Gentle sleep training?! Is it possible?!

[Aw12345]

We have decided we absolutely have to do something to help our 9 month old sleep better. We're all completely shattered and most importantly LO is tired/grizzly all day because we can't get him to sleep anywhere near enough for his own needs.

Has full bedtime routine, bath etc, goes to bed about 7, normally takes about 2 hours rocking him in the pram to get him to sleep, wakes about 5 times a night for feeding (ebf) and then awake for the day at about 7am. Naps for about 2 hours during the day (also very difficult to get him to sleep at all in the day, feed to sleep/rock in pram/drive in car etc).

We're trying "pick up, put down" and "stay and support" but he is crying lots and it's breaking my heart 😪.

Is it normal to cry so much with these methods?

Any help/wisdom needed. We feel so guilty that he's not getting enough sleep, and feel guilty about the sleep methods too 🤷😢

[riddles26]

That is really lovely of you @SuperStingray, thank you. Don't doubt yourself - you did what you felt was best for your family which is all any of us can do. As someone else said, there are so many bigger challenges to come in parenting and this will fade into insignificance as time goes on.

I will dip in and out of the forum when I can, usually posting when I feel that someone is being unfairly judged or attacked for their situation/choice. I don't post more than that now because I feel that I'm wasting my precious time arguing with people who just can't be reasoned with.

[SuperStingray]

@riddles26 - please don't leave the forum! I had a DD around the same time as yours, and we had similar nap issues. We probably left it a bit late for PUPD so did a version of CC. I have read your comments on a number of sleep threads and they always strike me as kind, sensible and non-judgemental. I suffered bad post natal anxiety and felt awful about my decision to sleep train despite the fact it was quick, effective and she was immeasurably happier after. The sleep threads usually make me feel even worse about the decision, although I am inexplicably drawn to them - however your posts are always so reasonable and back up everything the logical side of me thinks. @NewAccount270219 - I have never seen your posts before this, but they struck me in a similar way so thank you both!

[dreichuplands]

Harm is also relative, perhaps my dc would have had more even cortisol levels during the night if I had stayed awake and tried to meet their every cry over night but they would have suffered more harm during the day as I would have been unable to meet their needs emotional or physical during the day.
My dc have had the love and care they need to fire their neural pathways during day light hours predominately.
This is one of those issues of early childhood that seems so encompassing and important at the time but a few years down the line is pretty much irrelevant.
Once they get to 10, nobody talks about it, it has no daily impact, you cannot tell who did what.
You need to do what feels comfortable and right for you. What seems a sensible balance of your parenting approach and everyone staying safe and sane. There is a right approach or a one size fits all approach. No one should feel guilty about the choices they make.

[TooLittle]

I think you're forgotten what having a 9 month old is like, or yours were great sleepers in the first place. If 'holding their little hand' for 10-15 minutes is what OP's baby was taking to go to sleep I don't think she'd be considering sleep training.

No, you've read it wrong. I'm talking about now. Now that they're older.

When they were babies it was awful. My Prem baby had awful reflux and we had to feed the. Keep upright for at least an hour before he slept, and each feed was about 2 hours apart at best. I was desperate! I'm not sure I will ever forget how dark those days were.

But now I know it doesn't last forever, like it seems it will at the time. And that's why I have regrets that through my desperate tiredness I would have tried anything to get them to sleep. Now, give the time again I think I'd do it differently and I regret it.

[riddles26]

@Sunshiness you are upsetting posters by the constant use of the word harm. As both I and NewAccount have said (on multiple occasions), there is no conclusive evidence that sleep training causes harm. You have not been able to present a study (not an article where someone has interpreted a study) that demonstrates any harm from sleep training, yet you are repetitively posting about others harming their babies by sleep training them as though it is a fact. This goes on right until your most recent post where you talk about downplaying risks

As for sleep training being a necessary part of parenting - perhaps reread the thread as that has not been the majority opinion at any stage on here. Those who have sleep trained/are sleep training, have done so because it was in the best interests of their family at the time. Other than a couple of ignorant posters (who were very quickly shot down), no-one has implied that anyone is doing their child a disservice by not sleep training them

[PlinkPlink]

Please look at Sarah Ockwell Smith's Gentle Sleep Training book.

Its bloody fabulous.

Keep your routine.
Try white noise.
Try to limit blue light exposure at night (even from normal bulbs)
Try a sleeping bag with foot holes (the footholes are essential for temperature regulation which in turn aids melatonin production).

She really is fabulous and she took so much pressure of us. Essentially, do what works for your family.

I tried pick up put down with DS. It was a very wrong mistake. Totally not a baby thay adapted to that. So I just carried on feeding him to sleep whenever he needed it.

I still do. But we're down to 1 nap a day. And I feed him to get to sleep at night but then I can sneak away 😊

[Sunshiness]

riddles But I honestly am not judging you, or anyone else. I'm just contesting the myth that sleep training is either a necessary part of parenting (as in otherwise you've failed to teach your child a life skill) or harmless (not causing harmful stress). I totally know and accept that parenting always involves compromises and there is no universal perfect standard by which children suffer zero stress or harm. In your case, as in any cases where it is the last resort and there genuinely is no other option, it sounds like it's absolutely the lesser evil (compared with missing hospital appointments, losing job, not bonding with your DC etc). So comparable to say vaccinations which also cause some stress and harm but are the lesser evil compared with not being vaccinated against deadly diseases. I can't judge anyone's decisions at all as I don't know how my own decisions would have been different in different circumstances.

But that's still not the same as simply saying it's harmless. I don't think downplaying the risks helps people in the already difficult situations they find themselves in. Personally I'd rather be fully informed and then make the best decision I can given the circumstances. So I just wanted to spread information against some of the myths that are being spread by sleep trainers. When I was in the OPs situation, this information was helpful to me and so I wanted to pass it on. Without knowing these things that I know now, I may have sleep trained without it being the last resort, and regretted it afterwards. So I wanted to pass on this information, that's all - I'm not judging anyone for what they do with it.

I will leave this thread now. I didn't mean to cause offense and it upsets me to know I've hurt people. That wasn't my intention. I'm sorry people felt attacked.

[riddles26]

@Mississippilessly I have left this forum multiple times because of that, vowing to never post again and then end up breaking my own rules to try put across the point that we are all different and judging achieves nothing. Largely because when I was really struggling, a poster on here had a very personal attack on me and my parenting choices, making me feel absolutely awful

Avoid FB groups like Sarah OS's gentle parenting group - it is just full of posts where someone has seen something at nursery/observed a stranger parent in a way that isn't their definition of gentle (certainly not harmful or abusive I should add) and then endless comments about how they would never do that and how superior they are for not parenting in that way. (I am starting to think the Beyond Sleep Training one is similar too from above opinions and posts). All it does is encourage more and more judgement and divide us when we should support each other :(

[riddles26]

I look back on my attempts to deal with sleep problems and I have so many regrets. Now they're a bit older and I know who they are in their little personalities, I really wish I'd just put up with it and been there for them. Sat with them holding their hand as they sleep.

I think you're forgotten what having a 9 month old is like, or yours were great sleepers in the first place. If 'holding their little hand' for 10-15 minutes is what OP's baby was taking to go to sleep I don't think she'd be considering sleep training.

Couldn't agree with @LisaSimpsonsbff more here. It is so easy to forget how it was when time has passed. Before any sort of sleep training, it was feeding for 1.5+ hours to sleep then half hourly wake ups for the next 3 hours in my house. And no amount of handholding or cuddling resulted in any sort of a nap no matter how exhausted she was.
My second on the other hand, goes to sleep with a little patting or cuddling for 15 minutes so sleep training is not something we are considering. The majority who are considering it are doing so because they're in a much worse situation than dedicating half an hour to bedtime everyday

[Mississippilessly]

Whatever regrets I have about parenthood the biggest one will be engaging with sleep forums. The amount of guilt created by snactimonious posters- and they exist on this thread from both sides of the fence - is, in my opinion, not only upsetting but I would say potentially PND inducing.

[riddles26]

@Sunshiness, as much as you claim to have agreed with my previous posts, your subsequent posts are showing how judgemental you are and how you feel that only you are right.

You say you almost sleep trained your DD because of others saying you needed to do it - you are absolutely right in not doing so because you didn't feel it was needed in your case for YOUR DD. However, that doesn't mean other parents aren't doing what is best for their child when they do sleep train. You just don't seem to be able to comprehend that different families need a different approach.

Posters on here aren't complaining that their babies aren't 'normal' because they wake frequently - they are saying that either the baby/mother/other family members are suffering as a result of sleep deprivation and they need to do something about it. In these cases going to sleep early/getting other family members to help isn't working or may not be an option so they are looking at sleep training. In cases like mine, neither of the above would have resolved the issue that my baby needed more sleep and no amount of co-sleeping, rocking etc was giving her what she needed.

As for interpretation of the word gentle - no-one is lying or perpetuating myths on here. Everyone has been completely upfront about how much their baby has or has not cried. Both my kids hated carseats until they were 5/6 months old - they screamed and screamed from the moment they were put in. The hardest part of parenting for me has been to listen to those cries when in the car and try focus on driving, every ounce of me just wanted to get them out and comfort them. If I could avoid the car, I did. Even though I walked for 2+ hours dragging a pushchair in the snow with a hand injury. But I still had to take them to medical appointments. My second still had to go in the car when I took my eldest out to nursery (and cried for even longer when I dealt with getting a toddler in and out while he was still in his seat). Should I have avoided all medical appointments because it wasn't 'gentle' having a baby scream in the car like that. And then there were also the tears of exhaustion because she didn't nap all day no matter what I tried, what do you think I should have done there? Feeding, rocking, bouncing, shushing, cuddles etc didn't work so then what is the next option to try?!
Sleep training involved a tiny fraction of the crying I had on ONE single car journey. It stopped all the daily tears from exhaustion and left me with a happy baby. She would play with me at home, clap her hands when we played music, giggle, enjoy watching other children when we went out to the park. Maternity leave became enjoyable for me too, our bond strengthened as we laughed together rather than me just holding her trying (and failing) to calm her down all day because she was so tired.

So as for the word gentle - I am in no doubt that gentle is exactly what sleep training was in our case. It taught her that when it was time to sleep, she had to go to sleep. If she wasn't well/teething/developmental spurts, I was there for her and she knew that - this was evident by the sleepless nights we had for all the above reasons post sleep training. I slept in the same room as her until after she was 1 and was there for her whenever she needed me.

Instead of knocking what others are saying and accusing them of lying or spreading myths, just be clear that you haven't sleep trained because it isn't for you and co-sleeping works well in your situation. Don't judge something you have absolutely zero experience of

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

I look back on my attempts to deal with sleep problems and I have so many regrets. Now they're a bit older and I know who they are in their little personalities, I really wish I'd just put up with it and been there for them. Sat with them holding their hand as they sleep.

I think you're forgotten what having a 9 month old is like, or yours were great sleepers in the first place. If 'holding their little hand' for 10-15 minutes is what OP's baby was taking to go to sleep I don't think she'd be considering sleep training.

[Sunshiness]

(Doesn't mean it would be the same for the OP, though.)

[Sunshiness]

I'm sorry, I honestly don't mean it like that. I'm just sad at the state of our society, and I object to misinformation being spread by sleep trainers. That's all.

Lots of people do say CIO involves lots of crying. If it was just a gentle whinge for you that's great! Good for you. Surely there's no problem, then.

[Dermymc]

Sunshiness so much of your posting is self satisfied and proving how much better you are than everyone else.

CIO isn't letting babies scream until they are exhausted. For us it meant a gentle whinge and nodding off. Full on screaming isn't recommended for CIO. You are coming from a position of ignorance having never sleep trained. It can be incredibly gentle. It doesn't mean you are abandoning or psychologically damaging your child. It means that you have evaluated the evidence and options, and having a baby that sleeps more will probably help everyone feel a bit better.


I'd rather my child had a roof over their head because I was able to work, than spend all night every night holding their hand or cuddling them.

[TooLittle]

OP, I got really stressed with this. I didn't feel comfortable with letting my babies cry a lot, instinctively I felt it would be harmful. As an adult it wouldn't do me much good and I have more coping skills that a baby does.

I look back on my attempts to deal with sleep problems and I have so many regrets. Now they're a bit older and I know who they are in their little personalities, I really wish I'd just put up with it and been there for them. Sat with them holding their hand as they sleep. I don't believe it would have harmed them. They both love it when I snuggle with them and now I do, which takes all of 10 minutes now, but I feel is invaluable to their emotional wellbeing (they're age 5 and 8).

If I don't invest in the 10-15 minutes they play up and it takes 30-60 minutes to settle them with all sorts of tears and threats with consequences rolling into the next day (like removal of tech time). It's just far easier to give them a snuggle and it's not every night, probably half of the week or less. It's hard slog as I want my evening, but not as hard as trying to force them to sleep, and not as hard on them as leaving them alone when they want that comfort.

I look at my next door neighbour doing her GCSE's and it feels like it was only 2 years ago she was a little 5 year old when I first moved in. Their childhood goes so fast and no 12 or 14 year old is going to want to have night time snuggles with Mum. But I want to leave them with the emotional memory that I did when they needed it.

So I wouldn't stress about training. It's not sleep training as much as training then not to look to Mum for help at bedtime.

My own Mum would seriously disagree with me though. She was so strict at night it was awful! And she'd say I'm being too soft. So I realise not everyone agrees with me!

[Sunshiness]

NewAccount What I mean is, if you objectively have absolutely no other choice but to sleep train because you'd lose your job otherwise (not saying this with a tone of disbelief or anything - I totally believe you), then why do you need to insist that sleep training is actually super gentle and no problem at all - why don't you instead get angry that we live in a society that puts us in such a tough situation? That there isn't longer mat leave, more flexible work options, more affordable livelihoods so mothers can actually go PT if they want to....

[HerSymphonyAndSong]

“I put babies down in cot after every feed from birth and I had to do this ever hour for first few weeks. Persevered. That’s why I had babies that slept properly on their own. They didn’t decide to do so themselves.”

you only had to do it every hour? Mine cried the moment he was put down, which is within the range of completely normal behaviour for newborns. So I held him because it was clearly what he needed

[Sunshiness]

Yeah my DD stopped feeding to sleep at some point too. Like I say you do what's right for you, then - I totally believe you that your baby might be very different to mine and co-sleeping might not work. Just don't spread lies and myths (not just you personally - I mean anyone/dubious sleep trainers). People should be able to make an informed choice, not be misled.

[Sunshiness]

If they are so desperate that sleep training is actually the only option, then fine, do it, but the OPs question was whether it can be "gentle", which I think is a myth, no matter how much we'd like to believe (or are made to believe) otherwise.

[NewAccount270219]

My baby doesn't cuddle up and sleep next to me if we cosleep; he crawls up and down in a way that makes it dangerous for either adult to actually go to sleep, he hits us in the face, he pulls on our hair. He has a grand old time, but it's not sleep. OP has said her baby is the same. Not all babies are the same. I think lots of happy cosleepers think this; that cosleeping would work for everyone if they were unselfish enough to do it. It's bollocks. DS doesn't cosleep well (or, in my view, safely). He also stopped feeding to sleep at around 5 months and completely refused the breast at 7. The only technique we had for getting him to sleep was vigorous movement, and that was starting to get less and less reliable; he was regularly awake for over two hours in the night. There was no 'just cuddle him and feed him to sleep and curl up together'. He's not that baby.

[Sunshiness]

Yes but some feel desperate because they are being told their baby is wrong or they did wrong. Rather than being reassured it is all normal and it is incredibly hard. There might be other sleep help other than sleep training, like going to bed when baby goes to sleep, or getting more help from others. I appreciate for some there just are no more options like that. But for some there might be but they are unnecessarily being led down the more stressful sleep training route.

[Sunshiness]

So I relate to what you are saying in that I actually also took less joy in my baby when the sleep training literature seemed to imply she was "broken" and it was my fault. I take so much more joy out of her now when she cuddles up and sleeps right next to me and I don't have to feel guilty about that.
If anyone wants more information on this kind of route I would recommend the The Beyond Sleep Training Project Facebook group. I found it eye-opening and am just putting it out there so people are aware of it and can make an informed choice from a wider range of ideas.

[NewAccount270219]

You seem to think that parents need some sort of persuasion/hard sell to think that it might be a problem if they're chronically sleep deprived and struggling to cope with that. I promise you, most of us reached that conclusion all by ourselves. People start looking for baby sleep help because they're desperate, they don't become desperate because the advice exists.

[Sunshiness]

I did try the other route insofar as I also fell for these myths at first. It stressed me out a lot and I was very upset when I later learnt that lots falsehoods are being spread around infant sleep. So now I just want to counteract these for the benefit of those who might be in a similar position now that I was then. I wish someone had told me these things at that time, as it would have saved me a lot of stress. I still find life very hard and hate to feel so tired, but in a way the acceptance of this reality has actually helped me get through it IYSWIM? So I'm just putting this experience out there as a possible option within the range of approaches from which every parent has to pick what they feel is right in their situation. I just want people to be able to make an informed choice rather than falling for predatory myths that are being spread, as I did.