Misery Loves Company...nope. Still not sleeping.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Long-term sleep deprivation getting you down?

Join us here for and plenty of sympathy.

Ride the mo-fo out or something must be done - the choice is yours.

And remember the First Rule of Sleep Club - do not mention that things are going well or you will PAY.

I hardly dare say it in case it all goes downhill but we had a vomit free night last night and managed to get DD to sleep in her cot rather than next to me. The dose of calpol before bed is probably why, but here's hoping today/tonight stay puke free!

of course I've now caught the bug from DD so feeling pretty rough too. DH is going to have to pull his weight today, for once

Felkov glad the vomit stopped, hope you feel better soon.
We had success with DH putting DD in cot as I stayed late at work (deliberately to let them try bedtime without me), by all accounts it was much calmer than when I'm there! So I went to bed in spare room, earplugs in, snoring away, BUT on her early hours waking, she did her usual screaming until she got me - he tried hard to settle her, but then I think she'd woken herself up so much she then wouldn't sleep for 90 mins. One step forward and all that....

Oh, and on the holiday note, haven't yet got DD a passport and can't see us feeling the urge to leave the country for quite some time....the sleepers in our antenatal group are of course jetting off to hot places, us with less good sleepers just happy enough with a slightly-better-than-normal night at home from time to time!

Lillipot that's probably very wise. I don't think I would have ventured abroad if it wasn't for DM living in Spain and OH being ever-optimistic about how sleep/travel/holiday in general will go nothing to do with the fact that I deal with 99.9% of all wake-ups I'm sure (loving the seasonal emoticons!)

How is everyone else's weekends going? I had a shocker on Thursday night after OH was out drinking, stumbled in about 1 and proceeded to snore very loudly for the next hour. Then DD1 woke up at 3. And finally, finally, went back to sleep at 6 am after I'd tried everything then given up and brought her into our bed at 5 where she proceeded to kick me constantly for the next hour! Obviously DD2 slept through it all then promptly woke at 6.10. Got her back down for about 6.45 and collapsed back into bed.

Thank god it was a bank holiday and OH let me have an actual lie in until 8am!

I'm back... Our sleep hell is getting worse. She now won't settle for daytime naps unless I feed her to sleep, all out screaming for 2 hours solid until she got the boob. Trying to put an end to co sleeping and her boob free for all but she's got such a feed to sleep habit she's waking every 45 minutes throughout the night and won't be settled without being fed. I'm trying the ncss pull off but not getting very far. I've not had more than 90 minutes of solid sleep for a week and I'm on my knees. Anyone have any ideas???

You're describing the majority of the past three years there for me, YouCan. Pantley pull-off never worked here. You're not going to break a feed-to-sleep association like that without a shit-ton of crying I'm afraid. There is no other way. Remind me how old she is?

I'm only just crawling out the other side of this disease I alluded to in my last post. Christ on a bike, I've been ill. I actually ended up going to the GP on Thursday after three nights of being too unwell to even sleep between DS2's wake ups and said, 'If you tell me this is a virus, I'm going to cry.' She told me it was a virus and I did actually cry Then she told me to go to bed and I laughed shrilly so I recovered quickly from disappointment. No idea what I've been doing with DS2's sleep work. I keep emailing apologetic updates to Ann saying that I think I've been trying to maintain things, but, through the delirium, literally no sleep, feverish aches and violently sore throat, I have absolutely no memory of what those things have been.

And I've not been able to make hot cross buns And totally forgot to buy any

make hot cross buns!! I didn't think anyone did that! And on no sleep and hideous illness to boot? Beat yourself up some why don't you!

Hi everyone I posted a while ago about my boy not sleeping when he was 4.5 month old. I hoped it was just sleep regression... Turns out it wasn't

Looked like he was coming out of the regression at 5.5 months when he did a couple of 5 hour (!!) stretches but it was just a trick
Now back to waking every 45 mins -2 hours maximum aaaargh.
He is now 6.5 months and we have signed up to a sleep lady trainer! Unfortunately not Ann but hoping she will be able to help!
The trainer is called jennie Harrison has any body heard of her? We don't start til 21st April so need to survive until then

Youcan can you rope your DH or anyone else in to help? It's hard for your DD when she's so close to the boob that she really wants and you're denying her - she just doesn't understand. Also someone else can't give in and feed!

I stopped overnight feeds at about a year with DD2 and OH did the first four nights just putting her into bed with him and cuddling till she went back to sleep. I slept on an air bed downstairs. It's taken another 3 months to get some STTN so it's no miracle cure though there was some improvement quite quickly as in 3/4 hour stretches.

I've made HCBs every year since I was a child. I can knock the buggers out like scones. I do buttercream crosses as well, none of this water and flour guff Not this year.

Today must be like Christmas for you, Chocolate. Brown stuff galore!

God that sounds good Elph - have never heard of buttercream crosses, on HCBs - I've clearly been missing out

Yes obviously I'm actually required to eat the DDs eggs. It's tough but someone's got to do it

She's 9.5 months now elph I was guessing there'd need to be a shitload of crying. I don't mind feeding her once or twice a night even I just need two hours sleep all at once without a baby in my bed! Do I need to night wean to achieve this? I'm trying to hold off on feeding for a little longer when I pick her up so she's not immediately rewarded.

chocolate I think that is definitely half the problem! She just wants me and there's nothing I can do to convince her otherwise. DH is brilliant with her and would sit all night with her if he could but she works herself into a frenzy without the boob and keeps going until she's sick so he gives in with her as often as I do!!! I think we have a case of PFB. I could rope my mum in as last weekend when I really hit rock bottom ny mum turned up and picked her up and after 3 hours of screaming she went to sleep for somebody that wasn't me.

It's so nice to come to this thread as at the moment I'm desperate, I don't know where to turn or who to ask for help. My HV just said to let her cry it out and no other suggestions. I'm not enjoying being a parent and in my darkest moments I'm wondering why I ever had her, I love her so much but right now I'm so angry at her I scare myself.

YouCan

There are good HVs out there but sadly IME, many of them are twats. Many haven't had kids of their own, and they certainly haven't had hardcore non-sleepers. My understanding of the current advice is that CIO is absolutely not recommended and CC is not recommended until at least a year. I never felt comfortable with it and have never done it.

With DD1 I just muddled through as best as I could, and I completely understand your dark moments and your feelings of rage. I still get a bit of that now - like the other night when DD1 (now 3!) woke at 3 am and wouldn't go back to sleep. I felt like swearing at her and slamming the door. But you take a deep breath, tell yourself it isn't forever and do whatever you need to do to get some sleep for now and go and elbow OH for snoring

With DD2, I spent a lot of time getting her to settle for naps and at bedtime without the boob. She does have a dummy which she is welded to and it really helps. I wasn't ready to deal with the night feeds until she was nearly 1 then tackled it over Christmas when OH was off work for a few days. I still fed at bedtime (but put her down awake), fed at 11ish when she woke but then handed over to OH and didn't feed again until 5am. After 2 nights she dropped the 11pm feed herself and was sleeping 8 - 1ish then OH would cuddle her back to sleep as much as necessary until 5. A couple of nights she did cry on and off for two hours - but her dummy helped and I knew she was being comforted so it was OK.

No I don't think you need to completely night wean if you don't want to - can you and your DH alternate wake ups? So feed for one, he cuddles for the next?

If your mum/DH can start trying to settle her for one nap or bedtime without the boob, that is a good place to start. Will she drop off in the buggy or car to make a change from feeding to sleep? Can you go out while your DH is trying so it is harder for him to give up?

YouCan You don't have to completely night-wean. DS2 is eight months old and Ann (the sleep consultant discussed ad nauseam on this thread) isn't pushing total night weaning with him, which I think is unusual, as even in NCSS she says, blanket-fashion, that babies can do without night feeds from four months (which I think is bonkers). Keep up the co-sleeping, but plan to feed only at set times as Chocolate suggests. She'll scream bloody blue murder at you, but you'll know it's just because she's pissed off, not because she's been abandoned. You can cuddle close, pat, shh, etc to your heart's content, so you're comforting her in every other way.

Chocolate Buttercream crosses on HCBs is an American thing (quelle surprise). My mum is American, so I'm just carrying on the torch as it were

Thank you both so much.

She will go to sleep in the car / buggy without even a murmur so I know she CAN do it! Up until a few weeks ago she used to suck her thumb for naps and I never fed her to sleep in the day, I just used to pat her back. She'd only sleep for 40 minutes but it wasn't stressful so I felt like I did get a break in the day at least. However, one day she has just stopped with the thumb and we've had some pretty stressful nap refusals where we've both cried bucket loads and the only thing that worked was feeding. Turns out she had thrush in her mouth which has been treated but now every time I put her in her cot she goes mad.

I would love to use Ann but we've just moved house and really haven't got the cash. I'll just go with trying not to feed her as often and get DH and my mum to chip in with trying to settle her when they can. It's difficult because DH is a shift worker so is out for long days and a lot of nights. He is brilliant when he's here just wish it was more consistent.

I feel like I'm obsessed by her sleep, if she doesn't sleep or is awake to long I panic because I know it makes my night worse. It's literally always on my mind but I feel useless at getting it right. I do wonder if I've a little bit of PND because I'm so anxious about it all but then equally I think a couple of hours of blissful sleep and I'd feel like a new woman.

youcan, yes, I am obsessed with sleep and a total sleep bore. which is why i like this thread. dp is in awe of me for knowing exactly what time ds should sleep/nap, as he has no idea, but I can't think of anything else. Bad naps increase the chances of bad nights. I know what u mean about feeling low. I've felt horribly depressed after nights with no sleep, but am then fine again after a morning nap...if I can get one. my bug bear at the moment is the 3rd nao of the day. ds is now 6 months and there is no way we can fit in 3 naps and make 7pm bedtime. I think I have been putting ds down too early for the 3rd nap as he has been going mental. last couple of days I am not going to worry about getting him down for 7, if the last nap time means bedtime is later, so be it. last night's bedtime was 2120, which is v late, but the night was ok - only 3 wake ups. he went off at 2010 tonight, so I reckon there will be at least 4.

Also fixated on sleep and nap times here. I really, really have to watch my sleep-bore tendencies, especially at work. My colleagues have stopped ever complaining feeling tired when they're around me. I'm sure I've never said anything when someone has said they feel tired, but I suspect I'm like Moaning Myrtle - plus I look like fifty shades of shit - that I'm this constant, grim reminder of what having children can do to you. Then everyone else with kids comes along and says to the ones without, 'Don't worry! Mine were never like that!' and I want to stab them

God. Back to work full-time in three weeks.

Beccus The tip there is not to have a set bedtime. Base it on naps, not on a specific time of day. Make sure he has three naps with around two hours of awake time between each, then about two hours after he wakes up after his third nap is bedtime. I had a set bedtime for DS1 and usually ended up with a screamy baby one way or another. I've based DS2's bedtimes entirely on the end-time of his final nap and it makes things much happier. His bedtime can be anywhere between 6pm and 8pm. I'm not fussed.

Which, upon re-reading your post, is what you're planning on doing

As you were. I'm a little tired.

lol, elpha I think I read on another thread u are a physio? so am I, neuro community. how did u cope with going back to work last time ina sleep deprived state? I am v worried about my appalling lack of patience, concentration and problem solving ability. I feel like a head injury patient!

I'm a neuro inpatient OT Beccus . Dearly departed Dreaming who appears to have graduated the thread is a physio.

Work is actually more doable on sleep deprivation than staying home with a baby, partly because you're not spending the entire day fixated on sleep. I am really hoping to go back to work less sleep deprived this time than I was last time, but I still don't anticipate doing a working day after an un-interrupted eight hours, or even six hours for that matter.

I think next time I have to fill in health questionnaires for my DSs, I'll write 'Sleep' under 'Allergies'.

Hello again ladies, sorry for not replying before - I lost the thread somehow. And to be honest have been in such a fog of going through the motions that I haven't had the energy to write as the sleep thing is getting me down so much. I even blogged about it earlier to try and get some perspective on it all and it just came out in a word jumble!

If I thought we had it bad before it is nothing compared to the last two weeks. Two bottom teeth are through fully now and then DD had a stomach bug and then the last few nights full blown fever around 39.1. Not sure if the two are related but hey presto there were two incisors that appeared yesterday. The fever broke a few days ago and she has been much better again but oh lord the sleeping. The naps during daytime and waking up constantly in the night were bad but now she won't even go to sleep at night. I think her rhythm has been completely thrown by the clocks going forward and the fever.

We also had her in bed with us when she was ill and we also seem to have regressed back to a feed in the middle of the night. But DH and I were so desperate we would do anything just to get her back to sleep so we could have a couple more hours. She is wide wide awake around 2am which is a first. Tonight has been the final breaking back of straw moment as she has been rubbing eyes, wiggling round tired and all the rest and refusing to sleep. DH has been in there for 2 hours with her already. She only had three lots of half hour naps today so I just don't understand what has happened as she should be knackered.

I can feel my MH conditions getting worse (I was diagnosed with PTSD on top of my bipolar and BPD last week oh yay) due to the lack of sleep and I'm getting dangerously obsessed with routine, weaning and sleep. The former two are not here obviously but my anxiety levels around all of them are soaring. It's not easy is it trying to remain calm when you have a wailing sleep resisting baby :(

DH has taken over nights again for a bit so I can sleep but it's not really a long term solution is it as then he's exhausted and has to work. Sorry that is a real ranty post, not sure that there is an answer really - I just needed to vent.

Did anyone find having quiet time before bed away from screens etc help? Or that being in front of a screen too long was bad? She likes Peppa and Little Baby Bum, the TV is almost always on in the background (we currently stay with PILs who watch endless rounds of crappy shows) and DH and I argue over how much screen time is good or bad (I prefer less) but there seems to be conflicting information on it. DD has just turned 10 months.

Thanks very much and I hope you are all asleep right now :)

Hi living - I'm reluctant to say too much, because I don't want to exacerbate any of your anxieties about anything, but I would say that she shouldn't really be getting any screen time at all, and especially not in the hour before bed. I don't know off the top of my head what the NHS says about screen time, but I did read recently that the American Paediatric Academy recommends no screens/TV at all before the age of two. TBH, they really don't understand it before then. She might 'like' the colours of Peppa, but that's about it. She'd like the same colours in a book, and that would definitely be more advisable at her age.

Also - 'she only had three lots of half-hour naps today so she should be knackered'. No, sadly. The opposite is true. The worse naps are during the day, the worse they will settle at bedtime and sleep during the night. Insufficient daytime sleep leads to higher cortisol (stress) levels, which makes it harder to wind down to fall asleep and then stay asleep. Whenever DS2 has shit naps, like on nursery days, I feel an impending sense of doom because I know the evening and night are going to suffer terribly.

If only they could come with a 'sleep' setting like laptops, eh?

Hi living, I second Elph's wise words about naps! From what you describe (the wriggling,eye-rubbing, refusing to go to sleep) she sounds overtired - which always has the effect of making my two almost wired and completely unable to settle to sleep. I also find they wake more in the night and its harder to resettle them. Sleep breeds sleep in my experience!

I also agree with the screen time too I'm afraid although I can't say my two never have any - although I try and avoid any after tea. OH is terrible for sticking the telly on straight after tea which drives me up the wall!

Ideally, a bit of fresh air after tea or quietish play (mine never manage anything that quiet!) then bath and bedtime routine.

I hope you manage to get some rest while DH takes over for a bit.

Yes - I will qualify my above post by hanging my head in shame and admitting that both of mine are baby-sat by Thomas the Tank Engine/Bob/Sam/Peppa in the morning so DH and I can get ourselves together quickly and/or so they can be used for bribery purposes to get DS1 dressed. I do try and keep DS2 (8mo) distracted or in another room, though, and when DS1 was the same age, he got no TV at all until he was well over a year and I realised its power

Chocolate I also infuriate DH with my post-5pm TV embargo. My Inner Sleep Bore shows its teeth