Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Poppy - sounds amazing! We used Andrea Grace and, although she was good, there were more tears involved than I'd have liked.

Peregrin, I have nearly dislocated my shoulder patting myself on the back for getting DS2 to fall asleep in his cot, both in our room in the co-sleeper and in what will eventually be his cot in his room, even just for some naps. It has taken hours and hours and weeks and weeks of kneeling or lying in a pitch-black room without so much as my iPhone to break the monotony in case its light tampers with his melatonin levels. And I have achieved it without any crying or distress on his part plenty on mine

But to what fucking end, I ask you?! He still wakes up hourly at night and refuses to nap for longer than 40 minutes when he's in the bloody things. Unless I need to be somewhere urgently like last week when he slept for an hour and twenty five minutes

Transferring from sling to hammock-thingy wouldn't work as the mere act of loosening the sling wakes him completely.

At least now I'm even more entitled to smack smug parents of smug sleepers in their smug faces if they even try and suggest his shitty sleep is my fault.

^^ (bitter)

Hello, fuzzy. Hang about long enough and we might be able to give you an intro to Ann and bypass the web form. A few of us have had her miracles worked on our DCs now. My newest is lined up and ready once he's the right age, I assure you.

[Waves glumly at Poppy]

peregrine if it makes you feel better my dd is over 2.5 now and despite a brief period of being able to stand outside her room while she went to sleep we have regressed big style to her falling asleep on my lap. Aarrggh! The only thing that keeps me going is that she is doing OK once asleep. She wakes up around 1am, comes into our bed and goes straight to sleep again.

Hear it very much does not make me feel better!

I forgot by the way that DS did manage to fall asleep in his cot twice, after we finished the programme. Such is the fickleness of my human nature. Will never happen again by the look of it so that is ok.

fuzzy we have only used Ann and there were more tears involved than I would have liked. Many, many more, hysterical tears. She was at pains to point out in our first chat that she does not guarantee a no cry method, and explained why the crying in her method is not like CC, and I was fine with that up to a point. Obviously your cherub will be one of the 24 hour miracles and this will not be relevant to you, I am only posting this because everyone else's experience on this thread involved fewer tears than they expected, and I had somehow assumed it will be the same for us.

I should also add that we have still had some lasting improvements (please God let it be so) in that we no longer have to walk with him to make him fall asleep, sitting in the rocking chair is fine. That is huge.

DS has just woken for the third time and it is not yet 10 pm. F it.

Oh no, Peregrin - now I'm worried. I can't handle my baby crying hysterically. I've seen it occasionally and it just breaks my heart. Maybe Ann isn't a good idea for us... :-/

Thing is, there is no such thing as sleep training without tears or crying or rage at some level. There just isn't, which is why Ann, and any other decent sleep consultant, does not and cannot guarantee no-cry. You're undoing sleep associations and changing routine which always upsets a small person, so you do have to enter into it accepting that you're going to get crying and grit your teeth against it quite a bit. If you don't want crying at all, or can't tolerate it beyond a very small amount, then riding the mo fo out is really your only option. DS1 did cry a lot less than I expected, but there was still several episodes of considerable rage that I had to deal with during the process, but because it was entirely supported, my conscience is clear, unlike the hideous CC and CIO I had subjected him to, more than once, in desperation, which only ever made him worse. That, I will definitely never do with DS2.

I suppose so. At least it doesn't sound as bad as the CC version, I guess! Will see what she says.

Peregrin, thanks for the offer of an intro but we're just about ok now thanks to the sleep training we did with Andrea Grace. DD2 had some serious meltdowns along the way but now can self-settle for naps although still needs me nearby for night-time sleeps. It's all up and down - I'm feeding her in the night at the mo because she's poorly and early mornings are killing me but hey, some unbroken sleep and evenings to myself are much appreciated.

I sort of feel like maybe I should do something about dd's sleep again, but I just have too much else going on. Started new job today, learning to drive, doing an online qualification for work, and my mum is really ill with cancer (of the terminal sort). Sorting out dd's sleep just seems too much to add to the list. I am therefore riding the mo fo out until I have a bit more energy for it. Maybe she'll just work it out on her own [blindly optimistic face]

Oh Hear ((((hear))) So sorry to hear about your mum. Wishing you strength for it all. (Sleep, Hear'sDD, sleep!)

Oh Hear Sod the sleep. It sounds entirely tolerable ATM, if she's only waking up once to get in your bed and you'll probably want to keep her close at this sad time.

I think there is a bit of that actually elph, part of me likes having a snuggle with her still at the moment. Getting her to sleep through just feels less important as well to be honest.

My dm has had cancer for a few years now but is now in a wheelchair and coming up to the final stages. I'm hoping she will make it into the new year as I would love to have a last Christmas with her and dad together.

Well, that's everyone good and depressed for the evening! :)

Hear I'm so sorry, I'll be thinking of you and your family.

You're absolutely right, as long as it's manageable for you, it doesn't matter. Hope you take comfort in those night snuggles with DD.

Oh, DS1

I think the honeymoon period is over. He adores DS2, he really does. Drops anything and everything to give him a cuddle, always asks where he is, loves washing him in the bath etc etc. But I think he's just starting to realise he's not top-dog anymore. He's gone into overdrive with comfort items and is very clingy, resulting in some hellish nursery drop-offs, and refusal to eat meals anywhere but DH's lap (connection: DS2 is virtually always in my lap during meals). Especially fun for me is he's decided that if he wakes in the night (he's on around one brief wake-up a night these days) it has to be me or scream the house down. And he's started ignoring the GroClock. Twice in three weeks we've relented and brought him into bed for a cuddle around 5:30 or 6 (which we always do anyway once his clock changes). He was up at 5:50 this morning wanting up so I took a stand and 20 minutes of rage ensued. I hope to Christ he got the idea just from this morning because I feel like shit doing that to him at the moment, but I can't have two of them not sleeping.

In DS2 news, swaddling is making me lose the fucking plot. It is really effective, but he's such a brute he breaks out of it in no time and wakes himself up. I try and reswaddle after every feed at night so that he goes back in to his cot slightly awake, but I think in my sleepy stupor I just do a shit job of the swaddle, it's too loose and he's escaped within the hour. I've tried releasing one arm to see if I can wean him off it, but he's still better with it on. I really don't want to buy one of those proper swaddling arrangements as he won't be using it for longer than a couple of months.

And at 13 weeks, it's probably only three more weeks until all hell breaks loose with the bastard sleep regression...should I make up the front bedroom bed for co-sleeping damage control or just shoot myself now?

Hello folks, sorry for the total disappearing act! Life has just been a bit too much lately between work/DDs/house and I just haven't had the energy to even lurk, let alone post!

Elph, you have my sympathies, we're now at nearly 10 months with DD2 who now usually self-settles with a dummy but I'm ignoring that bit as she can put it in herself for naps and bedtime but is still up regularly all bloody night. Not sure if its teething? separation anxiety? 9 month regression? (ha, there hasn't been much to regress from frankly!). She recently had a cold for three weeks which meant hourly wake ups and having to feed her back to sleep and I think that might have torn it well and truly as we were pretty much down to one or two night feeds. The last two nights she has pretty much wanted to sleep firmly attached to the boob and nowhere else with much shrieking whenever I attempted to remove her to her own bed. Sigh...

On a more positive note, DD1 has been a bit of a superstar, even with all the bloody racket that DD2 has been making. She's seemed very tired the last couple of days so I'm sure it must disturb her too but she hasn't called for me once, bless her!

Not sure what we are going to do, I keep thinking I need to Do Something, but we haven't moved her out of her room yet as she will have to go into the spare room for a bit before the planned eventual sharing with her big sis. There is no way sharing can happen at the moment! And we've got my Dad coming to stay for Christmas so it would mean moving her out and then back in again. And I'm just not sure I'm ready for even less sleep than I'm currently getting...

Hear, I'm so sorry to read about your DM - you are right not to worry about your DD's sleep, it will come good eventually and night-time snuggles are rather lovely (as long as they're not taking up the entire bed...)

PS Elph, I swore by my swaddle ups with DD2, there was no busting out of that bad boy! And I liked that she could still get her hands to her face. I've lent one to a friend but if you want to PM me your address I could send you one?

Ooh, that's very kind Chocolate but it's the hands to the face that are the problem. He works his hands up to his mouth, starts slurping noisily and ineffectually at his fingers then starts grizzling that they haven't magically turned into boobs or dummies. I confess I've actually tried inserting a thumb or finger into his mouth to encourage sucking and therefore fucking sleep but he's just not interested.

Hmm I see the issue! What about eBay for non-hands-up version of a straightjacket cosy swaddle?

Hello everyone. How are we all. We went to stay at the DMIL's over the weekend. The first night was absolute hell, the second she slept amazingly. Unfortunately I had a stomach bug and so spent the second night in the spare, spare room curled up in crampy agony. Still, we survived!

Any luck finding a good swaddle yet Elph?

Please may I join? I seem to spend my life going from Ride It Out to Something Must Be Done. So I figure that doing nothing and moaning about it must be the next logical step.

Hello Toby love a good Toblerone myself too Yes. The first step is absolutely to get comfortable and have a good whinge here.

I've popped in to say that overall good sleep is continuing. Except last night. DH escaped on a course. I had all 3 dc and of course a tummy bug hit so I spent exactly 2.5 hours in bed and feel suitably sparkly today. As you were...

Ugh. Tummy bugs are the devil.

Hear that's always the case, when you get a chance to sleep well something nasty happens.

Welcome Toblerone; whinge away. This is right place for it. No faux-brave-smile-soldiering on here. I think we reserve the right to be sleep deprived and pissed off about it.

Dreaming hope your clan is feeling better (and I hope I have long lasting success like you).

DS is 1 year old tomorrow and last night, thanks to the angel that is Ann slept through for the FIRST TIME EVER!

I don't know if he'll ever do it again and DD (the original sleep horror) started waking up again, but today I celebrate and drink to Ann

I think I might get a T-shirt made with 'I reserve the right to be sleep deprived and pissed of about it' written on it :o

Dd was exhausted today after weekend away and then 3 days of nursery. She had a full on, no holds barred screaming rage fest on the bus home. I had to apologise to a bus load of remarkably lovely people who didn't even tut or look annoyed once about the banshee apparently invading their commute.

She then passed out by 7pm. Bless her.

Wow, congratulations Poppy! Well jel!