Sleep is for the weak part four, we're officially hardcore.

[gingerninja]

Yes ladies we've got a shiny new thread to share our woes of chronic sleep deprivation, to hail all that is gloreous when something works and throw our arms in the air when it all goes wrong again.

One bad night doesn't impress us, we're awake more than we sleep cos we is 'ard I tell ya.

sorry for sp mistakes. keep thinking i can type

that's so true. i was exactly the same when i was younger too. would have just made it worse as well thanks tam xx hope you have a nice weekend sans hubby

you too. Catch you over weekend somewhere in our virtual world!

Hi there - sorry to butt in! MrsThierryHenry - were you still after an answer to your unanswered question? Came across it when trying to find the old Child Modelling threads.

Meg, re:eczema. I had a bit of a eureka moment yesterday. Do you facebook? If so I'll message you there so as not to bore everyone but if not let me know and I'll let you know my theory / solution.

ginger, i'm interested in your eczema theory too, we seem to be on top of it at the moment here. i was thinking of doing a blog post on it, as it seems eczema can keep some LO's awake. we can liase and put together some info/tips.

I'm not on Facebook (too old for that kind of thing ) but got your email -- thanks (will read properly later). Think we should deffo have something on the site because I'm sure it's the no.1 cause of DS' non-sleeping.

oooh can you share theory/solution ginger?

Hi all,

Well today I had an epiphany moment. It's interesting reading your posts about how some of you gave up on pu/pd after a week (and very good of you not to say so when I said I was trying it - goes to show how open-minded you all are). After 5 days I've also given up. I can't see why I should cause my poor little pumpkin so much stress just so he can learn to fall asleep in the way that I want him to. Was having a chat with a friend today who's also going through sleep woes (showed her your blog - she LOVES it and may want to join this group). We established that my DS does know how to fall asleep, after all he does it in the car, in the buggy, and when he's knackered he does it in bed with me without any effort on my part. He also knows how to settle himself - if he didn't he'd always wake after 45 mins, wouldn't he?

We both think it's possible that by putting so much emphasis on sleep training there's a chance that we're perpetuating the night waking (similar to theory that says if you give a 'naughty' child your attention when they misbehave, it encourages them to carry on). So I now have a new approach:

• Breastfeed him until he's sleep/ asleep, then put him in bed and let him settle gently, with cuddles if needed
• shush/ use music/ white noise tape in middle of night, or cuddle back to relaxed state if he's having trouble falling asleep again
• have glass of wine every night and relax about it. He'll grow out of it eventually; my job is to carry on making sure he's happy and secure, isn't it?

I feel so much more at peace about his sleep than I have for months, and you know what? I think he will too.

Mummymagic - very for your bad night and row with Dh.

Also for your bad nights and for the good moments. Hope this night is good for you all.

Housemum - yes! Thanks so much, I'd love some info on agencies. He's been provisionally accepted by a couple of places who I've yet to call to arrange an interview, so your input would be most appreciated.

Nighty-night now.

good night mrs TH, for your epiphany! and the glass of wine sounds like a brilliant idea - i look forward to mine most nights, although someone i've managed a week off unintentionally, i'll have to get back on it

hope tonight is calm for you.

night night all.

thanks you to the voice of reason Mrs TH

morning all.
Ok ish night here. ds went to bed at 8 and didn't wake until 11 when i went to bed.

Had a bottle at 12.45am and then woke again at 5. problem is we would normally have given him another one at that stage and he would go back over until 7 maybe 8 but because we're trying to wean him off i said no to milk at 5 and he threw a wobbly.

i put him in his cot to have his tantrum in there and after 5 mins he gave up and went back to sleep until 6.

It's so hard because if i'd given him the milk i'd have gotten another 2 hours sleep but as it is i've been awake since 5 and up since 6. sometimes you wonder what the point is!

Ouch, that's an early start, Tam.

MrsTH, I thoroughly approve of your new-found zen approach

V unsettled evening for us but fine once I brought him into bed with me at 11 -- stirred a few times but nothing major til big feed at 6 then awake at 7.30.

yay someone to talk to! was starting to think you were all still asleep
Glad 11-6 were ok for you meg. Your ds's goes longer than me and he's only little. feel like trading mine in for a better model today

that was 'your ds goes longer than mine'

That's the joy of co-sleeping, he probably does wake briefly but I don't notice!

You are definitely stronger than me at 5am, though -- I would do anything not to get up before 7

me too usually but he's 18 months and i feel like i really have to start trying to sort him out! I'm happy to co-sleep until he drops the milk at night then we'll tackle getting him into cot/bed on his own

Morning all. Well DD wasn't as good as the night before. We had two wakings one at 11.30 and one at 3.50 then up for the day at 4.50 These early mornings are a killer when coupled with a disturbed night. We're onto stage two and that is to settle her with a pat, cuddle whatever then leave when she's asleep rather than lay next to her. Well that's the theory. A few days of this and I may backstep.

MrTH, love your new approach. I definately think acceptance and relaxed attitude is the key. I can manage it for about 2 days before I finally crack up tho. I think our stress probably does affect them so I may follow your lead and have wine before putting her to bed, that way she'll be as chilled as me

Tam, It's definately a case of you're dammned if you do and you're dammned if you don't isn't it? There's no middle ground with these babies. You may loose a little sleep in the short term but long term who knows once you've conquered that hurdle you may get lots of lovely sleep.

OK, eczema theory: We're seeing a homeopath and she was telling me how eczema is the result of an imbalance within the body. We've been using a remedy from them to rebalance the body but still using the steroid creams to keep it under control. She said the trouble with that is steroids are suppressing what ever the skin is trying to excrete and eventualy what will happen is that it finds another outlet. (ie asthma, alergy I guess) So got me thinking. DD has atopic and seborrheic eczema. The Dr says tht seb eczema is when a yeast is present on the skin so I was putting two and two together and thinking maybe she is over producing yeast in her gut? She does seem to get a bit thrushy so sounds likely. Anyways, I have also discovered that probiotics have been used to effectively manage infantile excema. A Finnish study found them about 90 percent succesfull. So, I'm left wondering if that could be our solution. This might not make sense written down but it does in my head. I've ordered some baby safe probiotics and I'll let you know.

ginger makes total sense. i am firm believer in natural medicine.
my homeopath says the same thing about antibiotics and suppression.
ds has never had anything from the gp and am hoping he won't have to. put it down to amazing homeopath and 'good' diet (?)
Only thing we have done which i still don't feel comfortable with is the individual mmr jabs. wasn't brave enough to go the totally natural route which i know makes a mockery of it a little.

we have an amazing homeopath too, LOs eczema seems to have almost cleared since we started giving some remedies and using natural creams and oils.
here is my routine around the eczema

• add dead sea salts to the bath instead of that horrible petrochemical oilatum stuff
• before bath, massage LO with avocado oil, to stop the skin drying out so much in the water
• after bath and many many times a day massage the skin with blend of 2/3 neals yard baseline moisturiser and 1/3 jojoba oil. jojoba oil is prob the most moisturising oil there is. not so cheap, but i've found once you mix it with the moisturiser it goes quite a long way.
• on the bad parts we use regularly Chickweed and Calendula Cream
• plus the homeopathic remedies

that's about it - our magic approach. i try not to leave him in the bath too long, and really moisturise heaps after the bath.

amber your ds is so lucky to have you

well, i feel lucky to have him (most days)

he was good last night again. just woke at 4 for a feed. i heard a little noise at 5.30, but then nothing until 7. but dh took him and i stayed in bed until a luxurious 9am.

tam, i wasn't brave enough to avoid the jabs either. didn't want to have the argument with everyone (ie. dh) about it too.

9am sounds lurveley amber
I think the secret to your success could be that ds is in his own room. if i could turn back time I would put ds in his own room from 6 months perhaps. Now he's so used to being in with us that moving him is going to be a major upheaval.

Well done Amber for your continuing sleep success!

And Ginger, I'm interested to hear what your homeopath says about eczema occuring when the body is trying to excrete something. My eczema was well under control until I had a major op (VERY successful op, by the way, so I don't regret it - got preggers soon afterwards and here is the little one as evidence!). After the op, which involved two lots of anaesthetic and lots of other drugs - bearing in mind I don't even take a paracetamol if I have a headache - my poor body was clearly in shock as I had a mad rush of eczema which, nearly two years on, has never cleared up. I put it down to my body trying to work the nasty chemicals out of my body. Homeopathy has never made much sense to me but I'm intrigued to learn that your practitioner has the same opinion as me about these things.

Thanks for all your support. Glass of wine was lovely, as was the Montezuma's choccy bar at 11pm (not really part of my weight loss plan ). DS woke a few times btw 9pm and 10.30 - unlike your babies he's always more unsettled at the start of the evening. He then settled until 1.30, when I brought him into bed with me. Woke again at 3.30, and he was too hot in our bed so I settled him and put him in his own bed, but he didn't go back to sleep until gone 5.30. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

I don't feel very zen today.

Off to gym to work off that choccy bar.