the no-cry sleep solution

[iris66]

has anyone tried it? (book by Elizabeth Pantley) I'm on day 2 & looking for a bit of support as I know it's going to take time. I'm dying through sleep depravation with 8mth DS who bfs to sleep but is very very tricky to move so have been cosleeping whilst he fidgets & kicks all night(and power naps during the day)
Think this is the last chance saloon before ear plugs & leaving him to get hysterical (even though I know that won't happen - i just couldn't, he really does do the whole temper, then sad then hysteria/shaking/terror/I've been abandoned thing - even if DH goes to him - such a mummy's boy)
Anyway, please post if you've been successful with this [hopeful emoticon]

Hi Maz, it's a book by E. Pantley, involves v. gentle ways of forming good sleep habits. Results take time but it looks to be worth it.

Well I jinxed myself didn't I. Ds woke - only once - but stayed awake for about 2 hours, I despaired of getting him back to sleep. He sucked finger - no joy. Had a bottle - no joy, He wasn't unhappy, just wide awake. In the end I thought I'd better change nappy, so put him down and went to bathroom for water. Came back - fast asleep!

Moljam, we use cloth too and I don't notice any difference in sleep from the nights he is in disposables.

Difers, hope the move is well underway and you're surviving!
Fluffy animal, sorry your success didn't last. The cold is waning but DD's sleep unaffected, still up every three hours. We've hit a plateau.
Bikebug, I know what you meanabout paying for healthcare but if it works this whole thread will be following suit! I really hope it works for you, you sound knackered and in need of something lovely to cheer you up ((hugs))
Moljam - HOLIDAY??? FRANCE??? I'm speechless, you must be a lovely partner, I moan if DP goes to the supermarket never mind on holiday!
TFIF maybe get a break this weekend, DP promised to do a nightshift.... I wonder if he'll back out?

Probably a bit of a fraud as dd is sleeping much better now...fingers crossed, touch wood etc before I jinx it.

Things I found made a real difference:

• waking her for a feed at 7am, no matter what. Was a killer at first, but really helps establish a routine for the day and makes naps much more predictable.
• putting her in her cot while still happy, but shortly before I know she's going to need a sleep. I reckon she can happily stay awake 1.5 hours after she first wakes at 7, so put her in her cot as long after 8-30 as I dare. She's starting to settle herself at 9am this way. Next nap is 12-30 or 1pm ish.

OK, so we still can't get her to settle herself at night as she does get utterly exhausted, but that's my next goal.

Oh, and having been through a phase of her waking up for a 2 hour play during the night and utterly refusing to settle unless bfts when she finally got knackered, I've found a few occasions she's happy to play in her cot once I've topped her tummy up, turned the light to absolute minimum and gone back to sleep myself.

You all probably hate me, but just wanted to say hang in there! Routine appears to be the trick for us.

This is second time round - went through similar things with ds. He finally slept much better at 11mths when he weaned himself off bf. Suddenly there was nothing to wake up for. From day one he slept through. My sister had a similar experience with her 15 mth dd. I didn't chose to stop bf, ds did, and it had always been my sole way of getting him back to sleep at night. Have not had problems since.

What a ramble, but after a good night's sleep I wanted to share my optimism.

t&g, all optimism is welcome here .

Well, I can tell you all now that cranial osteopathy hasn't been a miracle cure for us . After our promising afternoon, DS woke up about 3 times in the evening and again at 12.30, 1.45 and 4.45, then up for the day at 7. The only difference I've noticed is that he was happy to play on his tummy earlier in the day (he really doesn't like tummy time).

Like you moljam I keep looking for reasons. He def. has a lot of wind which I think causes him pain, that might wake him. I almost lost my temper with him this morning. In fact I shouted at him . I had to put him in his cot and walk away, I felt so angry because he wouldn't stop screaming unless I picked him up, and then he was absolutely fine. And I am just sooooo tired. Anyway, he's napping now, and I'm going to try the early wake up then back to sleep thing in a few minutes.

Keep going everyone, it must be OK in the end.

And happy moving Difers, hope it is all going well!

I haven't started yet. DP is out on his bike so I'm sitting here with a nice cup of tea in a calm before the storm sort of way,

Welcome to all new ones, especially from afar a field as OZ!

Moljam, Agree with others - My friend Laura went through the "is it cloth" thing and so I did I, No it doesn't make any difference, save yourself the cost of a pack of huggies!

Bikebug, I hope the nap thing works this morning, having an hour to chill in the morning really helps that end of your tether angry at baby feeling!!! It must be VERY hard without much help. Big hugs XXXXXXXXXXXX

OooooHHH..I sent the link for this thread to Elizabeth Pantley and she e-mailed this message back, which I hope she won't mind me sharing with you all:-

Hi Diane,
How wonderful to know that you are all working together. Support is so very very important and since we all are so much alike it is important that we bond together. I'm sending some HUGS to everyone in your group with wishes for lots of sweet dreams!
Hugs,
Elizabeth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elizabeth Pantley, Author
www.pantley.com/elizabeth

We had a grand total of 4 hours kip last night, in half hour stretches. This morning DH & DD are drowning in a sea of snot (but not me - hurrah!).

So Moljam, you off to the Bahamas for a week then, when your DH comes back from France all rested and takes over??

Exciting day today Difers! I hope all goes well and your lo settles ok tonight. DD plays HELL if we go to bed somewhere new.

Bikebug. You're right, it can only get better (can't it??). It's disappointing about the cranial osteopathy - I think we all had our fingers poised over the 'phone, ready to make an appointment.

We all use cloth nappies! Here's another thought - everyone who posts on this thead has a baby who won't sleep. Perhaps we should stop posting...

Hey, that's really cool! Thanks Difers. A shame she didn't offer to come over and baby-sit

Hi MAZ,
I have 5 week old DD and am not so much bothered about a routine but am wanting to be able to put DD down for sleeps (although i suppose it goes hand in hand). Currently she falls asleep when BF or on my chest, in car etc but always wakes on transfer to moses basket. The night is a mix of her on my chest while i sleep on sofa, in the bed next to me, or occasionally in moses basket. i have bought the NCSS book but havent started and am just up to reading about how we sleep. Someone suggested a grobag which i might try although no idea when to put her in it (before or after feeding or to try putting her down in it when awake). Ive also realised that sometimes she needs a little 'prompting' in the day to wake up if shes been asleep too long ie when i go out and about in the car shopping and stuff she will sleep whole time but then i pay for it at night big time. Just thought id mention that i live in Staffs so if anyone in this thread does then be happy to meet up maybe??? Speak soon everyone to let you know how things are going but as Maz said its comforting to read messages and share ideas.

wow elizabeth pantley may have read this thread!hello mrs pantley!
differs sorry to here cranial thing didnt work,i too was ready to phone and make appointment.
thanks for advice on nappies everyone,its the fact hes waking soaked(which he never did till recently)i think i need to change my night nappy,we currently use terry boosted with terrypads and either fleece or wool wrap.ive been recommended minki boosted with hemp,either that or change him in night!dont want to do that!.
dwb,nah i went to london for weekend,im happy with that!
t and g,its great to hear your sleeping,any secrets?

Well I've just bought the NSSS book and have read it cover to cover. Can't decide whether to do the log at the weekend - my DH has a problem with routine so weekends are always different to the week days - or wait till Monday. DH is desperate for a good nights sleep (I haven't the heart to tell him that this is unlikely to happen yet - ds1 is only just 4 months old). I just hate the crying. DS1 struggles to go to sleep anywhere. He cries before sleeping in his pram, in the car, in the bouncy chair, in his carry cot, in my arms, when rocked.... The only way to get him to sleep without crying is by feeding him but that does not always work in the day. He dozes on the breast but then wakes up.

Well fingers crossed we have some success... although it does sound like it is a long process. Hope DH can cope that long....

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh am sooooooooooo embarassed that the actual Mrs Pantley may read our thread & witness my sleep depraved vileness [blush
However, I'm sure she'll understand how sleplessness sends you doolally and not view me too harshly [hopeful emoticon]

Bikebug - so sorry the cranial osteopathy didn't yield the immediate results you (and we) hoped. I very nearly posted that many complementary therapies do take at least 3 sessions to show a solid change but didn't want you to lose heart

moljam - oooh I do feel for you. hope you have lots of support whilst he's away. PS you are mad looking after other children and not napping!!!!

tiredandgrumpy - you have a very good point on the routines front. DS is so much better when I clockwatch his naps (I'm just not very good at it - I'm starting to think that it's a case of "if I really wanted him to sleep better I'd do this properly" )

MAZinOZ - Hi and welcome At some point people will drop off the thread because their LOs are sleeping through.

hayles - the book has some wonderful ideas and is definately worth a read. As for the waking on transfer.. grobag & shushing worked for me (shushing whilst feeding then continue the shushing whilst transferring to cot) but there are other methods in the book that may work better for you.

DS was agog with seeing his first fireworks tonight (we watched through a bedroom window & he stayed up 1/2 hour later than normal) He went down well but naps were all over the show today (he just wouldn't go to sleep!) so we'll see what the night brings. I should add that nights overall are loads better. He generally only wakes 3 times now and is getting a good 11 hours a night (pretty good huh?! ) we're getting there girls!

Trick has been to spot when dd is approaching need for sleep. She hides it well, so I'm helped by clockwatching. Last night we went back to old habits, so not out of the woods yet.

ds used to wake upon being put back in his cot at night until I spotted this was because the moses basket had got cold whilst I was feeding him. I got over it by wrapping him in a blanket whilst I fed, then moving the whole bundle back into the basket when I put him in so he never went onto a cold sheet. Putting him in a grobag to sleep would eliminate this anyway, but have heard of some people using a hot water bottle to take the edge off the cold too (although how on earth do you make one up in the middle of the night whiilst you're dealing with crying baby?).

Off away now for a few days, so any good habits we have will be well and truly gone when we get back. Suppose they say a change is as good as a rest.

lori,personally what worked for me was starting on a sunday night as having 2 older children were more organised in week.also i find it hard putting ds down for nap when theyre about!as for weekends being different to weekdays,i think you may have to(atleast for few weeks)make the weekend routine more like weekday routine so lo doesnt get confused.
bikebug,in light of what iris has said re.at least 3 sessions,are you going to try again?
iris,wow at being a holistic therapist!do you use any of the therapys at home to help your lo sleep?we use massage but would love to find out about anyother alternative therapys that may help!
yesterday was another not good one!no morning nap ,but i decided at 10.30 to go shopping,it got to lunch time so we went to find somewhere to eat,but he fell asleep in sling,so later nap than usual,then no afternoon nap went to bed fine at 7 but up from 11 every hour onwards!then up for day at 5.30.which i wouldnt mind if id had more sleep in night!i was naughty and didnt give him his bath before bed as i was feeling lazy nd dh came back just as we start night routine.maybe i can blame that for last night!ive still got 6 days i think before i fill in log again,im wondering what if anything may have changed!i know patience ,patience,patience but .....

Bikebug, I hope you are not giving yourself a hard time about being cross. One wee blip in months of supportive, calm, lovingness is nothing to get your knickers in a knot about. I'm really sorry that the treatment didn't yield miracles (yet) too.
Mrs Pantley WOW! I was glad I hadn't posted any cheeky messages about the programme in my moments of dementedness at how long this is taking to move toward full nights of sleep. I felt quite touched by her message of support, thanks for forwarding it!
DWB only 4 hours, you poor soul, lots of naps yesterday and more sleep last night I hope. Iris well done I think you've made a breakthrough with only 3 wakings a night. You've given me some inspiration.
I can't belive I'm typing this but I think I need to go back to the log thingie again, I feel I've lost my way. Advice re set times and routines was v. helpful as I'm awful at sticking to the same times every day (and night). DD STILL needs fed back to sleep during the night and although the removal technique has had some success DD doesn't seem able to do without bf for comfort. She's over 1 now so I know she doesn't need the food!!! My head hurts from thinking about this so much

Thanks for the advice about weekends. I realised that there is little point in starting yet as my poor lo has his 4 month jabs on Monday. Poor thing has to have three 'cos he is on the new routine. He always reacts to the jabs so I'll give him a day or two before trying to get a proper routine. One the big problems we are having at the moment is that he is waking up at 4am and not really going back to sleep, even with breastfeeding.

Here's hoping for a better nights sleep for everyone......

hi all, I hope the fireworks aren't disturbing everyone's precious sleep! Big hello to everyone I haven't spoken to yet, and hayles I think grobags are brilliant too. That and warming the cot sheets with a hot water bottle really helped DS and his moses basket. Momomama & Difers, thanks for your kind thoughts. I'm not too mad at myself, but it's scary to get that angry and I wish I hadn't done. Iris, thanks for the 3 sessions comment about the cranial osteopathy - it's what the therapist said too, but 3 sessions = £120 (gulp), so I was unkindly suspicious... But, and I'm trying not to count any unhatched chickens here, last night was pretty good. I mean, he woke up (don't get me wrong!), but not shrieking and pained, just woke up. And this morning he woke up smiling . Usually he starts crying before opening his eyes. And yesterdays naps were brilliant, and this evening he is out like a light for over an hour now (usually it is 35 minutes). So I'm def. going back for my second session. Maybe it's just taking a while to kick in?

Jabberwocky - how did you attempt to stop giving milk to your lo in the middle of the night. I am at the end of my tether. ds is 2yo and wakes at 12.3 and 5.30 every night and the only thing in this world to get him back to sleep if a bottle of milk. I have tried everything else, even ignoring him screaming for 2 hours and going in to re settle- nothing works and it is driving me a partner apart. Life is miserable. He has never slept thru the night. Got to be my fault i know x

morning all

finally got DS to sleep at 8.30 (fireworks & very awake in the evening due to a late nap at 4.30) then he only woke briefly at 1.15, 6 then up for the day at 7.15 this morning. Yay!!!!!!!!! it's working Though how much of this is the fact that I'm not going to him I don't know. It'll be a good test this week as DH goes away tomorrow for 4 nights.

moljam - DS gets regular reflexology, massage & reiki, and he's a very chilled and happy boy, but these clearly have no impact on keeping him asleep

shatteredmumsrus - It's not your fault!!!!!!!!!!!! (unless you're going in and waking him!!)The NCSS book has a big chapter on toddlers and older children which may help. Have you tried just giving water and/or getting your DP to go to him (apologies if you've already tried this).

Bikebug - I'd definately take DS back for more sessions - sounds like something has definately improved for him!

Lori21 - good luck with the jabs. No advice about the early waking really apart from have you tried pretending to be asleep & keeping everything really dark & quiet?

momomama - I'll be doing the log this week but may yet eat my words with Dh away as I only seem able to settle him without bf during the day (and that usually involves a walk in the pram).

Hope everyone else is doing well sweetkitty hope you are doing ok good luck for long naps today all

lori,hope jabs go ok.poor baby!
this morning i think i may be caving in.i reached for baby whisperer book.i m on the edge of giving up cosleeping as none of us are sleeping,so surely thats not a good thing.i knew when i started(or before i started thanks to you lot!) the ncss that it wasnt quick fix but im losing faith that we'll ever sleep!i feel bad moaning on here as i know none of us are sleeping else we wouldnt be posting!i will keep going with ncss for now as i know its to soon but arrrrgggghhhh!
sorry rant over.for today

thanks iris. i have tried the water thing but he hurls the bottle accross the room as soon as he realises. I may try watering down the milk and see if that has any affect. Partner tried once or twice i think(hmm i know) but no diffeence but he has said that he will try again as of tonight. Not sure whether to do this or the watering down milk thing????

Well, it's still a house of snot here. Poor DH and DD are leaking from nearly every orifice.(Still not me!) My DD seems to be the only child on the planet that Calpol has no effect upon whatsoever. (Any tips on getting the stuff into her?). I think she may also be teething. No sleep for the forseeable future then!

Sleep logs and any attempt at 'routine' have gone out of the window whilst I lovingly wipe away green slime (am truly Florence Nightingale - wonder how much sleep she got?).

Where are all those lovely anti-bodies I'm supposed to be making and passing over to DD?? Probably gone for a cup of tea and a nap.

Moljam, you sound so down . Have you read the chapter at the back of the book 'When Nothing Else Works'? I think it was Bikebug who pointed me in that direction when I was feeling like you a couple of weeks ago. If nothing else it helped me re-focus.

Iris, you seem to have spotted the light at the end of the tunnel and be running towards it . I hope it's downhill all the way!

hi everyone sorry I have been missing for a while we changed ISPs then got a virus and I haven't been able to get online for nearly 3 whole weeks!!! Been quickly reading everyones trials and tribulations. It seems we are all getting some success surely but slowly I think.

Well we have been following the actual plan for 10 days now (about to do my first 10 day log) except I am always so tired in the middle of the night I forget to pull her off as I'm usually fast asleep. Would say we probably have 2 wakenings in the night, some nights she has been going 7.30pm to 1-2am which is a good stretch. Other nights she's up an hour after we put her down but I can usually settle her with a cuddle and back pat. Daytime naps are still a bit hit and miss I cannot do the resettle her immediately thing as I have 2.4yo DD1 to contend with. (DD1 who has always been an excellent sleeper I hasten to add).

I am following the routine/lovey/dim room thing though but I don't know if it is working, am thinking of going cold turkey with the nightfeeds (am always thinking of it never actually do it) not withdrawing me just the feeds.

Sorry am rambling will catch up again later.

moljam - moan away! that's what the thread's for!! The "when nothing else works" tip helped me hugely too (I got DH to read it - after much grumping) I didn't want to stop co-sleeping as I love waking up with DS but it had just become impossible to get any sleep & I hated DH not being there too.
I couldn't not bf DS back to sleep whilst he was in with me (no staying power) and so it seemed better to just try to get him to stay longer in his cot instead as he always starts the night there. DH has been a star (and I so needed the break) but who knows how I'll fare this week doing it myself again! DS still comes in for a snuggle & bf in the morning which is lovely. I'm going to do a log from today.

shatteredmumsrus - I'd be inclined not to give anything. As you said, he's not hungry. If he doesn't want the water he's not thirsty either. Sounds like he's doing what many of ours do ie needs to suck to get to sleep and is used to milk. It's a horrible association to break. Does he have a cuddly toy for bed?

danceswithbaby - don't worry I'll let you all know before I go clip clopping off in my high heels & slap am metaphorically staying in flip flops & yesterdays smudged mascara for the foreseeable

Yay!!!! welcome back sweetkitty so glad you got the PC sorted.