Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Blimy dreaming, I think we got the correction :o

Dd has gone to pot since I went away for a few days and then dh went away for a few days a week later. We are back to sitting in her room and starting the gradual retreat all over. I think this might be the second rule of no sleep club: 'never, ever go away'!

Hello ladies,how are you all doing?I'm sorry I'm slipping off the thread,I miss you a lot but hardly have the time for the internet.

I had to wean myself off the phone as my eyesight started to get a bit funny and I can't go onto laptop during the day as DS1 wants to bash play with it so I'm not able to even keep up with the thread.

DS1 started to drop his nap and he's super bouncy-he's a lovely boy but I cheer every time he goes to bed and then I collapse on the chair exhausted.

Everything's fine here,DS2 is a wee chunk and he's already in 3-6mths clothes.

I'm permanently knackered and find it very hard sometimes but hey ho-I wanted another baybeee.

Take care everybody,will keep lurking if I can x

I think the original non-sleepers are in cahoots Dreaming and Hear. DH had to co-sleep with DS1 last night - first time since Ann fixed him - as he was awake and screaming every 10 minutes, half an hour after he'd gone to bed. He's brought all of us colds home from nursery, so I think it's because he was feeling crap, but will he let us get Calpol into him? Will he heck. He will go back to sleeping in his own bed tonight...he will...

DS2 had a two hour screamathon around 2am as well, so I feel A-MAZ-ING this morning.

Hiya Bald Yes, we can't really complain too loudly when we've voluntarily got ourselves into this pickle.

Oh wow! my phone crashed posting the last comment but I didn't expect it to do it that Sorry guys!

elph dd and dt2 are sharing a room.room . and dt1 is in a twin room here so I am sleeping in the other bed with him and he's waking up so many times and won't let me leave . Oh god, please let him sleep in his own room when we get home. ..

DD up 4 times before moulding and dt1 picked up the baton from there last night. plus nowhere to plug in his light for morning in the room so tried repeatedly to get up at 5:20. Staved him off til 6 but yawn. Thank goodness no 2 hour screamathon. But I don't have a new born and surely should be getting some. sleep by now!!!

OK, never go away... although funnily enough, DS had his best-ever sleep when we were staying with my parents in August. Then it got even worse when we were back home, of course.

Had a horrible, horrible night - almost three hours of rocking, rocking and shushing at one stage. Mercifully DS fell asleep for an hour just before six so we got a little more sleep, but I'm still wrecked.

We had a few nights when he woke up every twenty minutes, so I was hoping that was the worst of the 9 month sleep regression done with, but oh no...

I'm almost hoping for DS to have an allergy at this stage so there would be something we could do, but other than a tendency for reddish skin in his face after eating kiwi and tomatoes he's got no symptoms whatsoever...

Maybe he just doesn't like to sleep, or something. I'm not bitter

Good luck to the rest of you, I'm so impressed by those of you with the stamina for new babies! Surely they'll come out of the fourth trimester as champion sleepers - there must be some justice in the world!

Saw the lactation consultant yesterday. She said:

• cut dairy
• do suck training

The NHS has nothing on Mumsnet.

She also thinks DS2 probably does have mild reflux, so I'll stamp my feet for Ranitidine at his six week check.

DS1 went back to his own bed with no problems, thank God, and has resumed champion sleeper status. Just as well since DS2 still has yet to crack more than two hours in one go

I am going to write a letter to the lactation consultant I saw I think. I saw her 2 or 3 times. always at the end of my tether. projectile vomiting for both. as in they could hit the wall of the kitchen from a meter away. Intermittent up the back greenish nappies but not constant. No sleep. Unsettled babies with long periods of crying. Wouldn't be put down. I specifically asked if I should cut dairy at 8 weeks and about reflux and nd was told no to both. Mostly as my babies were both gaining weight really well. I feel the urge to inform her!! Not sure she'd love it. She was helpful with latches etc and very reassuring. Too reassuring. Definitely made me think I was overreacting and slowed diagnosis hugely.

Good luck with ds2! I was told you want domperidone with ranitidine as both sphincters tend to be affected by reflux- the vomiting end and the stomach emptying into the bowel end.

A better night last night even on holiday. dt1 had run himself into the ground though. He literally ran all day. Slept til 4:45!!!! then I went in the other twin bed and he slept til nearly 7

Only one small poo from DS2 overnight.

Praying it's a coincidence and not this hellish diet...

Uh oh elph Yeah, sheer coincidence, of course. ...

You sound so convinced Dreaming...

All I can think about is a double shot espresso mocha from a nearby cafe that they serve with lashings of whipped cream and mini chunks of dark chocolate...

Commiserations elph. Are you soya free as well as no dairy?

I think we have dd's penultimate tooth coming through. Snot, high temperature, random crying, crap sleep, all the signs are there. I swear I shall hold some sort of celebration with a special 'yay! No more teething' banner when dd finally gets the last tooth over with. I may have mentioned this once or twice before, but I really, really, fucking hate teething!

scandichick I have nothing for you but commiserations. That sort of stuff is not amusing even from a newborn. I don't remember if you have done an exclusion diet just for the main culprits like Elph is doing now / have ruled out silent reflux. Sorry for trotting out the basics again

Hear ooh, you are nearly there!

Dreaming hope sleep settles more quickly than last time on your return.

Elph that sucks about the exclusion diet, but as much as I love dairy I would give it up in a heart beat for decent sleep. Hopefully armed with all the knowledge you have now about reflux and food intolerances you can get it sorted quickly if that is the problem. Have you tried hemp milk? I find it the most creamy.

Am posting in stages as I catch up around breastfeeding and trying to get kids to go to sleep. Back soon.

I initially gave up dairy, eggs and soy, but while dairy and eggs are hard to give up because I'm greedy, soy is hard to give up because it's bloody everywhere, especially when you're veggie. So I've given up avoiding soy - it's impossible unless I take up residence in Holland and Barrett for incredibly expensive alternatives. I only have so much time/energy to prepare meals that everyone will eat while excluding everything I'm trying to exclude. Soy had to give.

On the plus side, Oreos are vegan and I've discovered that natural coconut yoghurt is very nice, especially with strawberries and honey. I'll give the hemp milk a try, thanks Stitch. I'm finding almond milk tolerable. Hazelnut went down the sink.

Still not convinced it's making any difference. The night pooing is only slightly abated. I'm still having to change him a few times a night as he has an awful nappy rash from continuous daytime pooing - it's like he has a steady leak. We've had a few green and frothy episodes as well. Two hourly feeds are ongoing at night as well, although I got him to take a bottle of EBM at his first wake up last night (a novel experience, since DS1 wouldn't entertain the things) and he must have taken a larger volume than when BFing as he stretched to just over three hours until the next feed. Maybe I can delegate a feed to DH for the first time ever...

Dreaming Did you ever start that new job you were worried about?

Peregrin How goes Ann's programme?

hello everyone I thinly I need to pull up a chair and have a listen to you all. dd is now 3.5!!!! and is requiring me to lie in her bed for up to two and a half hours every night to get to sleep. I've never git past this stage of gradual with drawl. shutting he door and leaving her to it resultant in her pulling out drawers chucking stuff about and generally not being too safe. while I sit outside the door holding the door handle closed.

I'm stuck for ideas and at the end of my tether

Found this site Elph that lists a lot of different vegan and no dairy products. Some might be US only, but I know some are available over here so there might be some new nice things to try on there.

Scandi that sounds awful, is he teething? Mine have all been terrible around the 9 month mark as they pushed through so many teeth in quick succession. Ds is just entering that phase, so not looking forward to it.

Hi Bald, the nap dropping is not good is it. Dd2 keeps threatening to go no nap. I keep persisting though because I would rather have an hour to get things done and her stay up a bit later than her be an emotional mess all afternoon.

Hear it will all be over soon!

Well shit sleep prevails here following back to back viruses and teething (all three children ) coinciding with the start of school. I am applying for jobs, DH is going to go back to being a SAHD and he can do the nights!

Crikey cheese Sounds like you need an Ann-tervention! (See what I did there, regulars? )

Does she stay asleep once she's off?

Thanks stitch I'll take a look.

hi elph I'm seriously considering Ann. dh made this face she wakes religiously about half two makes me carry her downstairs for a cup of hot milk and then either comes in to our before back in her own bit always with me airtight with her. how in general terms does Ann work? what sort of technique is it? I've had a look at the website but can't quite fathom it out !

sorry my typos are dreadfully I hate this phone with a passion!

Because of Ann's copyright, I can't go into details here, but it's gradual withdrawal preceded by several weeks of what she calls her 'emotional well being' approach. It totally makes sense and is incredibly effective. From what you're describing with your DD, it sounds right up Ann's alley (and, no, despite all appearances, I don't work on commission for her. She just worked a miracle with my non-sleeper and Dreaming's Terrible Twin has also shown marked improvements).

Ahhh she's not taking new clients at the moment . Right I am going to sit by her bed tonight and try gradual withdrawal. Help me girls how do i do this???

Dreaming's Terrible Twin is a bloody pain in the backside. I just wish he'd stop the fuss at bedtime. 4 months DT the T, 4 months It's. Been. The. Same. Get over it and just go the fuck to sleep springs to mind*

• disclaimer. compared to the pre -Ann-tervention it's a miracle. I am not lying there being half strangled with his arms round my neck. He is in his own bed in his own room. He just shouts for me repeatedly for about 20 odd minutes. it's annoying

He only woke once last night and dh settled him (again fairly miraculous in itself) But was exhausted after a short in car nap, post holiday etc. So I'll see what he does over the next few nights.

I got up with dt2 who was shouting me at 3 ish. I went in and he was sat up telling me he needed medicine. I suggested a sip of water instead. He agreed so I went down to get it. Come back up with his beaker. Tried to help him have some water- he's lying down by now. In a really confused voice he says "mummy, what you doing?" Erm, exactly what you asked for child. If I'd thought you actually meant bugger off back to bed yourself and don't worry about my water believe me I would have!

I dunno elph dairy free had minimal impact on my dt1 which is why I went back to dairy with him. He's equally as intolerant to soya though as he is to dairy. I don't think I could live on a vegan diet either. My principles or the bf would have to go! and they did, my 15 years vegetarianism went down the pan after dd's birth when I realised I was very anaemic post 3rd degree tear/PPH and was not going to take iron which I had before and knew constipated me on account of the former. My dad said if I ate a few meals with red meat it'd help my iron levels way more than broccoli as it's easier to absorb. I didn't want a blood transfusion and didn't want to feel so horrendous any more. Sadly I still haven't stopped eating meat! The dietician told me 30 to 40% of dairy intolerant babies are soy intolerant. I'm lucky dt2 isn't. But my dd pooed any lot as a baby, never slept more than 90 min to 2 hours til 3 months and was nothing wrong with her. I'll cross everything it's not intolerance and ignore all green frothy poo talk--

cheese I have also been Ann'ed so can't think what to post that won't affect her copyright. Except to say it doesn't have to be rapid. Very small changes are fine- such as moving by 1" further. Lots of explanation. Lots of reassurance. Good luck! (come on hear you're the gradual retreat self taught queen)

Oh and I mean explanation of what to expect, not lots of waffle at the time.

Hi cheese I did my own sort of gradual retreat with dd1. Started by getting her attached to toy rabbit and singing seahorse as part of her night routine when reading a story etc... Then would read story with her in bed and me sitting alongside. After that would play seahorse while she cuddled rabbit and I held her hand sitting by the side of the bed. This was progression from bfeed to sleep at 2 years old! Then I slowly moved a little way towards the door every few nights until I was sat in the doorway, then after a few nights more just outside doorway with it open, then gradually having the door more closed with me outside. After a few nights outside the door I would go downstairs and just pop her back in without talking if she hopped out (rarely).

Dreaming my older two have these by their bed as they are non-spill. Dd2 often wakes up like that. Last night she came bolting down the hallway crying so I picked her up and rocked her, she was asleep in 5.

well I told her I was going to sit next to the bed and she's asleep! 25 mins in -+-not that she was absolutely knackered anyway-+- without touching me for the first time in about a year! one inch more tomorrow! now all I jabs to do is get put of the tiny gap on the floor between her bed and bookcase