Why won't he stay asleep??

[LillyBugg]

This is driving me to despair. DS is 4.5 months and wakes so frequently. During the day he only ever sleeps about 20 mins, if I'm lucky, before waking. At night it's every 40-60 minutes. He is so agitated all the time. It's like he never relaxes. He doesn't sleep on his back, he just flails around and ends up in a right state so he sleeps on his side. Swaddling doesn't work. He has a dummy, it falls out all the time and he wakes. White noise doesn't work. Sling does work but I can't have him on me all the time and obviously this doesn't work at night. Please don't tell me it's the four month regression as he has always been like this, you have to be sleeping to then regress from it. The longest he's ever slept is about 3 hours and that was overnight. He hasn't done that for weeks and weeks now. Please help, I feel like I'm being tortured.

Ha rhubarb I see what you mean! Nothing different I'm afraid. Just the usual half an hour battle of rocking, shushing, a bit of crying (him, not me, this time), feeding, gentle music, swaddling. I don't actually recall what worked this time. I think it was the rocking and shushing. I didn't get a longer nap out of him in the afternoon though unfortunately. Just a few 20/30 minute ones.

I'm also now thinking what I wrote was unclear! When I said he didn't need settling I meant that once he was asleep he just stayed asleep for 1.5 hours. I had to initially settle him to get him to sleep. But I am then usually up and down the stairs all the time as he wakes. But for some unknown reason he actually did 1.5 hours.

LillyBugg- yes i to an surprised at my own ability to survive. The only bright side I can see from this is that even if it happens again at least I can cope. I only have one, you have 2 so that in itself makes you a total rockstar. I don't know how I'd have managed with another in those early weeks. Gives me shivers thinking about it.

Currently sitting here with DS- having been up since 6.23, after already being up 5 times during the night for varying lengths of time- in my MIL kitchen trying to be quiet while DH is in the living room sleeping of the hangover he's got from having a wonderful night out last night. I've been asked to leave him as long as possible. Trying to resist the urge to set the fire alarm of while cooking my toast

My second was a bit like this. Low point was when she woke every twenty minutes at night. Jesus wept I can still remember it now - I also had a 2 year old.

She didn't nap unless in a sling. She was very wriggly. And grumpy all the time! After ds we didn't bother with a pram for dd and she lived in the sling all day until 3 months and then I could put her down for short bursts then she'd was in a reclining pushchair.

She actually had quite a severe tongue tie which took 3 months to get a diagnosis. Because she was feeding and putting on weight, no one believed anything was wrong but I just bloody knew there was. Especially as I'd had to deal silent reflux with my first so knew that when I was ignoring my instinct because others said it was fine - I was right in the end.

Both silent reflux and tongue tie are really hard to deal with. I spent hours reading symptoms then not being sure because they didn't have them all.

But with ds, silent reflux clues - he was wriggle but winding didn't help. He did bring up clear liquid, he slept better on his left side and much better once he was on his front (he flipped himself over one night at about 6 months and slept for hours the first time he did it). He had very good head control. He went on feeding strike at about 4-5 months and point blank refused to feed. That was the worst, absolute worst moment of my life as a mother as it just happened one day. Turned his head away from me

With dd's tongue tie, she was also very wriggly, she used to slip off the boob and make a funny clicking noise, she never seemed fully satisfied, she would need winding after every single feed. Especially at night - that was tough because I'd think she was fine after a feed and put her down. Low and behold she would wake again after 20 mins or so without fail if I did not wind her. Winding her was a massive effort and had to be done in a certain way.

At 5 months dd became a champion napped simply because, I got so fucked off, I started putting her on her front in desperation in the day despite worrying about it massively (she could already crawl by then and had brilliant head control).

The only thing that stopped me going completely insane was that I knew it would get better (ds was a shit sleeper as well). But I came close! I used to have to go to bed with dd sometimes just to survive.

Believe did the tongue tie not affect feeding then? I actually think DS does have a bit of a tongue tie but he is following his line and I breastfeed with no pain. I'd not attributed it to the poor sleep at all?

Thought I'd mention the crap naps to the health visitor. Her advice 'maybe he just doesn't need much sleep?' Ffs. He's exhausted. All the time. He needs sleep!!

Currently sat in the dark trying to eat my beef casserole and get him to sleep

Well dd fed so frequently that no, it didn't - as in she put on lots of weight. she would slip off sometimes etc and her latch wasn't great. But once she was snipped I felt a massive difference in feeding and didn't realise until the snip, just how poor her feeding was.

Her poor sleep was because she was either not quite getting enough (so woke a lot) or she'd end up with wind and would wake after 20 minutes (this was guaranteed if I didn't wind her which was hard when I was exhausted at 2am!)

She also has silent reflux which still troubles her and she is 5! (She complains about burning in her throat a lot :()

LillyBugg are things any better? I went to see the GP who has started DD2 on ranitidine for possible reflux. Like you, i’m not entirely convinced she has reflux, but thought I should at least trial some medication to see if it helps.

Hi, I'm not sure if it's any better really. He's really changed in the last week or so in terms of development, wanting to sit, grabbing at food etc. And I also took him to see an osteopath for some cranial osteopathy. Naps have improved a little in the last few days, we even had one which was two hours in his cot with no re-settling required (massive shock!). So I don't know if it's just his age or the osteopath or what. I'll be honest I've not made a Gp appointment about possible reflux. Maybe I've got my head in the sand but I just don't see how it can be reflux and I therefore don't feel I can use a GP's time for it.

Hello LillyBugg! Long time, no see!

You had another baby? Aw congratulations (late, I know).

It's easy to forget how crap sleep is in the 3-6 month phase. But a few longer naps, so he can do it. Is he 5 months now? Good age for naps to start extending, so should get better. I used the bouncer to extend naps, keeping bouncing going if necessary. Then move naps to the cot once they were reliably 90m plus.

In the mean time until naps reliably extend, what's baby's awake time like? Your frequent waking at night sounds like over tired restlessness, so not enough daytime naps. Short naps in themself are not a problem, you just have to keep them really frequent so baby gets enough sleep overall.

Hi Fate yep baby number 2 is here and five months already. He was sleeping in the bouncy chair but it was becoming more difficult to get him to sleep in there. And when I do manage it literally I stop bouncing and within seconds he opens his eyes. Like he's not properly asleep. I can't bounce him for 90 mins plus, it's just not possible with the 3 year old as well! I don't honestly think he would stay asleep that long anyway. When I have had the opportunity to keep bouncing he's usually awake after 40 mins or so. I do try not to let him get too overtired but honestly I can't give him the same time and attention that the older one had as a baby. Sometimes we just have to go out or I'm doing a meal, or sorting out a potty etc etc. He tends to do about 90-120 mins awake before needing to sleep which I think is about right for this age. We had one good day of naps this week and we still had a terrible night with frequent waking.

Had the same problem and sleep consultant I used said that the more the cat naps the more the wakes at night....plus not being on solids. Totally difficult to get a couple of longer naps in during the day with another child......if you find anything that works stick at it! X

LillyBugg Great you’ve had some improvement with naps....I wonder if it’s to do with the osteopath? Hope this trend continues for you.

So 3.5 months on and I'm really not in any better a situation I've just come back from the bathroom having sobbed a bit. DS still won't sleep any longer than 1-2 hours at night. We've been co sleeping to maximise sleep but now he's just climbing all over me, grabbing my face and anything in sight. Sticking his toes in my stomach so hard it hurts. So co sleeping isn't really working. We tried him in his own room. Still wakes just as frequently but also will have a two hour awake session in the middle of the night waking the entire household. Getting up and out of bed hay often plus the mid-night screaming nearly broke me.
He does now nap in the day. Short morning nap. Longer afternoon nap. And occasional early evening nap. But sleepwise that's the only improvement.
I'm so sad. I want to enjoy him but he's making it so hard. This is straining my marriage. I have no patience for my three year old. I feel like shit all the time. He's eight months old. And it feels like it's never ending.

I am in exactly the same boat and it is hard. So hard. I started another post today you might have seen. My DC3 wakes every 45-60 mins from bedtime to morning. Only feeds to sleep. Co sleeping doesn't work. Doesn't appear to be anything physically wrong, just can't stay asleep. I do wonder about her tummy though. One short morning nap and longer pm one. No advice just letting you know you're not alone.

I'm assuming hon mean he sleeps for up to 2 hours at a time overnight not a total of 2 hours per night?!
How much food is he having during the day?
Can you drop the early evening nap?
What's your routine during the day?! X

*you

Thanks for the replies, know it's not just me really helps.
Routine...wake for the day somewhere between 6-8.
Up and breakfast immediately. Porridge or weetabix plus some fruit purée.
Nap approx 2 hours after waking, depending on if I'm going out for my older one. If he's in the cot at home he'll do an hour or so. If we are out and about he'll sleep a little in the car and then in the sling.
Lunch somewhere between 11.30-12. He has a mixture of finger foods and purée.
Down for another nap usually by 1. On a good day this one can be up to about two hours. In his cot.
Depending when he wakes, he'll have an afternoon snack with his brother.
So sometimes there is a nap here of about 30 mins. But it depends when he woke for the day and when he woke from the longer nap. If he's woken after 3 I drag him out TIL bed time. If it's before, I let him have a shorter nap otherwise he can't even cope with his dinner.
Dinner is at 5.30.
Up for bath at 6.30. Into bed about 7. Will fall asleep anywhere between 7-8.

He is breastfed on demand throughout the day. Sometimes feeds to sleep in the day. Sometimes doesn't. Sometimes I pat him, other times I get a successful car transfer. It's really changeable.

Then at night he wakes 40 mins after falling asleep. And then it's all over the place in the night. Sometimes every two hours. More like every 1-2 on a normal night. Sometimes he feeds straight back to sleep. Other times he'll be awake for a few hours. He clambers all over me when he's awake. He screams if we leave him in his cot. They share a room so he wakes his brother. So we have him in with us. But it's just not working!!!

Fuck...this is hard. I totally feel for you

So on a good day he could have 4.5 hours sleep in total? !

I think he needs a lot more solids during the day......where is he on growth chart?

Pitch black room? Warm enough? White noise? Does he have a dummy? Can he self settle?

Sorry about all the questions but it's the first questions a sleep consultant would ask you!

Sorry no he is sleeping more than two hours a night. He just wakes frequently. Very frequently. And when I can't feed him back to sleep he can be awake for 2-3 hours before going back down. So on a good night he will do 12 hours but wake every 2. On a bad night, in those 12 hours he might wake every hour with a 2-3 hour awake episode as well.
Lighting - I have a very dim red light on in the room so I can see where he is about to launch himself next.
White noise- we have a ewan, used for every cot nap and at bed time. Also when he is in his room and I go in to feed him it goes on straight away. I've also tried a continuous white noise through iPad. It made no difference.
Weight- haven't had him weighed in a while as I hate health visitors. But, pretty sure he is just under 50th percentile.
Warm - yes I think he's warm enough. He has a vest and a sleepsuit on with a cellular blanket which he doesn't kick off. The room is about 20 degrees. He's cooler than average hence why I have the vest as well.
Dummy - he's had one from day one and is able to put it in himself. Has done for about two months now. Will scream whilst it's in his mouth.
Self settle- sometimes but rarely. He usually either feeds to sleep or I shush pat him. If our and about he will sleep in the car seat or sling. (Car seat is only recent. He screamed in the car until about 6 weeks ago).

I was in a pretty similar situation at roughly the same age so I used a sleep trainer.....

What worked for us was the following-
Pitch black room
Ditched Euan and played white noise app for every nap at a bit louder than Euan was
Upped carbs/protein
Refused milk during the night once solids upped and gave water instead to break his habit of waking up so much
Not going into his room unless really upset....if babbling/whiney/chatting just totally ignore
2.5 tog sleepbag
Heater on in his room

Takes 3-5 days to break a habit and 3-5 days to make a habit they say
X

Hi LillyBug, I remember your original post and up until recently I have been in a very similar situation to you. DS was waking every 30 mins to an hour. I too was having to co sleep and feed back to sleep. Although I found that it was less effective since weaning as DS has taken well to it. I was at breaking point and I could take no more! Like previous poster I asked a sleep trainer to help, the first night slept 4 hours, brief waking and then a further 5 hours! He'd never done this in his life and I felt like falling on my knees and weeping!!

So a week on and he is generally doing very well, roughly doing 10-12 hour stretches with no need for me to go in and settle.

The first night there was some crying but not half as much as I thought! The day time naps are not so good. He usually self settles but is still waking at 30 mins, and I'm helping him to resettle by shush patting. Still not doing v long naps tho.

Sleep trainer advised - solid bedtime routine, same key phrase, white noise on for 10 mins, give comforter and a gentle pat on bum. Then leave. If distressed cry, go in at 5 mins, then 5 mins and then 10 mins subsequently. Key is to watch for cry's. My Lo has always done like a mantra cry, if he's doing this i don't go in. She also said no night feeds as he's eating solids well, not sure how you're LO is doing with weaning?

I really feel for you, sleep deprivation is awful and it takes it's toll both physically and mentally. Sleep training isn't for everyone and every situation is so unique. But my lo has gone from co sleeping, feeding every hour, longest stretch on a good night 2 hours to sleeping in his own cot, doing long stretches and no longer requiring milk at night. He seems happier for it as well..as do I ! So scared that I'm going to jinx myself now lol!

Wishing you the very best and hoping that things improve soon xx

Thank you both.

It's hard with letting him cry, even for a little bit because he shares with his brother. So leaving to cry is not really going to work for us I don't think. I also don't feel too comfortable with it. But I can tell the difference between distress and whining so if he's not being too loud I should try and leave him.

He's doing okay with solids but not really eating that much to be honest. I'll work on upping the amounts. Once he's eating more I probably need to bite the bullet and night wean. I'm hoping that will be a turning point.

How did you stop the milk at night? I feed him so much I'll probably end up with mastitis! Also I don't want to do it cold turkey for his sake as well as mine.

It sounds like you've both had success with a similar kind of baby. So there is hope!

I can't give you much advice as I went cold turkey to night wean (which also made his daytime solids increase massively) plus I didn't let him cry because I don't have a crier but I did go in after 40 mins or so once he was getting more "unsettled" and offered water and pat pat shushed pretty loudly....
I totally get why it'll be difficult to do this if you've another child you don't want to wake! As I said before if you want a better result you have to be prepared to break him which I'm not sure would be that successful if you take a more "gentle" approach. I'm sure there must be other ways to improve nights doing something else that another poster may be able to help you with.
I was so close to the edge that I wanted a quick fix with fast results and I don't think it did any of us any harm!

Oh there is always hope!

As for night weaning.. I went cold turkey! He's only had two wake ups when I've started this and each time he gone back with minimal grumbling. I always new tho that he wasn't hungry, he was barley on me..just looking to get him past his light sleep cycle.

One thing the sleep trainer did say was feeding and sleep are closely linked. I was feeding him on demand day and night, he was never on for longer than 5 mins. Everyone told me he was just efficient but I felt that he was just snacking on me. Sleep trainer said no night feed, give feed on waking, just a solid snack mid morning and an afternoon feed and feed before bedtime. I was really dubious. I thought it was too much of a reduction. But now when he does feed, he takes a really long feed and is on for 15-20 mins. I could only do this tho because he was taking to food really well. Boobs did get engorged for a few days but I just took some off to take the edge off and within a few days they have regulated.

One thing I did do before starting this was for 2 nights, rather than offer a night feed I tried to either shush/pat or rock back to sleep. He did go back and went 6 hours without me feeding. Could you see how long he can go tonight by settling with other methods and then that might give you an indication of whether he needs those feeds? Xx

Well I know he can go longer without milk. I had a tummy bug recently and he went 4pm to 1am with no milk. He wasn't settled and he didn't get much sleep. But he wasn't screaming for milk. Daddy settled him. But that was unusual obviously and normally DH can't do much in the night as he works long hours.
It's sounding like night weaning is what needs to be done though. Julia that first night, what made you give in at 6 hours? I think because I'm so tired I'm worried that I will too easily give in and just feed him. Maybe I should set a time? Like a 3 hour gap rather than our usual 2? Or longer, maybe 4?
DH is away for two nights so it's tempting to not do it tonight but again I'm probably just looking for excuses not to do it. Maybe I just should.
How do I know if he's eating enough solids? He does eat, just not loads.
You wouldn't believe he was my second baby and I've done this all before