Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Great article for gormless midwives.

I saw that on various fb pages elph , you need to print it out and send it to her!

Still finding bedtimes hard and the 2 night wakings he keeps calling me.back for repeatedly. For the first time though I cracked this morning as when he woke I was in the deepest sleep- you know when you can't physically move for a bit you've been so fast asleep. i told him to low down til his light came on which he totally ignored and would have had the others and dh up too (or was his lie in morning) and when I went back I ended up getting in his bed for a cuddle. Argh, hope I don't manage to mess it all up at this late stage. ....! It is much better, I was just tired as I'd also got up for a wee and thought I heard a bang in dd room so went to check- generally disturbed night, not all his fault.

Hope you've all survived the weekend.
How're things going for you peregrin?

Yesterday's bedtime was amazing - I held DS in my arms and watched his eyelids getting heavier as he lay there calmly almost all the way through. He cried out only once, I shifted him around and he fell asleep as I sang to him. It felt like the apotheosis of motherhood. :)

I then got a good cold dose of reality this morning as I tried to hold him to sleep for his nap as well, all fired up by yesterday's success. He sobbed really hard until I gave in and walked him to sleep.

Tonight was cot settling night for the first time, which actually went better than the nap in that it involved less wailing. There was a lot of headbanging against the headboards until I padded them with pillows. DS lost it twice, I picked him up, and the second time kept my close embrace around him when I put him back until he fell asleep. Since we've just lowered the cot mattress as well and the rail is fixed, this involved quite a bit of acrobatics and a spasming leg by the end of it.

We are moving a bit fast I think but that's to make the most of my remaining time at home before I report back to the office. In all honesty I had hoped for fewer tears, but at least it's not the desperate wailing of abandonment (most of the time...)

Dreaming do I remember correctly that your programme with Ann is now over? DT the T's persistence will serve him well one day when he is all grown.

Stitch how old is your DD2? Do we want the tests to come out positive so you know what is causing her symptoms, or negative so you know it is all good?

One good bedtime is a start Peregrine. Dd2 is 2.5 and is still chatting away on the monitor from what I can hear ATM. If the tests come back negative then she will likely be looking at surgery to remove her tonsils and adenoids which I would rather avoid. I am pretty sure she is reacting to something and there is a strong family history of allergies.

Good article Elph, you should definitely give it to gormless midwife.

Dreaming you are only human and we all need sleep and a cuddle sometimes.

I'm 2 weeks into a 3 week stay at the in-laws and have not had a chance to read back all the messages, so forgive any remissness on that front.

But congrats to the Elph family on the new miniElph!

Sleeping is as hit-and-miss as ever at the in-laws... DS is in a travel cot here, and has discovered to his delight that since the sides are not solid, that he can throw himself about even more crazily than at home and not risk banging his head! Because of this, and the fact that travel cot is too low to bum-pat him to sleep we have reverted to rocking him to sleep for every nap and night waking. And it still takes at least 1 hour, sometimes 2 to convince him to go back to sleep at night. Quite often he seems to be in a deep sleep, only to start crying again 15mins later. Plus his new thing is now to wake up only 30mins to 1hr after bedtime, thereby eliminating any chance I had of actually eating dinner with the rest of the family. .

Part of the problem with rocking is that he is a hefty 7 month-old, and it sometimes takes 30mins of rocking, so I am now struggling to sleep myself due to the resulting backache.

I am on the 7th consecutive night of 4 hours total sleep in broken chunks and I am feeling a little worse for wear like the living dead.
TBH I am despairing a bit, the cot rolling thing is supposed to be a 'phase' but we are now into our 3rd month of it, and it's only getting worse. I am not seeing many options left for us except CC, which is something I never wanted to do, but I just cannot carry on like a zombie.

This all sounds really negative and moany... so to counteract, we had a lovely time at the beach in the sunshine and DS enjoyed eating tons of sand

ellie do you have a hippychick hipseat? I also have pemanent backache from lugging around DS and it has been a lifesaver. We are also at the stage in Ann's programme where I am no longer feeding him to sleep but he still requires rocking for his naps, and I found that miles easier if I perch him on the hipseat.

I was in the place you are at two weeks ago (minus the sunshine :)) It is horrible.

I second the hipseat, its a genius invention for clingy/heavy babes. DD1 still likes it too at nearly 2.5!

Am hoping we're coming out of a sleep regression with DD2, we were making progress with putting down and patting to sleep until last Wednesday when she screamed her head off for 30 minutes until I gave in and fed her to sleep (even though she'd just had a big feed) - she seems to want to feed to sleep again even though she had stopped by herself (or it had stopped working anyway). Plus we've had multiple night wakings for a few seconds of feeding back to sleep or even worse, refusing to go back to sleep for an hour or more then only sleeping for about 40 minutes. Coupled with DD1 getting up at 6 am (just as DD2 is finally finally settling into a lovely deep sleep) but being very grumpy about it, its been a rough few days. But last night was much better, she took a while to settle even though she had fed almost to sleep but then slept all evening and only woke three times between midnight and 7 and had a good long feed each time.

Much more manageable although it was a shame that DD1 woke up at 5.30 and wanted me to cuddle her in her bed. Think she had kicked the covers off again and was cold. Am actually thinking about getting the horrifically expensive gro to bed set where you zip them into the duvet.

So I was starting to think about night weaning, but now I'm reconsidering as she was taking full feeds each wake up last night. Sigh. Not sure what the next move will be… Somehow I'm losing hope that she is magically going to start STTN anytime soon those bastards were all lying when they said second babies all slept better

Ellie, I've been there. Its backbreaking trying to rock a big baby to sleep. And devastating when they wake up such a short time later. Could you pat him to sleep on the bed next to you and then lift him into the travel cot? Sit on a chair and lean over?

How long have you left him to roll around and go crazy? Would he eventually get it out of his system and go to sleep? If its taking an hour plus anyway maybe worth a go?

Personally I was never up for CC either but I found that gradual withdrawal did work for us. Although it was still hard as DD1 would get pretty upset. I've had to repeat it any number of times as well (although I think the same is true with a lot of sleep training) after illnesses and holidays and full moons.

Dreaming, I think that dramatic progress has been made, and you've done amazingly. One small cuddle isn't going to upset the apple cart too much and I think you did the right thing getting into his bed rather than taking him back into yours. There are always going to be bad nights but hopefully there will now be a lot more good ones than bad ones!

Elph how are things going? Is mini-ElphII letting you get any sleep? Obviously its only going to be about another week before he starts sleeping 12 hours

DS2 is most definitely sleeping like a baby He did his first full night in his co-sleeper cot last night (by 'full night' I mean still awake every hour for a feed, but went into the cot after each feed rather than me having to co-sleep in the spare bedroom because he freaked out at being put into it). He'll only nap on me, though. Not panicking...not panicking at all...two more weeks and it'll be 12 hours a night and three two hour naps a day in his cot while I sip coffee and do online shopping.

Dreaming I agree that one night of falling off the wagon won't ruin everything. Hopefully it's all back on track now

Peregrin 'Apotheosis of motherhood'

I'm officially challenging Hear for biggest hippie on the thread now. Not only do I have both boys in cloth nappies, am BFing about 50 times a day and co-sleeping as needed, I've fallen totally in love with a wrap sling I got from a sling library. My pre-baby self is alternating between face-palms and pointing and laughing

Thanks for the reassurance guys :) The night after that we had our best morning ever where he settled himself at 5:55 and woke at 7:25 with DD. Blissful! Even if dh was crashing/man-tiptoeing around I was lying in bed Not repeated of course. DD got him up at 6 the day after. She is the loudest child ever. I know all preschoolers are loud, I do have 3 of 'em, but good lord she is the loudest child I know. Sure partly to do with all the competing for . decibels/attention at home. But partly just her. And DT the T is a light sleeper so always wakes up to. her dulcet tones. I feel guilty tonight..Jr said he was chilly at teatime. I took no notice basically and told him he'd warm up with some warm food in him. Then he vomited in the bath. I took no notice as he's a refluxer and vomited all the way down the stairs last week as that's just what he does. Finally spotted he was a bit warm at bedtime. 38.4 temperature but I just, erm, ignored it because he'd got into bed himself and I was so pleased he wasn't kicking up such a fuss as usual I did text dh to bring up calpol but he didn't have his phone and if I went down DT the TV plus both others would have kicked up a huge stink. Feel a bit guilty now. Best go and check him once I finish my urgent mn-ing . He's made huge improvement. he's always in his own bed all night. he's only waking once or twice usually twice . He sometimes sleeps til.his light is on. I just wish he didn't cling to me so desperately and call and call for me and hook his little arms round my neck to try and get me to stay at bedtime. I feel such a bitch not staying, even though I'm right by his door when I.detangle myself from him trying, often unsuccessfully, not to get snappy as he pisses the others off with his constant shouting

chocolate I hate the setbacks. Very dispiriting. I hope you have another better night. I still find it infuriating I'd regularly get to stay in bed til 7:30am if it weren't for DT the T. Argh to your dd1 waking as your dd2 drops off!!!!

Forgotten the rest except excellent lentil weaver skills elph I've never got the hang of wrapping, was crap with my moby and am definitely a full buckles person- especially as it's loads of quick up and downs I do. Hats off to you with 2 in cloth nappies. I have mine in disposables and blame the swampy nappies. .. but your ds1 is the same. In the nappy department isn't he so better not try and trot out that excuse..! I still haven't been on the computer to see you photo and haven't figured out how to get off the crApp mn app on my phone which won't let me click on anyone. hmm. must make this a priority. But to bed now. DD had a nap so I ended up watching old Escape to the Country with her til 9:30pm. Sure poorly dt1 will be up too. If only he weren't so stroppy normally I'd have noticed his sudden outbursts of misery this afternoon more (took him swimming anyway!!)

Well, he may not yet be two weeks old, but I feel in my waters I've created another non-sleeper Pretty much won't entertain the idea of his fucking expensive cot - will only co-sleep (that extra 30cm closer to me makes all the difference ), will only nap on me, and is as obsessive a Velcro-baby boob monster as DS1 was. At this stage with DS1 I was at least able to get him back in his cot for a couple of hours between feeds. I'm sure those Good Sleepers of myth and legend are better than this even at this early stage.

Thank fuck he seems to be tolerating me having a proper caffeinated coffee in the morning or we'd be needing a Serious Chat.

elph dd did not entertain the idea of her moses basket. Ever. She never ever slept more than 2 hours and often 45 minutes or 90 minutes. She only napped on the boob. or in the sling (babybjorn and all!) I was on my knees as recovering from quite bad anaemia after my pph and third degree tear. Then in desperation tried her in her proper cot in her room at 9.5 weeks. Slept 8 hours solid from.that hell. I checked her 4 times in that 8 hours in case she'd died . Sleeping through within 2 weeks. Amazing. Even now she says as an excuse not to do something with daddy or just to be cuddled in the day "But I just love you too much" We were too close for cosleeping, we woke each other up Don't give up hope yet

Crap Elph. Hope Dreaming is right.

I am feeling demoralised after all the crying tonight, and I didn't manage to reduce the support either. I am sure Ann will sort us out but crap.
I was so hopeful a few days ago, he slept for six and a half hours on his first night of cot settling (!) and it's been downhill ever since. Back to his usual scheduling of waking all night and I no longer get to nap with him either. Need a cup of tea but that would eat into the thirty minutes I now have for trying to get some sleep.

peregrin keep the faith. It hasn't been an easy road for us either. We are 9 weeks on now and he sleeps in his own bed for up to 10 hours. He slept through about 6 times early on but hasn't since. Now he still is difficult. at naps and bedtime and wakes once but takes fucking forever up to about 45 minutes to an hour to resettle. BUT that's an enormous improvement in the scheme if things. it'd be better if he didn't wake around 3:30/4 a lot and have me.hang around or repeatedly get out of my bed and get increasingly cold feet and irate and then be unable to get to sleep and then be up again for the day within an hour or so of getting back to sleep- but Ann does feel he will hopefully continue to improve over the next year. And I'm not going to be too ungrateful about the 4am business because I know elphs views on those who complain about getting up for the first time at 4am from a while ago on here I think it's much more difficult with a refluxer too. If DT the T wakes crying I always race straight in and comfort as much as needed and always will. He doesn't cry if he doesn't hurt, he either calls out for me or comes padding though and waits by the bed for me to say something or take. him back to bed. If he calls and I don't go pretty quickly he cries but instant crying is reflux. We had a lot of 'bad' days until literally the last 2 months. He's been vomiting a bit the last week and had the night of high temperature when I slept on his floor again but otherwise I'd more settled so I think you've got to be prepared to go more slowly with him with that (if you think it's an issue) My dt1 has emotional issues around it too which I think is why he's so keen for me to stay with him at bedtime. Overall finishing the course with Ann and sticking to it has helped us in everyday life a lot. I'm calmer and happier as I definitely get more sleep and don't wake up already cross with having been kicked all night. It's really tough but I think it'll be worth it.

and sleep minielph#2 , sleep!! in the expensive cot dammit

Peregrin DS1 continued to make significant changes well after Ann's programme finished, so don't panic if you think you're 'running out of time'. There also will be regressive days while you're still in the programme, so just try and stay consistent and don't worry about having to take a step back. I think I stepped back quite a few times with DS1 and we got there

I've dusted off the white noise app that was the best outlay of 69p ever with DS1 and have started using it with DS2. The 'air conditioner' setting was what KO'd DS1. After experimentation, 'violet noise' actually settled DS2 down enough for me to go and do bedtime stories with DS1 which I didn't think I'd be able to do for a long time yet.

DH has freaked me out slightly, though, by announcing that he's won tickets to go and meet some of his boyhood sporting heroes at the end of the month at some evening do. His parents are away at a wedding, leaving me to put DS1 and cluster-feeding DS2 to bed by myself Fortunately DH is being open-minded about it, and accepting of the fact that I may yet tell him to put the tickets on eBay. I still can't actually pick DS1 up by myself yet (tried yesterday, deeply regretted it) so I may not be able to physically manage both of them by myself at that stage anyway. It's an inevitability that I will have to do it at some point as DH works away a lot, but I may have to put the kibosh on jollies for now.

Shit. DS2 waking up already. Ho hum.

Thanks so much Dreaming and Elph. I feel a bit more reassured that Ann won't fire us when I speak to her tomorrow. She gave me two options on Saturday and I managed to do neither.

It's shaping up to another rubbish night. DS was fine with cot hugs a few days ago but apparently those are not acceptable any more and he will lose his mind if I don't pick him up. I also strained my already aching back really badly yesterday (picked him up from the floor while sitting, like an idiot). Somehow even standing straight and breathing in is painful. This really helps.

Elph is that sporting do at the end of the month as in August? You are a better wife than I would be to keep the options open.

peregrin we went backwards majorly with bedtimes. As in changed tactic, went back to increasing support to get over that bit. She won't fire you or I'm sure she'd have fired me. I also got in dt1's bed this am at 6 am as he wouldn't shut up (having been dragged out of his siters bed who he'd woken up) and I was too tired and cba with the landing It didn't all go wrong last time I did that but best not make it a habit We're only human and it's so hard to stick to a plan (for me) even when it's a good one! Good luck for tonight. Here's a ROAR for strength and courage and this.

Phew. 5:50am wake up. Put dt the T back in bed. Few protests but he did wait til his light came on quietly and did not get his sister up again. Not ruined it all yet.

How were your nights elph and peregrin?

Awake every two hours, give or take, and all of it co-sleeping - wouldn't entertain the cot for longer than five minutes.

He's tongue-tied which isn't making for quick feeds, either, particularly if I get a strong let-down. He loses his latch then sounds like he's drowning, gets exhausted, conks out for two minutes, then the whole process starts again. He's booked to be snipped on 2 September - couldn't get an earlier appointment on the NHS or privately

Poor miniElph. Such hard work to fill his little tummy, after comfy nutrients on tap 24/7. It probably isn't too comfortable for you either.

DS put in two hours at a go once or twice in the night, so it could have been worse. Also could have been better. I was trying to see if the extent to which he is upset at bedtime and the number of hours have any relationship to the timing and length of his naps. He has had one outstanding night the second time I settled him in the cot, sleeping through till 3 am! The sleep log tells me he had almost exactly the same schedule on the worst night so far. I am starting to think he is messing with me on purpose

Got an appointment for my back for Wednesday. I'll have to move around a bit faster tomorrow than today, poor DS only got a half-hour walk outside the house and I can't think up any new games to amuse him. No wonder he is bored witless and whining while attached to my leg all day.

Hello! I went away for a few days and lost you all for a bit.

elph you are miles off claiming my hippy crown, I just spent 3 days on a silent meditation retreat. I can now knit meusli using only the power of my mind :o

Sorry, to hear about the tongue tie. Poor little thing. Maybe the clingyness and sleep will improve once he's been snipped. [Optimistic face]

Dd is on her second night without a nappy! Slightly terrifying, particularly when she climbs into our bed. In fact she is not wearing anything at all. She is going through a general clothes refusal phase and after persuading/wrestling her into clothes to leave the house I just can't be bothered to argue about it at night so let her sleep naked. Does this make me a bad parent? I'm genuinely not sure

peregrine there is no logic to not sleeping. Don't let them make you think there is, it will only lead to crushing disappointment when they change all the rules again!

Can someone please remind me when they stop pooing at night? It's all well and good feeding lying down and half awake but you can't do bastard nappy changes the same way.

My dts pooed at night for ages elph sorry!! Months. dd never did this. Keep reminding me why another dc is a terrible idea

Hello all, sorry for being a stranger! Just no bloody time to post!

Elph, DD1 night-pooed for weeks and weeks. DD2 was over it by about 4/5 weeks IIRC. I wasn't as good as you though, DD2 was in disposables for the first few weeks and I used her bedside crib to change her so I didn't have to get out of bed at least it got some use that way

Its quite astonishing how two babies fed exactly the same can have such different digestive systems. DD1 pooed virtually every feed until weaning, DD2 only ever pooed 2/3 times a day until about 6 weeks when she went to about one or twice a week!

DD2 was also a total velcro baby to begin with, naps on me/in sling and (when she finally conked out for the night, usually around 1am) night sleeps on my chest and nowhere else, not even next to me in bed, but she did eventually start sleeping in her crib, I think it was about 6 or 7 weeks old when I got the sleepyhead and she deigned to sleep in her actual stupidly expensive bed…

I confess I'm using disposables at night for now - when he stops with the damn pooing three times a night I'll put him in a Bamboozle and leave him all night the way I do with DS1. DS2 is Sir Shit-a-Lot just the way DS1 was. The midwives, HV and BfN Support worker are all quite used to my slightly manic smile when they ask me if he's doing lots of wet and dirty nappies. 'Plenty' says I through gritted teeth.