How to get 12 week old baby to sleep through?

[Belle723]

Just looking for some advice. Im a first time mum and haven’t got much of a clue about how to do things. I’m generally winging it most days (as I think many do). I’ve always let me baby bottle fed on demand and she generally goes 3-4 hours between feeds throughout the day but when I put her down at night she’s starting to do some 6-7 hour stints between her last feed to the first morning one which is obviously amazing - but it’s very inconsistent and I’d like to try and get a bit more routine out of her.

On a good day she will feed around 4am, 7am, 10am, 1pm, 4pm then 8pm then go to bed around 9ish. She takes approx 6oz at each feed - sometimes she doesn’t always finish the bottle.

However sometimes she wakes up at midnight/1am for a feed and I’m not sure what I’m doing differently? The only thing I can think of is actually putting her to bed later? But I like to have an hour in the evenings to tidy the house etc and actually have a hot cup of tea!

We’ve always had a relaxed routine and a baby every other day and get changed into her sleepsuits in the evening. We use white noise and she has a dummy to help soothe her for sleep.

How do i get her to sleep more consistently? Am I doing anything wrong?

Well as long as YOU'RE happy Aloysha. I mean the 3 mo who is desperately trying to get your attention isn't but hey ho

Cosleeping isn’t the biggest risk factor for SIDS

I thought parents smoking during and after pregnancy was the biggest risk factor for SIDS, followed by stomach sleeping and loose covers.

Cosleeping is only a risk if not done safely - either on an unsuitable surface like a couch, with pillows and covers near the baby, or where the baby is formula fed, premature, parent is a smoker, taking drugs or certain medications, extremely exhausted or very overweight, because all those things impact either the baby or the parent in preventing them waking the way a breastfeeding mother normally would.

Yes, you're right - just checked and smoking & sleep positioning are biggest risk factors. Think I was getting confused with this study:

www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/sharing-a-bed-with-your-baby-ups-risk-of-cot-death/

Gina Ford does recommend controlled crying actually - she recommends a "20 minute crying down period" before intervening. As do other commercial sleep programmes ( Little Ones suggests 6 minutes I believe).

Controlled crying as I understand is going in, reassuring, then leaving again for gradually increasing periods of time. I try a belly rub and some reassuring words. If after 20 minutes he hasn't settled (unusual) I offer him another feed, burp him again and check his nappy.

We have to refresh it for DS now and again but 8 nights out of 10 he goes down without a murmur for all naps & sleeps. I think it is worth it to give him the good quality sleep he needs for his development.

It is not the only way to do things but he is a very happy baby and I am pleased with the way things are going.

Out of interest, have none of you ever had to leave your baby crying? Il.e. to do a poo, have a wee, answer an important phone call?

Blueskies, do you have any more recent research that looks at that?

Quote from the study above:

"What were the basic results?
The researchers found that 22.2% of cases and 9.6% of controls reported a history of bed-sharing. Bed-sharing increased the risk of SIDS fivefold (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 5.1, 95% confidence interval [CI] 2.3 to 11.4) compared with room-sharing (assuming the baby was placed on his or her back in a cot in the parents' room) when:

neither parent smoked
the mother did not drink
the baby was less than three months old
the baby was breastfed, and
there were no other risk factors
The researchers estimate that the absolute risk of SIDS for room-sharing infants was 0.00008 (eight per 100,000) when neither parent smoked and the baby was less than three months old, breastfed, and had no other risk factors.

Bed-sharing increased the absolute risk of SIDS by 0.15 per 1,000. This means the absolute risk from bed-sharing was 0.00023 (0.23 per 1,000)."

Alyosha my youngest is 7 (years) so I've not looked at the research recently. Bed sharing has to be done properly - with the statistics you quote I'd be sceptical because I'd expect a 22% "history of" bed sharing rate to be lower than the general population. Although it depends of course on what a "history of" bed sharing means - does it mean bed sharing all night every night, or just that the baby was occasionally taken into bed with its parents after a feed of unsettled? The second option is where the risks might lie if exhaustion is at play.

In answer to your other question no, I never left my babies to cry. I used slings and breastfed on demand, so my babies rarely cried at all in the day. I took them with me to the loo when nobody else was around to hold them - you have to do that anyway once you have 2 or 3 close in age.

If your baby is only a few months old and you've repeatedly "sleep trained" and still have to leave your baby to cry for up to 20 minutes at least once per week surely the sleep training hasn't yet worked at all

It's more like two nights in a row every fortnight or so, often following a day with a slightly different routine.

But yes I think it has worked because the vast majority of the time he falls asleep with no crying, and goes back to sleep with no crying, resulting in good quality sleep for him and us. Sleep is vital for development and I see ensuring he gets it as important as feeding/changing etc.

He doesn't cry much during the day - he gets fed and changed before he even realises there's an issue! And of course he is rarely overtired as he has regular naps.

You bed shared with your children based on no research at all?? Going against all the guidelines? At least I can admit I am raising the risk marginally but it is a risk I have investigated and am happy to take!

Alyosha who is your last post addressed to? I didn't bed share at all except with dc3 as a toddler, I haven't said I bedshared, nor that I did anything "based on no research at all" - I said as my youngest is seven years old I haven't looked at baby sleeping research ^recently" (as in, in the last few years) Are you understanding the research you're reading as well as you're understanding my posts?

Alyosha babies breastfed to sleep also go to sleep with no crying, every time, without having to cry themselves to sleep two nights in a row once per fortnight.

Ah you are mistaken if you think bedsharing - or anything that isn’t sleep training really - results in babies having less sleep! Waking up doesn’t mean poor quality or less sleep for babies. It may well do for the adults who care for them of course. I am fortunate that my baby, although he wakes up quite a bit, falls back to sleep easily with a cuddle or a feed, or if I am cosleeping (I don’t always) when he sees me lying next to him. I ensure he has plenty of sleep by giving him what he needs to fall back to sleep when he wakes up. It’s ok for him to need my help when he is so young. I am human and I admit that it is very hard for me to be woken up so much, but I am not prepared to leave him to cry, or to get him extremely worked up as happens with other methods like pick up put down (resulting in hours of calming down required)

When people say "sleep through" I often find they mean something like 12_6 which isn't exactly how it's sounds. Most kids wake up for a while at least once so just go with the flow and relax. It's easy to get more stressed out about sleep if you have expectations.
Why my 7 year old woke me a few times this week as she has earache. There are no guarantees with children.

So you leave him for 5 minutes then go in, try running his bly etc but don't get him out and then, after nearly 30 minutes of crying, you'll finally pick him up and offer him food or a cuddle or a bum change.

I might have had to leave my crying to run to the loo but would either generally hold it, take them with me or perform the mum speed wee. That's in. No way comparable to leaving him to cry for 26 minutes before he's allowed to be picked up

blueskies - sorry, given you were defending cosleeping as something that can be done safely, based on 0 evidence & against all the guideines I thought you might have done it yourself...

And lol, no, if I BF DS and put him down asleep it's a surefire thing he will wake up about 5 minutes later screaming. If he goes down awake he will go to sleep happily...most of the time. I have to spend time waking him up at the feed before bedtime!

Well as I say, controlled crying isn't for everyone. It works for me but it isn't the only way to teach settling.

Gina Ford does recommend controlled crying actually - she recommends a "20 minute crying down period" before intervening. As do other commercial sleep programmes ( Little Ones suggests 6 minutes I believe).

That's not what she says on her website:

My friend is following your book with her baby daughter who is now nearly five weeks old. She seems to cry for ages every time they put her in her cot. While I would like a routine, I do not want to leave my baby to cry for long spells. Yet several parents I have spoke to say that if you follow the CLB routines you have to be prepared to leave the baby to cry itself to sleep, no matter how long it takes.
This is simply not true. Nowhere in my book do I say that young babies should be left to cry for lengthy periods of time to get themselves to sleep. I do stress that some babies will fight sleep and they should be allowed 5-10 minutes crying down period. They should never be left for any longer than this before they are checked again. I also stress that a baby should never be left crying for even 2-3 minutes if there is any doubt that he could be hungry or need winding.

The ‘crying to sleep’ that some critics refer to is actually a method that I recommend to use with older babies who have reached six months or a year and are waking several times a night because they have learned the wrong sleep associations, brought on by demand feeding or being rocked or cuddled to sleep. In these instances I recommend a form of sleep training that has been used by childcare experts, paediatricians and Health Visitors for many years.

In my book, The Complete Sleep Guide for Contented Babies and Toddlers, I stress that sleep training and controlled crying is always a last resort to get an older baby to sleep during the night and should only ever be used once parents are absolutely sure that the baby is not waking up because he is hungry. I also advise that before commencing sleep training you should take your baby to see the GP to check there are no medical problems.

The reason that sleep training and controlled crying fails to work for many people is because parents read, or are told, that a baby over six months old does not need to be fed in the night and can sleep for a longer period. While babies over six months can, most certainly, sleep a long period every night, this will not happen if the baby is not eating enough during the day (and if the baby is waking up and feeding several times a night he most certainly will not be getting enough during the day to eat), so parents who use controlled crying can find that they will leave their babies to cry for many nights in a row but the problem will not be resolved because the baby is continually hungry. Resolving the hunger problem by ensuring the baby receives most of his milk between 7am and 7pm will eventually stop night waking.

In all of my books I include case studies where older babies are waking in the night and continually need to be fed. I explain how to gradually reduce the number of feeds in the night by increasing what the baby eats during the day. It is only once I see an improvement in the baby’s daily food intake (i.e. between 7am and 7pm) that I would then possibly recommend controlled crying and then only if I thought that the baby also had a sleep association problem.

The whole aim of the Contented Little Baby routines is to ensure from the very beginning that the baby's needs are being met so that he does not need to cry for any length of time. The guidelines I give are also to help mothers understand the different reasons why a baby may cry. If a baby is in a routine from a very early age the mother will quickly learn to understand and hence anticipate his needs. I have found that this results in the baby crying very seldom – around 5-10 minutes a day in my experience.

www.contentedbaby.com/FAQ-Routines.htm#CryingToSleep

And I don't cosleep, but the evidence on it is very mixed. My local NHS trust actually promotes it as a way to increase the length of breastfeeding - we were given leaflets on safe co-sleeping when we left hospital. There are studies that suggest that, done properly, it is neutral or even beneficial in terms of SIDS risk.

I'm guessing there is crying and there is crying. My DD just instantly goes completely apeshit when put down to sleep whether in a drowsy state or not, patting and shushing does nothing and she will only calm when picked up.

When walked in her carrier or stroller she does a kind of whinge cry for a few minutes before falling to sleep, I wouldn't feel guilty letting her do that in her cot.

“ It works for me but it isn't the only way to teach settling.”

Assuming it can or needs to be taught, and whether it can or should be taught to a very young baby

Alyosha cosleeping can be done safely and isn't against all the guidelines though, that's nonsense. Its definitely better for the baby and the child and adult he becomes to form secure attachments, and not reacting to the cries of a baby under 6 months is damaging long term.

"I do stress that some babies will fight sleep and they should be allowed 5-10 minutes crying down period. They should never be left for any longer than this before they are checked again. I also stress that a baby should never be left crying for even 2-3 minutes if there is any doubt that he could be hungry or need winding."

That is controlled crying. That is what I do...after 20 minutes total including checking time he is offered a feed, which he often refuses.

Blueskies - right do you have evidence for this, it goes against the lullaby trust guidelines, published research on cosleeping.

UNICEF factsheet re SIDS and cosleeping

www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/07/Co-sleeping-and-SIDS-A-Guide-for-Health-Professionals.pdf
Note: *
Previous UK data suggests: around half of SIDS babies die while sleeping in a cot or Moses basket.
around half of SIDS babies die while co-sleeping. However, 90% of these babies died in hazardous situations which are largely preventable.*

Summary of research
www.basisonline.org.uk/hcp-advice-not-to-bed-share/

NICE updated guidelines description
www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/news/nice-updates-guidance-on-co-sleeping

Lullaby trust
www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/co-sleeping/
Note: We do not tell parents to never bed share. However, as a charity committed to reducing the number of babies dying from SIDS, we try to give parents the best advice we can, so they know
the things they should never do, and what are the safest ways to look after their baby so they can make informed choices. The Lullaby Trust and the NHS, and many professional and parenting
organisations all agree that the safest place for a baby to sleep is in their own cot or Moses basket in their parents’ bedroom until they are at least six months old.

None of these advises DO NOT BEDSHARE specifically. They talk about ways it can be made safer, and risks reduced, and acknowledge that own cot in parents’ room is safest of all, but none of these guidelines say not to bedshare categorically.

What I get from the above is that the advice is to not bedshare - they're not saying "bedsharing is safe"!

I just find it odd that the advice you see very often here is "have you tried cosleeping" but then everyone gets extremely judgemental if you leave your child to sleep in a room by themselves.

Both are not recommended. Parents can read the guidelines and make their own decisions based on risk - I'm not saying it's crazy to cosleep but you should at least do it acknowledging you are taking a risk. Like I am with putting my baby in a room by himself to sleep for 3 hours at bedtime and during daytime naps.

In my experience, safe bedsharing comes about when parents (mothers, usually) realise that with a baby who wants to be closer to them at nighttime than a cot allows, they risk falling asleep with their baby in their arms on a sofa which is enormously dangerous, and the dangers can be minimised with bedsharing. For some parents, if they are not prepared to leave their baby to cry, the bedsharing is the only option. For some, the risks of poor attachment and emotional development are felt to be greater than the risks of SIDS or suffocation

@HerSymphony this was me

Me too snuggy - I never planned to bedshare, and over time it is reducing, but from his first day he would not be put down to sleep and this was the best and safest option for us