s not a night wake, she’s just keen to start the day! My sleep is appalling at the moment so I’m up anyway, and as she’s just chattering to herself I leave her til 6am so as not to ‘reward’ the wake. She does also seem to wake around that time if she’s teething, though she’s had four teeth come through in the last month and hasn’t woken up before 5.30 with them, which is amazing. But when it’s a 5.30 teeth wake up, she lets me know about it and I’m straight in with cuddles and nurofen. Hopefully she’ll go back to sleeping a little later soon!

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Dillybear · 04/12/2020 10:16

Should say ‘or formula’ - sorry!

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PorridgeOaf · 04/12/2020 11:59

@Dillybear thanks, we're ok - have started timing the second feed and have kept to 5min for last two nights. 4.5min tonight. She protested last night but then got distracted as I had to change her nappy (TWO night poos last night!). We'll see...

I'm a bit more confident now because her cry isn't totally distraught as it usually is when she's really hungry, it's more just pissed off. When I go in it escalates, it's almost like seeing me reminds her that she can drink.

Sorry to hear your sleep isn't great, even if your DD's is improving. Weirdly my sleep isn't too bad right now, I seem to have totally adjusted to two wakes. It took me a long time though. I've developed some coping strategies for when I struggle to sleep which work for me - have you tried magnesium flakes in a bath? You can also try magnesium gel. It really helps sleep to come a bit easier for me. I also did hyponobirthing and have found saying affirmations related to sleep really help calm me and stop me heading down that awake-stressed-more awake spiral.

PorridgeOaf · 04/12/2020 12:02

Oh and naps - yes I've noticed the same thing. Mine rarely does more than 11hrs a night, usually about 10.5. it's why putting her to bed earlier.doesnt work for us, even though I've seen it suggested for babies who is ale frequently, as it just means everything shifts earlier. I have noticed a general trend between capping day sleep and increased night sleep over the past two weeks. I think in a way I am holding up this process because her long naps are so convenient for me, I can get so much done!

PorridgeOaf · 04/12/2020 12:08

*who wake, not is ale!

Dillybear · 06/12/2020 10:02

Thanks for the tip @PorridgeOaf - I will look into magnesium flakes. DD went back to 7-6.30 last night - I put an extra layer on her as I was worried she might have been cold, and it seems like possibly that was the problem - but even though she has slept well, I’ve still hardly slept. It’s totally different though being tired because I’m not sleeping than being tired because I’m being woken/kept up by the baby. It’s a much more manageable type of tiredness, so I’m really not comparing it to bad nights with a baby.

For what it’s worth, her sleep seems to be really maturing as she comes up for ten months now. She has been coping really well with going to bed at her normal time even though she’s been up earlier than normal, still going down happily and sleeping soundly. There just seems to be a lot more flexibility with her sleep now, which is so much less stressful than it was. I hope you find the same when your DD is a little older.

I think listening for the type of cry is so crucial for any kind of sleep training. A grumpy/frustrated/cross cry is so different from a hungry/upset/pain cry and I think can be managed differently. Babies who are grumpy, tired, and frustrated can be helped more in the long run by learning how to sleep.

Hope everyone else is doing well xx

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Antrianna · 09/12/2020 12:14

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PorridgeOaf · 12/12/2020 18:27

Just checking in - about two days into me timing the second night feed, and one day after we moved her to her nursery (although she had already been sleeping on her own, just not in her nursery), she then decided to do her longest EVER sleep of 9 hours! Since then, we've had a week of just one wake up, usually about 6hrs in first stretch.

I don't really believe it's anything I did. I think if anything it was being established on three meals a day that did it for her. The one feed is now only 5mins, I'm hoping she'll drop it soon of her own accord. If not, I plan to time her feed again and steadily reduce.

We're still quite amazed and still waiting for that 10.30pm wake, but fingers crossed we've turned a corner. I think you're right that their sleep just matures. There is light at the end of the tunnel!

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