Gentle sleep training?! Is it possible?!

[Aw12345]

We have decided we absolutely have to do something to help our 9 month old sleep better. We're all completely shattered and most importantly LO is tired/grizzly all day because we can't get him to sleep anywhere near enough for his own needs.

Has full bedtime routine, bath etc, goes to bed about 7, normally takes about 2 hours rocking him in the pram to get him to sleep, wakes about 5 times a night for feeding (ebf) and then awake for the day at about 7am. Naps for about 2 hours during the day (also very difficult to get him to sleep at all in the day, feed to sleep/rock in pram/drive in car etc).

We're trying "pick up, put down" and "stay and support" but he is crying lots and it's breaking my heart 😪.

Is it normal to cry so much with these methods?

Any help/wisdom needed. We feel so guilty that he's not getting enough sleep, and feel guilty about the sleep methods too 🤷😢

[Sunshiness]

But the measure used at the 12 months mark was also the level of cortisol in that moment in time. That is not a measure of "lasting damage" - just a measure of stress at that time. The lasting damage comes from the developing brain being affected by excessive stress - that's not what this study measured. There are studies that show how parts of the brain develop differently depending on how much stress infants have been under (see Why Love Matters). This is not just about extreme cases such as neglected children.

Of course some instances of stress are unavoidable, such as following vaccinations. That's fine and I'm sure you did what you could to comfort and cuddle your child at that time. This reduces the impact of stress in those moments where it's not possible to avoid it. Sleep training that would not have been necessary, and where the baby is specifically not comforted, is a different scenario to this. We're at a point where people make it out as if you're doing your child a disservice if you don't sleep train, rather than it being seen as normal that parents would try to put their child under as little stress, and give them as much comfort, as possible in their given situation.

[Sunshiness]

There cannot be any studies proving no long term damage on the brain as a controlled comparative study of something that could potentially cause deliberate harm to babies would not get ethical approval.

[NewAccount270219]

Look, I didn't do the research, and I have no doubt it is an imperfect measure. No research is perfect. I can't help but notice that you haven't countered with a single peer-reviewed study of your own, though, all you've done is point vaguely to a couple of books. There is no evidence of harm from sleep training. Is that the same thing as evidence of no harm? No, it is not. But evidence of no harm is an impossibly high standard and almost nothing we do is 'proven' safe by those standards.

Do you know what is very much proven to cause harm? Sleep deprivation. It is also a major risk factor for developing depression, and having a parent with untreated depression is, again, proven harmful. If OP feels like she can't cope that should be taken seriously.

[NewAccount270219]

There cannot be any studies proving no long term damage on the brain as a controlled comparative study of something that could potentially cause deliberate harm to babies would not get ethical approval.

But there are studies of sleep training, which made it through ethics committees just fine - precisely because there is no evidence that the intervention (sleep training) is harmful. There aren't that many and a lot of them are poorly designed, but it's not true that sleep training is just too dangerous to study.

[NewAccount270219]

Also, there are plenty of ways to gather the evidence without a randomised trial - it's not as good, but we use it for lots of research. Where is the evidence that children who were sleep trained have damaged brains as adults? It should be easy to find, there are plenty of adults who were sleep trained as babies out there.

[Sunshiness]

Hi mudcake, I totally understand your situation, as I was exactly the same! I didn't know about the sleep regressions at first, and also tried to unlatch before DD was asleep etc. But then I read more about it and now I wish people were just told more about the sleep regressions as something normal that happens, rather than them being seen as the baby having "sleep problems". I couldn't bring myself to do any sleep training that involved crying so just kept going with nursing to sleep, and DD eventually learnt to fall asleep on her own regardless. I've actually read that the more we consistently comfort our babies at bedtime, the more they will associate sleep with something positive rather than scary long term. So I actually feel nursing to sleep did help - it helped give the comfort that DD needed at the time, and that's how we smoothly got through times that were difficult for her. For me the problems only started whenever I thought of nursing to sleep as something bad or wrong. But, again, I definitely don't want to judge others at all, as their situation and child might just be different. I just find it so sad that people make us feel as if we're doing something wrong by just comforting our babies in the most natural way.

[Sunshiness]

Do you know what is very much proven to cause harm? Sleep deprivation. It is also a major risk factor for developing depression, and having a parent with untreated depression is, again, proven harmful. If OP feels like she can't cope that should be taken seriously.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Hopefully the OP can find something that helps her. She might be able to get more help from family or her partner or try to catch more sleep by napping or going to bed earlier or by guilt-free nursing back to sleep at every wake up, or might even already feel a bit better by knowing she's not alone and it will pass. If nothing else helps, she might well conclude that sleep training is in everyone's best interest. I'm not here to judge that at all. Everyone should do what's right for them and their situation. I am just trying to counteract the misinformation that is being spread by sleep trainers that a baby that can't fall asleep in their own, or sleep through, has "problems", and that it has no impact to just leave them to cry.

The whole book Why Love Matters is about research showing the impact of stress and love withdrawal on the brain. I haven't cited a specific study because I didn't feel like taking the time to look them up, but I can do that later if you want me to.

[Sunshiness]

Where is the evidence that children who were sleep trained have damaged brains as adults? It should be easy to find, there are plenty of adults who were sleep trained as babies out there.

Well, speaking of non-randomised evidence, there are a lot more problems with poor mental health, addiction and behavioural issues these days.

[Aw12345]

Thanks for your comments, of course we never planned to rock him to sleep in his pram every night, it started when he was very ill in December with bronchiolitis and had to sleep almost sitting up so that he could breathe (just tipped the pram up slightly).

After he was ill he lost a lot of weight so was feeding hourly (didn't mind at all because he needed the calories) but that is how the bad habits began.

Now, 5 months later he still feeds more often than he should overnight for his age and needs a lot of support to get any sleep. He is totally healthy again thank goodness.

I never planned to sleep train my baby but none of us can continue like this, especially him. Co-sleeping doesn't work at all for us because he doesn't ever actually sleep this way!

[Hollowvictory]

Poor thing being so poorly, glad he's better now.
Would a first step be naps and bedtime in his cot rather than pram?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

OP - you did not create bad habits. You supported a sick baby exactly as he needed to be supported to sleep.

He also does not feed ‘more often than he should overnight for his age’ so please do not feel that that is something you need to ‘fix’ for his sake. Mine fed every 40-90 minutes all night, every night until I night weaned over a year, and you will find this very common to many BF babies. ‘Night feeds’ are a misnomer for a BF baby - feeding is a bonus, comfort is what they’re mainly after which is just as much of a need at this age as calories. A baby is not just a digestive tract. Fed at one end and clean at the other does not mean ‘needs met’.

It is horrible for you to go through, though. I was working full-time for much of my two’s non-sleeping. I remember practically walking into walls at work after one night of a record 14 wakes from DS1. Hideous. I think I figured that horrible non-sleeping lightening wouldn’t strike me twice with DS2, but mainly I thought I knew every trick to stop him from developing ‘bad habits’. I did know every trick, but not one single one worked, he was still a godawful sleeper and that informed my personal conclusion that sleep is very much developmental, with very little you can do to influence it until they are ready to be influenced!

[Sunshiness]

Your pour DS and poor you, that must have been a scary time. I agree it's so good you supported and comforted your son in exactly the right way - the thing about "bad habits" is just another view the sleep training industry promotes to make us feel like "we're bad" and hence need (to pay for) their help to "fix this".

Babies don't wake up to feed for the sake of it, if they don't actually need it. Like the PP said, all the books that say they only need to feed x times a night at age y, talk about just food intake, but your baby might well need to feed for other reasons (comfort, reassurance during separation anxiety) more often than that.

[Sunshiness]

NewAccount

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out?fbclid=IwAR3n9C9Ex4Yc55itWZwG-ryzL1RYwPBJP3jRxqh9hHlcrFMguiXTtCU_MbA

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24042081/

evolutionaryparenting.com/helping-baby-sleep/?fbclid=IwAR2EKck3dM1Ne9fOT3tDYlCbQf0IjezROQAwFYRxNUUwD6uxvaHNzAwwnio

[riddles26]

I fully agree that waking to feed should not be labelled as a 'bad habit' BUT the needs of the entire family need to be considered. If waking to comfort feed every hour is meaning that baby is not getting good quality sleep and then tired, grizzle and irritable all day as a result of this, then it is clearly not a good thing. If waking hourly to breastfeed leaves the mother with PND or so tired that she cannot function to parent well or drive a car during the day then its clearly not the right decision for the family either, even more so if there are other children in the family. Likewise if the regular waking means that other children's sleep is being disturbed and they are suffering as a result.

@ElphabaTheGreen, if I went to work in a state like you describe, a professional error would likely result in the death of another child and I would be struck off. It just isn't an option for me. If women think it is ok for their child to wake that frequently at night and be comforted by mum for as long as it takes, it also explains why we are then missing out on progressing in their careers - I certainly wouldn't want to be employing someone who is turning up in no fit state to do the job I am paying them to do. It is all well and good for posters to compare our sleeping habits to developing countries where the trend is to co sleep and not sleep train or 'back in the day where no-one needed to sleep train' but they don't acknowledge that mothers do not go to work in these communities and they have a lot of support with their other children. Bottom line is we don't live in a society like that and, funnily enough, parents need sleep to function too.

OP I did use PUPD to sleep train my DD but it isn't recommended after 7 months as it is thought to be too stimulating. This is probably why you are struggling with it. A method such as gradual withdrawal will be better but like others have said, it needs to suit your child. Some will get even more frustrated that their mum is in the room and not picking them up and prefer to be left alone to sleep.

[riddles26]

@Sunshiness, none of your links referred to a study that proves your point. 2 are articles where the author interprets the data in the a way to try prove their point (but it could be explained another way by someone who is pro extinction based training), another relates to extinction sleep training in babies under 6 months which no-one was saying is a suitable option.

I'm not saying that I am advocating extinction based sleep training, just that there is absolutely no clear evidence that sleep training causes damage to human brains.

Ultimately it is a case of looking at the risks and benefits to each individual family when deciding what to do - just like pretty much everything else in parenting. If only mothers were more supportive with this and tried to understand that other babies and mothers do not handle sleep deprivation the same as they do.

[Sunshiness]

riddles There definitely is evidence - apologies if the links were not sufficient. I took them from the The Beyond Sleep Training Project Facebook group and there are loads more. Like I said the books 'Why Love Matters' and 'The Science of Parenting' are also all about that and provide all of the scientific background.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, though: The real problem is that the society we live in does not value childcare as much as it values employment/productivity, and so it structurally makes it hard if not impossible for parents to actually parent in the most child-friendly way. This fact does not mean sleep training doesn't affect brain development - it just means that's how shitty our society is for having the priorities wrong (IMO) like that, if parents are indeed "forced" to do it despite the harmful effects because there simply is no other way.

I think your last paragraph is spot on. I absolutely agree. All I'm saying is that we mustn't fool ourselves that it doesn't affect our children or that it is actually "gentle" etc. These are myths that are being perpetuated as a culture because it fits the productivity-driven socio-economic culture we live in, and because it generates profits (for the sleep training industry, which convinces us that we have a "problem" that a product/service they offer can "fix") of its own. We want to believe these myths because it is a tough situation to face otherwise, but that still doesn't make them true. I think you're totally right that it's probably all about the right balance - right meaning what's right for the particular family. But further perpetuating the myths and minimising the risks will only make the overall culture even harsher and harsher.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

if I went to work in a state like you describe, a professional error would likely result in the death of another child and I would be struck off. It just isn't an option for me.

I work as a clinician with hospital inpatients so I was in the same position. But I had no choice. I had a baby that did not respond to sleep training (please read my earlier posts - I did everything gentle and non-gentle with DS1) but I also had to work. I was not in a position to even reduce my hours much less not work because I had a non-sleeping baby. And that baby would not sleep, no matter what horrific methods I subjected him to.

All sleep training too early did for me was give me something else massive to feel guilty about - both at the time because I thought I was doing/had done something wrong to ‘make’ him like that and I feel horrendously guilty now for even trying what I did, knowing now that they didn’t work because he was too tiny and a nagging feeling that what I did contributes to his ongoing night time issues now. I supported DS2 in the way he needed until he was around 14 months old, knowing that because I’d lived through it once, I would live through it again, and he’s my better long-term sleeper. Yes, it’s only a sample size of two, but it informs my opinions, and I don’t think anyone else on here has been doing population-based studies on this subject.

In summary, my personal opinions are:

• I really don’t think sleep training should be tried on a baby under a year old, unless they’re once/twice a night wakers who probably only need a bit of a nudge to get over an habitual waking. There’s too many factors like teething and developmental leaps which is just going to throw everything to shit every few weeks
  
• Multiple, multiple wakers are babies who clearly aren’t developmentally ready to sleep independently and your best course of action is to try and find a supportive method that both works for the baby and is easier on the mother/parents (try and nudge pram rocking into firm patting/jiggling on a co-sleeping bed in conjunction with feeding to change the type of support he needs, will he go in a sling - can you ‘wear’ him to sleep, instead of rocking etc)
  
• the premise that ‘something has to be done’ implies that there is a definite behavioural ‘fix’ for frequent night wakings. There might not be, and often shedding unhelpful ideas like ‘they’re feeding too much at night for their age’, ‘they should be sleeping 12 hours’, ‘frequent night waking means baby isn’t getting enough sleep’ etc offloads a can of guilt which is not helping your exhaustion in any way.
  
• Sleep is a rollercoaster, not a trajectory of steady improvement, until at least the age of three. ‘But I know he can sleep through the night because he’s done it before!’ is a frequent cry on here. No, he did it when he was in a period of developmental stability, but now things are changing again, so he needs support to adjust to that.
  

I really don’t think posting articles achieves anything, personally. For every article which supports sleep training as fine, you’ll find one which says it’s Satan’s own tool. What NewAccount said upthread about sleep training/not sleep training leading to no real difference in long term outcomes is key though - they all find their own ‘sleep level’ in the end, and most of the time that is actually sleeping, which still probably won’t accord with what you as an adult would like to have, but then they like to throw whole new challenges at you. It never gets easier, unfortunately, just a different kind of difficult!

[riddles26]

Im not on the Beyond Sleep Training group on fb but I am on Sarah OS's gentle parenting group and if its anything like that, the articles posted by the members of the group justifying their choices are not conclusive studies that prove that harm is caused (in this case by sleep training). They are simply just other articles that use available data to their advantage to prove their point when the available data is not actually conclusive.

There is no conclusive evidence that sleep training in an age appropriate method causes long term harm - trust me, I've looked and spoken to multiple paediatricians who are experts in their field. There is also not one correct way to raise children - gentle parenting suits some families and not others.

My personal experience is that I have 2 completely different children. My eldest desperately needed some sort of sleep training to get the sleep she needed for her development. From 5 weeks old, she averaged less than 13hours in 24 (with a record 7 hours in 24 on some days). She was grumpy and irritable and nothing I did myself worked on getting her to go to sleep. It wasn't that I wasn't getting enough rest as I was fortunate to have plenty of family support - I had no issue holding her for naps or co-sleeping if it meant she slept but she didn't. After doing PUPD with a sleep consultant and her consistently sleeping regularly, her weight gain accelerated - she jumped from 9th to 50th centile, she was a happy baby all day and a delight to be around. She didn't sleep through the night until long after 1 year but she got the sleep she needed and that was all that mattered. My second is a nightmare at night (currently 8 months and been like this since birth), I am tired but able to function and he naps brilliantly. For this reason, I am not intending to sleep train for now, its not in his best interest and we are all managing. If I go back to work and its at the point where it affects my work, I will reconsider this but hopefully things will sort themselves out by then.

We have to do what is best for our circumstances and stop making others feel guilty for parenting differently. There is no conclusive evidence that age appropriate sleep training in a loving environment causes any long term harm - this is a fact.

[2stepsonthewater]

The baby whisperer techniques, including pick up out down but also paying attention to naps and routine, worked very fast and effectively for me and my baby when he was 8 months and waking every 90 minutes all night.
Re waking to bf past about 6 months: as my friend said, if someone gave you a £20 note every time you woke up, you would keep waking up!I
But you need to do it properly and consistently not half heartedly.
www.babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0

[riddles26]

@ElphabaTheGreen I completely agree with your second post. I guess my perspective is that the majority who post on here at least are not looking for an independent sleeper who sleeps through but just one who sleeps in long enough stretches for Mum and baby to get some rest and I don't believe that is too high of an expectation. Unfortunately there are some children who really struggle with sleep no matter what like you have experienced but the majority will respond to age appropriate training if it is best option for the whole family.

for you, I think I would have had to give up work if I was in your shoes which I would have been absolutely gutted about but I could not have functioned on that little sleep on an ongoing basis (despite having done all the nightshifts etc as a junior)

[Mississippilessly]

Riddles you are absolutely right. I dont need or expect DS to sleep through the night. But I do need more than 2 hr stretches.

[Sunshiness]

In my own experience it was more about how quickly DD went back to sleep, than about the hours between wake ups. So for that co-sleeping (so not having to get up) and nursing to sleep really helped. If you go down the sleep training route they might leave you alone for longer stretches on some nights but when they do get unsettled it can be much more of a struggle. Everyone needs to make their own decisions - just something to keep in mind

[GenevaMaybe]

I have been lucky in a way because I have personally witnessed hundreds of families going through sleep training with their babies. I am not a sleep trainer or sleep consultant but I have observed the process (including my own and family members’ children) for various reasons.

So in that sense I have more experience than most and can draw upon multiple versions of a story (in the hundreds) as evidence rather than just my own or random anecdotes.

Many parents who begin sleep training are on their knees with exhaustion. Others are trying to avoid “bad habits”!early on. So the motivations are always slightly different.

I have seen parents with:

• “high needs” babies
  
• babies with “colic”
  
• babies with reflux and silent reflux
  
• babies with allergies, sometimes severe
  
• toddlers with diagnosed ADHD and ADD
  

Babies who have been rocked to sleep, fed to sleep, driven around at 2am, walked in prams or slings for hours a day.
Babies with cot refusal, babies who would only sleep while their mum or dad bounced on a yoga ball.
Babies who woke every 2 hours or every 45 mins at night and wouldn’t settle back to sleep without a feed or a dummy being inserted back in.
Babies who didn’t nap all day long or who eventually passed out but would wake after 20 minutes.

Mums who have PND. Mums who have collapsed from exhaustion. Mums who were admitted to mother and baby units. And a mum who was blue-lighted to hospital in an ambulance because she went into a faint so deep that she couldn’t be revived by her terrified husband. Because she hadn’t slept in 4 days.

So basically, I have seen it all.

Every single one of those babies responded to tailored and consistent sleep training. Every one of them settled into a predictable routine. ALL of them. I am not saying with was easy or permanent and there were no tears involved. There are always setbacks with teething or illness or jet lag or development leaps.

But if you go back to the principles established for your baby and apply them consistently and patiently, your baby WILL
sleep. And your whole family will be happier as a result.

[Mississippilessly]

*Genevamaybe' you have just described a lot of the habits my DS has. We started sleep training yesterday. I so so hope you are right otherwise I do believe I will end up with PND.

[GenevaMaybe]

Be calm and consistent and it will work. Also when your baby is awake shower them with love and kisses. Sleep training does not by any means mean a withdrawal of love.