Gina mums - How to get baby to sleep thru' the nite?

[pena]

Dear Gina Ford mums,

After persevering for the last 10 weeks, Zach is finally settling into CLB routine. Hooray! However I can't seem to eliminate the 3-4am feed. Have tried a number of things GF suggested. E.g. a) increase feed volume during 7am to 11pm, b) give water & half of 7am feed if he wakes in the night.

It may partially be a HABIT to wake at 3am but he does seem quite hungry when I feed him. As for increasing the daytime feeds, have already raised it as much as possible (don't think I can keep increasing volume as he is already chucking up a bit of what I currently give him). Still each night I go to bed, I keep fingers crossed that he sleeps thru...but alas no!

Would really appreciate any suggestions as I am very tired & exhausted esp. as I have returned to work full time. Should I get the Richard Ferber book?

Dear Horse,

I am afraid I have no suggestions. I have never heard of Gina Ford until I joined this website and have never followed any of her routines.

All I know is that a baby will sleep through when s/he is ready to and not before. Babies, like adults, cannot wake themselves up on purpose during the night but that is not to say that they don't wake up at all - like an adult, once a baby sleeps through, they may wake from time to time during the night but drop back off to sleep by themselves.

I also had difficulty getting my baby to feed at say 10:30/11:00 and she went from me feeding her at this time and also waking in the middle of the night to be fed to now being put to bed at 8:00 (at the latest) and sleeps right through until 7:00. The only thing I was a little concerned about is that she is not having enough milk during the day (they recommend 3 oz of milk - for bottle fed babies - per lb of weight). If, for example, a baby weighs 10 lbs, they recommend s/he needs (10 x 3) 30 oz of milk per 24 hours, spread over, say, 5 bottles of 6 oz per bottle.

My baby now only has 4 bottles a day (and is still gaining weight) and is having 7 oz in each bottle so that means that, although she weighs nearly 14 lbs, she is only having 28 oz of milk a day, but as I said she is still gaining weight, is active and focused when she is awake and sleeping through the night, so I am not unduly worried.

I seem to have waffled on a bit and lost track of the thread, but never mind.
I just think babies sleep through the night when they are ready and you shouldn't worry about the fact that they might not be getting enough sleep to worry about the fact that you aren't (if that makes sense).

Horse - she's still quite young and heavy to go through. Mine is 12 weeks & 14lb and did the same at that age, though he didn't refuse the water. How's she eating the rest of the day? Also - you said that she had difficulty keeping awake for the 7am feed. Does she go back to sleep after this then? Personally, I think that she's used to waking at that time for a feed and is still waking, although whether she's still hungry or only doing it out of habit I can't tell. Can she settle with a cuddle and/ or dummy? Does she sleep through after this waking or continue to wake?(If you don't feed her the former suggests habit the latter hunger.) Hang in there -my ds is just doing it occasionally now at 12 weeks, and sometimes is back to 4.30am for no reason. We don't feed him, just a cuddle and back to cot. I am hoping this will pass soon too. Good luck - you are doing incredibly well for a 7 week old!

Dear Manna & Bumblelion
Thank you both for your replies. In reply to your questions Manna - she eats well the rest of the day and seems very happy. For her 6.15pm feed she gets 20 mins on both breasts and is always offered a top up of expressed milk. For her 10.30pm feed she usually drinks around 3 - 4ozs of formula (for her weight she should be drinking 5ozs). After her 7am feed she will stay awake until 10.50am when she has her nap. I have not tried to settle her with a cuddle or a dummy because I feel that she wants the milk (she seems to make all of the noises in respect of wanting the milk but I may be wrong) - I shall try this tonight. Once she has fed at 3am she will go straight back to sleep and wake up (or be woken up) by 7am. You may be right about it being a habit for her to wake up. She is still in the room with us so it is hard to ignore her wimpers and cries for any length of time when she wakes.
Thank you again, I welcome your thoughts.

Hi Horse,
If u read my original thread - DS also had same habits...but at 10 weeks! So trust me - you are really doing very well. In answer to your question - is it habit or are they really hungry?

The clue to look out for - is baby wolfing down her 7am feed or refusing it? I too was concerned that his whimperings but when he started refusing his 7am...I decided to get tough

It took almost a week to get him to drop the feed by...a)just take water at 4am, b)go back to sleep, c) take all his milk at 7am.

Some things which worked w/ Zach...

1. refusing/taking water - sweeten H2O w/ some juice to get him to drink it. Get him to drink a few gulps every time before delivering the "goods"- Milk! Once she gets into habit of taking water - then shift to plain water.

2. dropping the feed - once she accepts some water before milk, start giving more water & less milk. Keep reducing the milk portion until she's just taking water. I think we did this for 3 nights in a row & afterwards I just figured I'd go for broke & give just water & pacifier. He wasn't happy (smart little bxxxxr! & cried as if I conned him! but thankfully - still went to sleep. DS is still waking at 4 but will settle after some water & pacifier.

Keeping her awake for 10.30 pm & 7 am feeds - the last feed is also a struggle for me to wake up ds from his DEEP sleep & finish his bottle but here is what worked - turn up ALL lights until room is VERY bright, turn up music or TV too. If he falls asleep mid-feed, I'd change his nappy which somehow does the trick. Also I try not to burp ds too many times during the feed as once he has his 1 big burp - he's ready to go back to sleep. Good luck, hope this helps. It is hard work to drop the early feed but don't feel pressured to get dd to drop it now - I didn't try at 10 weeks as ds was going thru' growth spurt & was wolfing down all bottles.

horse - to be honest - it sounds like she's just hungry. Gina does expect babies to go through very young. Mine didn't start going until 5/6 until 10 weeks and is now only going through to 7.15 occasionally (hurrah, like last night!) at 12.5 weeks. You could try getting her to take more at 10.30pm. My dh does this feed at 11pm, so I can sleep, which is good. 6.15pm - 10.30pm is only 3 1/4 hrs, so maybe she's not quite hungry enough? Also - 3 - 4oz doesn't seem like enough for a 12lb baby to see them through. She's waking when her stomach is empty, which at that age is entirely appropriate. See if she can take more at night, change the feed to as late as you can face it, and start thinking about getting her out of your room. My ds went solo at 4 / 5 weeks, oh the relief!!!! (for both of us, I think!) Mostly, though,don't panic, you're doing incredibly well, and it is just around the corner, I'm sure! Good advice from Pena - especially point 2. I'm not sure about sweetening the water, Pena, I think she recommends that only for colic? (can't quite remember.) A spoonful of formula may be a better idea.

Hi Pena and Manna
Thanks for your replies. Last night I tried the cuddle and dummy. Neither worked. Water doesn't work either. I do feel now, on reading Manna's reply that it may be that she is just hungry although that doesn't really account for her waking for just a 5 minuite feed as this wouldn't be sufficient to satisfy her hunger. Last night she fed on one breast for 20 minutes. I think that I have been expecting her to lengthen the sleep when she could just cut it out suddenly. I have worried about giving her diluted juice. As a first time mum I'm not quite sure how diluted it should be (ditto for formula)! Last night she had 5oz of formula at her 10.30pm feed - this my partner gave to her. Like you, Manna, this is meant to give me a break. It seems strange that she had her largest feed for a long time (2 oz more than usual) but woke up at the same time. I suppose this may suggest that it is habit. I was going to put her in her own room at 3 months - in 4 weeks. I know that this will help considerably.

Horse - unfortunately how much they eat doesn't relate directly to how long they sleep - I got very mathematical about it at one stage, but it can't be too rigid. Things like outside noise, clicking radiators and room temp. have all been known to wake my ds, at other times he can sleep through on less feed and more noise than normal - hey, ho!

HELP - Pupuce or some other Gina 'been there done that' mum! - Ds is 13 weeks, 14lb, taking 5 x 7oz formula feeds. He normally hoovers them up, but yesterday left 2oz of 7am feed (after sleeping through), and 3oz 2.30pm feed. This morning he woke at 5.30 / 6am but still left 3oz of 7am feed! Naturally, I am paranoid that having just started to go through, though not all the time, suddenly decreasing his feeds by up to 5oz will result in him waking earlier. Also it will mean a very grizzly child waiting for his 11am feed, which I know I will have to give him at 10.45 today. He was 2 weeks late (so is 'really' nearer 15 weeks) could he be ready for solids?Also - I know GF says 3hrs, but what are opinions on max. daytime sleep?

Manna - DD is also on GF but sleeps more than 3 hours a day - she is 6 months old. DS was much more on the routine and he slept very much as she deescribed.... I would make sure he gets 45 min in the morning - 1h max, then a good lunch nap of at least 2 hours and maybe a tiny sleep at 1600 (not in the dark).
Don't panick yet about the food intake.
Is your son 100% or might he have a bit of cold ? He can eat a bit less sometimes...
Don't wean your baby too early unless you are 100% sure he is hungry for solids. 13 weeks is not 4 months old... it's very young even if you consider that he was late. You'll know when he is ready for solids when consistently can't wait for the next feed... right now your baby is cutting down on milk so that does not mean he wants solids.
The "problem" with bottles is that you see how much your child ate, you can't do that with breast... so bf mothers probably panick less but I am sure their babies don't always eat the same quantity each day.
See how it goes for the next couple of days, I'll be checking the threads anyway and will reply if you want me to. Don't worry if you feed him at 1045... don't let him starve !
What did you give him at 530 this morning ?
You are clearly at a border line stage and I know it's annoying but he will improve soon.

Pupuce - thanks - good tip about the afternoon nap - he's always been in a darkened room up until now. I will open the curtains and see if he wakes naturally (normally he could sleep for up to 1hr then, unless I wake him, which I do!) He ate slightly more this morning, about 5.5 - 6oz so that's fine, he may have had a momentary blip. He did have a cold a couple of weeks ago which seems to have gone, so I don't know whether its that. In reply to your question about night feeds - I never feed him in the night now that he has gone through a few times. He doesn't really want it, he just wants a cuddle to get back to sleep. When I pick him up he doesn't even open his eyes! I think I will just have to hold out another couple of weeks and then leave him to settle himself once our visitor has gone. It is annoying being at this borderline stage as you know they can do it, have done it and will do it again, but when???BTW - you're right about solids - I was just flailing around desperately for a answer yesterday. I have the baby rice, but it's firmly in the back of the cupboard. There is a bit in Gina about how a 3 month old baby weighing more than 14lb could be ready to be weaned early, but he is not gasping for his feeds yet, so he's clearly not that child! Thanks for all the advice xxx

Hi there again and thanks for all the advice about dd's sleep. On Friday night she slept through from midnight to 5.35 but last night she slept until 3.30. One thing though, being still in our room she picks up on all our noises. DH snores very loudly. Last night when I woke up (just before dd) dh was very vocal whereas on Friday night he was silent because he was not here. Is it possible dh is the problem?

It is difficult for any author (even Gina) to include every case... so if she writes about solids for big babies, it's probably to re-assure the mum of a big baby who may show signs of being very hungry that it is possible to feed them solids early-on but that doesn't mean that they must. My DD started solid very recently and DS started at 51/2 months old.
I do understand your post though.... we all go through phases where we aren't sure anymore about what to do next - I'll bet that if you read your post in 6 weeks, you'll know the answer to your own question.
Hope the shorter PM nap helps. You can put him in his bed with the door open and the light in the hallway (that's what I doand she slept 15 minutes).

Hi Manna, I'm in exactly same boat as you. . DS (also 'bout same age & weight as yours) was happy to have water & cuddle at 4 am, b4 going back to sleep until his feed at 7am. But the past 2 nights, he refused the water & woke up screaming for feed at 6 am.

Dear Pupuce, I take it from yr advice to Manna that I should just hang on & ds will settle back again??? So should I continue to persist in giving him water if he wakes up & holding out the feed until 7am? Also should I make the last night feed the biggest? I shifted 1 oz from the 11pm feed to 6pm as ds was always too sleepy to finish anyway (plus GF advices that 6pm be a bigger feed than 11pm).

Sigh! When will ds sleep thru????

Like Manna, I'm worried that we're going back to square one & 6 feeds a day. Also will he eventually just sleep thru' i.e. really sleep thru from 11pm to 7am?

Pena - Can you just tell me how the rest of his day goes ? When do you feed and how much and when does he sleep and for how long ?
I'd be happy try to see where you could make so adjustment. IME it's easier for a third party to spot the area for improvement !

Horse - being in your room probably isn't helping. Why not move dd out sooner? Or buy some breathright's (anti snoring things) for dh!!!

Pena - take a deep breath & keep calm! You sound just like me when I try and work it out with ds! He will go longer. Do a split feed at 6am as suggested in CLB, as it's nearly morning anyway. Whatever you do, don't go back to feeding any earlier - you've just established that there is no food in the night now, and he was ok, so you don't want to go back to square one. My ds never has water, just a cuddle, so don't worry about the water, it's only to con them into thinking they're feeding, anyway. Don't know about night feed amounts, as ds always takes 7oz, so if he leaves a half or 1oz I'm not too worried - I'd advise getting as much down him as poss. at both feeds at this stage!! Hang on in there, it's always darkest before the dawn, as they say! (and I've seen alot of dawns recently.......)

Pena - don't make the 11PM too big because that's the one you're dropping off next.

Hi Pupuce & Manna,
Thanks for replying. Here is ds' current schedule. Appreciate yr. input on where I can make some adjustments.

• 4am = crying met by water & pacifier. Goes back to sleep after 5 mins.
• 7am (more like 6:30am) = 7 ozs. After this feed, DS always dozes off for another 30 min as I can't keep him awake, much less myself
• 9am = naps for 30-45 min
• 11am = 5 ozs
• 12noon = naps for 2 to 2.5 hrs. Quality varies as on some days he naps well & can't be roused easily, on other days he will only go down 30 min.
• 2pm = 5 ozs. This is followed by effort to keep him awake till bath time.
• 6:30pm = 7 ozs. after his bath. He goes down easily at 7pm & then has to be really roused up at 10:30 pm for his last feed.
• 11:00 pm - 6 ozs. but hard to make him finish completely as he is too sleepy.

Thanks! Pupuce - your next career calling def. has to be in this area. I know that you are currently looking at career options, have u considered areas like writing/editing for online & offline publications focused on parenting issues, or doing marketing/communications consulting w/ companies targetting products & services at mums who could do w/ someone telling them what we really want/need

Pena - I wont comment in depth as Pupuce has more knowledge than me, but here are a few thoughts:
4am thing - just habit.
7am feed - good. Little sleep ok as long as he doesn't have more than 1hr in total between then and 9am sleep. He will probably grow out of it as he starts waking more at 7am.
12pm nap. Try limiting him to 2hrs?
2pm feed - try pushing to 2.30pm.
What about a short nap (no more 1/2 hr) at 4.30pm? I know there's no way I could keep ds awake from 2pm - 7pm! What do you do? I can keep him going an extra 15mins max. My opinion, for what it's worth!

PUPUCE- I have a thought! this is the 5th day ds has refused up to 3oz morning feed. Could it be that he's ready to cut back on 11pm feed (which he still takes 6 - 7oz) but doing it 1st thing in the morning instead of last thing at night? Your comment to Pena reminded me that he's meant to be cutting down then, do I maybe need to cut him down to ensure good feed at 7am? The only thing is, gf always says when moving 11pm feed forward or cutting it down to wait until ds is sleeping through for at least 7 days first. As you know, he's not doing this regularly yet. However, his waking is habit, not hunger, and he drops off as soon as I cuddle him. So I know I need to do some cc (but can't for another 1.5 weeks due to visitors) anyway. BUT, should I just continue on with the rest of the changes anyway? i.e. move 11pm forward then cut it down. My thought is that I should try cutting it down without moving it forward (don't really see the benefit to him in moving it forward, only to me)and see if his night time wakings remain the same, or start to be out of hunger? Or should I just sort the waking out first and then the 7 am feed? The trouble is, if he keeps on like this for another 1.5 weeks he will be in a cyle of poor 1st feed, grouchy until 11 am and unable to wait for it, not feel like playing 10 - 11am etc. and get into a habit of large last feed, making it more difficult to drop. What do you think, oh wise one? (said in fake chinese accent.....)

Pena- DO introduce a short nap at 1600 - 1630. 30 minutes or there abouts (not 1h!) in a room with some light but not too much disturbance. I put mine in her bed, no cover with the lights in the hallway and the door open.
Don't worry about the quantity for his 11PM feed but watch it so that you will know when to drop it. I always had to wake my kids at 11PM.
Is your son falling asleep because he might be too warm/cosy ? Just a thought.
Thanks for the kind words !

Manna (your turn ) - I would give him slightly less (2oz) at 11PM and see how it goes with his 7AM feed. Clearly he isn't eating much then... I never followed the 7 day rule to drop the 11PM feed myself (after 4 days I went for it but everything else was sorted out... also both my kids were over 3 1/2 months before they did 7 to 7 nights)... every child is different.
I am not an advocate of CC but had this thought. Why don't you see tonight how long he will cry for ?

1. If it's over 10 minutes go to him
2. This isn't your visitor's child : so they probably won't hear him and even if they do, they know you are on the case so they won't really awaken (unless they are known to be poor sleepers themselves) - just tell them you want to see how long he cries for... you might be surprise !

Let me know how you get on !
Bon courage (said with a French accent )

Aaarrrgggghhhhh I'm going nuts. Ds finally slept thru' on Friday nite - he didn't wake until 7!!! But then what does he do last night? Wakes at 5 - difficult to console back to sleep. Screaming at 7 while I frantically get his bottle together...and then he only drinks 1/3 of it! I really lost it at this point & felt like whacking him, since he kept squirming around & kept spitting out the milk. I guess its just one of those days. Sigh some days its just so hard to keep it together.

Pena - you're right it is so difficult to keep it together, and it is perfectly normal to want to go beserk. Please remember that if he has been used to waking its habit that he will get out of very soon. I was where you are a year ago and I have not forgotten how frantic and tired you are let alone the ds! It took a couple of weeks to break this habit, and if I am honest even now I stir at 5ish some mornings because I want to avoid the shock of waking for me! MAD.

I remember in the snow putting a coat on over my dressing gown and going down the end of the garden to have a ciggie to calm down!. I found that waking easier to deal with if I kind of woke up myself gently anyway. Just wish now I could get out of the habit! It made for a long day at work, but I ended up being so antisocial that I would be in bed at 8pm and my husband would wake me so that I could feed him with a bottle at 10.30! - my husband got whacked then.! You wait until he drops that last feed at 10.30pm you won't know what to do with yourself!. Somedays though you just wish you could close your eyes and it to be 3 months down the line and everything is sorted out. Don't despair! How did he do this morning - Sunday? let me know I am here all day in work.

Pena - I agree with Charliesmummy - except for the ciggies of course

You are clearly almost there. And I would also like to know how Sunday went.
What Charliesmummy says is SO true... soon you'll wake at 5 and he won't ! and also you'll wonder what to do with your evening when you'll drop the 2230 feed

It does get better and it will soon.

Pena, maybe he only took a third of his bottle because he was upset at waiting? 8 hours from 11pm to 7am seems an awfully long time for a small baby to go without a feed - although some do, I know! Can you not feed him when he wakes at 5am and then you might get another three hours. He could be just on the verge of sleeping through but not yet every night. Baby's needs vary from day to day (and when they have growth spurts) as do adults - twice recently I woke in the middle of the night absolutely starving and had to fix myself a bowl of cereal before I could go back to sleep, LOL!

Pena - I think we have matching babies. as you know my ds & your are the same age, weight, similar habits etc. Both fab Gina babies. My ds is sleeping through, then going back to 5.30 etc. Also, for 5 days last week he refused 3oz of a 7oz bottle at 7am. Don't know why, I was getting frantic! Anyway - he went back to taking it all after that, although he quite regularly leaves 1 - 2oz at 7am. I never feed him in the night (see section on core night in 'confident child', so I too thought he must have been starving. I just moved his 11am feed forward to 10.45, and boy did he woof it down!! Anyway - point is that he's now slept through 3 out of 4 nights (until 6.40ish, then just lies there sucking his thumb quietly until I go for him) even though he still leaves some 7am feed. Some babies are just not too hungry at that point. Remember, if he's 14lb you need to get 5 x 7oz feeds down him during the day, or as near as poss. I reckon ds is only just 14lb and he's on 32 - 34oz a day, depending. And btw - I ALWAYS wake at 5am naturally, just waiting!!!!! Still, lying there without having to get up is such a luury, I don't mind at all. I reckon that your ds is very close on the heels of mine, infact wouldn't be surprised if he's doing the same thing right now!

for luury please read luxury!

Just wanted a bit of advice really?? Is it practical for me to try a gina ford routine with my 3rd who is due in October. Or is impossible with 2 other kids to fit around? Iam quite big on routines and want to know if I should buy the book?? Pupuce would love your advice here!!