Gina mums - How to get baby to sleep thru' the nite?

[pena]

Dear Gina Ford mums,

After persevering for the last 10 weeks, Zach is finally settling into CLB routine. Hooray! However I can't seem to eliminate the 3-4am feed. Have tried a number of things GF suggested. E.g. a) increase feed volume during 7am to 11pm, b) give water & half of 7am feed if he wakes in the night.

It may partially be a HABIT to wake at 3am but he does seem quite hungry when I feed him. As for increasing the daytime feeds, have already raised it as much as possible (don't think I can keep increasing volume as he is already chucking up a bit of what I currently give him). Still each night I go to bed, I keep fingers crossed that he sleeps thru...but alas no!

Would really appreciate any suggestions as I am very tired & exhausted esp. as I have returned to work full time. Should I get the Richard Ferber book?

Hi Pena,

Sorry for replying so late... I was hoping that someone else would reply but it seems that it will be my turn again
I don't know about the gel- lucky me never had to use it. All his teeth won't necessarily be a problem. Personnally,I wouldn't automatically spread gel every day.
Again because you are bottle feeding you can see the quantities your baby is eating... if you were bf you wouldn't worry as much as you would not see it. My point is - unless you find that him eating less is disturbing him (I mean sleep wise), I REALLY would not worry too much about quantities.
In order to drop the 11PM feed, depends on how much he is currently eating at that feed. I stopped it when those feeds were tiny for a few days. In both cases my kids were not on solids yet - but they did sleep though the night earlier than yours so I may not be a good reference for you on this.

Pena - I haven't got any bright ideas (which was why I was waiting for pupuce to reply) , except to echo what she says. I wouldn't use the gel all the time (he might develop an immunity to it and when he's really yelling with his teeth need an introvenous drip of the stuff!). Also - if it doesn't effect his sleep / general happiness its probably just a phase. My ds is 17 weeks, nearly 16lb and still only drinking 30 - 35oz per day, depending on the day. I started him on solids last week, which he loved and it does seemed to have increased his general appetite for milk as well, although that might be coincidence. However, the same thing happened with a friend from my nct group when she put her ds on solids. Could it be that it opens up their tummies? Anyway - you could try him on baby rice. As long as his intake of milk doesn't go down and he's enjoying the rice, it can't do any harm. As far as the rest of gf is concerned - don't drop it just because of a minor blip in his appetite! (Anyway - I doubt if you could now, he'll probably do it on his own anyway) I would sit it out with the milk, try the rice and that way between the 2 he'll be getting enough nourishment. When ds is finished with a bottle and looks really full he'll still gobble up a sizable bit of baby rice and pear now. I think the change of texture spurs him on! I'm nowhere near dropping the night feed - he's still hoovering up 6oz then. I think it'll be a while until he drops this, and I'm in no hurry. If I were you, I wouldn't rush into dropping it - just get dh to do it so you can go to bed early. I can't see any real benefit in rushing this last hurdle - better wait until he's well away on the solids and coming off it by himself by taking less and less. Is your boy still happy and sleeping?

Thanks Manna & Pupuce - as usual u guys have come thru' again. Have started the baby rice which he loves. And this time, I REALLY promise to really RELAX about the milk. He is sleeping beautifully - sometimes I admit its a bit weird how he's so atuned into the routine. Last night, his schedule was all messed up bec we had sitter trouble & I was stuck in traffic. Anyway, I'd never heard him so annoyed & it took a while to calm him down again. The flipside to this is that when he gets his feed & naps properly, he goes down like an angel.

Good to hear your progress.

Hi Pupuce & Manna,

Need yr opinion on this. DS' appetite has deteriorated. Feeding dropped from 30-35oz to 25oz plus cereal & puree (started him as it seems that the solids were less irritating to his gums). In order to get him to take more milk, I've dropped the 11pm feed - he still wakes up at 6:15-7:00 so the sudden disappearance of this feed appears to not have any impact on the sleep plus he is ravenous for his 7am bottle. That being said, the quantities still only add up to about 25 ozs.
I know that GF advises not to replace the milk too quickly & I don't want to either but his teething is pretty bad & it looks like the canine teeth are coming before bottom front two (which I'm told is another freaky thing about ds).

Before I think I've given birth to the spawn of dracula, any ideas on the volume & I know I shouldn't count quantities - but don't u agree that the drop has been severe?

Pena,

I don't know about that one to be honest. I haven't experienced that. How is his weight gain ? If he is not loosing weight, you are probably worrying about nothing. He may drop on his curve but that doesn't mean that he is loosing weight.
He won't starve himself, remember that! and this isn't affecting his sleep !
Keep positive !

Pena - I agree 25oz doesn't seem like much. There are days when thats all my son wants, as well. Yesterday he took about that, today he only missed 1oz of 1 feed. I suppose what I'm saying is, is it a trend or a blip? Also - can you make his baby rice really runny to get more milk into him? Do you always give him as much milk as he can drink before offering solids? Don't have the rice in front of him when giving him the bottle - it might distract him. I agree with Pupuce - if it's not effecting his sleep then it's probably ok. I can't believe you dropped the 10pm feed just like that - didn't he mind? Ds is still on his, even though he vacillates between 2oz and 6oz then. Like my doctor said too, he wont starve himself. Compared to most babies ours are incredibly priviledged to be so well nourished and rested. They are hardy little devils, you know

Oooh - love the canine thing - very cute. You'll have to call him fang

He won't starve, he won't starve, he won't...my mantra for the day. Its not really this that I'm worried about - its just that he's been growing so fast & putting on weight so beautifully for the past 4 months, that it seems like a huge setback on his diet to go thru' teething at least 2 months early.

THe reassuring thing is last night, I read in What to Expect...that teething has been known to start as early as 3 months (extreme case) & often the timing is hereditary. Interesting isn't it?

Manna - ds seems to have adjusted well to the sudden disappearance of the night feed - I didn't do the gradual reduction thing but decided to go for broke - more in the hope that he'll be hungrier for his 7am bottle (bec. of the teething/appetite loss problem). This seems to have worked well i.e. he's hungry & the added bonus is that his sleep routine has not been disrupted.

Letting ds go 12 hrs without a feed is not as bad as it sounds. DS does not cry in the morning, he just thumps his bed with his legs & knows that this is enough to get my attention & get his bottle going. Why not try it Manna & see if it works - if it doesn't then it just means 1 night ruined.

Hi Pena
My dd had her first two teeth (bottom front) at 8 weeks !! She was teething from birth. She also now, at 7 months has another 6 coming through !! Two either side of her front two at the bottom (none at the top yet) and a couple at the back.
I have found that the Teething granules help a lot - they're homeopathic and Tilly loves them. In terms of feeds I wouldn't worry too much. As long as he's not regularly not taking the right amount. They go through phases and he will take what he needs I think. If he takes less bottles how about increasing the amount so he has 4 x 7oz bottles ?

my dd had a bottom tooth at 7 weeks!!

Nightmare isn't it !

Yes! My dd is now 2 and getting molars aargh! ds is 7 weeks and no sign of teeth thank goodness!

Keep everything crossed !

Thanks all, feel more relieved that this does happen early. Its just that I got a lot of surprised, raised eyebrows when I said he was teething.

I can only sympathise with DS & try to empathise with him on how bothersome it must be to have these protrusions come thru' your gums.

Tried the homeo granules & yes - much much better than the gel the doctor prescribed, plus I think he loves it when we massage his gums with it at the same time.

dear pena - I was really worried about my ds who almost completely stopped eating solids when his first teeth came through (not until 8 months). I asked loads of people about their experience with teething and almost everyone agreed that their dd/ds went right off feeding. Its completely normal. Now that my ds has his bottom two through he's started to eat again but I'm sure it wont be long before the next ones start arriving (more worry!!)

Jasper, in reply to your comments on the 3rd of March (sorry to take so long to respond): It is a fact that tall people do better, salary -wise than others. I'm not sure whether the anxiety we have to make kids eat a lot comes from that or whether it's due to a feeling, that the bigger the baby, the less likely it is to get ill. Perhaps its a mixture. But kids will eat what they need, if its available, they have an instinct knowledge of what to eat. We obviously know this instinctively, but there are stronger personalities dictating to us what is right and wrong.

I think the 4/6 month issue is covered in NCT literature - it was an NCT BF counsellor that told me this info.

I am mistrustful of a lot of BFood manufacturers. They use deceitful labelling and unethical marketing.

Finally - are Annabel K and Susannah Oliver nutritionists? If they are, they are only 2 opinions. As someone said on the radio the other day, Scientists who hold a belief can honestly find evidence to support their beliefs in their research.

I don't think you're confrontational, you seem genuinely interested.

Suazannah Olivier is a nutitionist and very unconventional - you might like her Serena !
Her book is excellent.

Thanks Pupuce - why am I being labelled unconventional? JUST A JEST - I am unconventional and try to hide it in my real life so I can be a FREAK here.

Exactly... you said it yourself earlier on... you feel you can be your true self here (with your beliefs) and can't be with some of your friends.
there is nothing wrong or negative with being unconventional... I am in many ways !

serena where have you been?!
Very interesting your theory about mothers overfeeding babies ( To grow up big and strong)to et the privilleges accorded to tall people but I think it is more complicated than that. I think mothers(including myself) can get our knickers in a twist about feeding in general, and are equally concerned about our children NOT being overfed, because if you overfeed a child, it gets fatter, not taller! And we are all fairly keen our children don't turn into fatties, but nor do we want them ( especially our daughters) to get eating disorders.

As for baby food manufacturers using misleading labels and unethical marketing, isn't that standard for practically everyone who has a product to sell?

As for kids having an instinctive knowledge of what to eat, does this include instinctively prefering chocolate buttons over broccoli?

This sounds stupid - but how do u know if u are over-feeding or not? If I go by the official recommended volume per pound ratios, ds would be underfed by at least 7 ozs i.e. exactly 1 feed since he is now only on 4 feeds. But he gains weight well (a bit too well IMO. He's probly around 15 lbs now (4.5 mos). I don't think I force feed but am quite vigilant about how much he takes per day since this does impact how he sleeps in the night.
Since my earlier panic attack (see earlier threads) about his loss of appetite/teething, I've really learned to relax about how much he eats/doesn't eat. So am I over-feeding since ds is a bit of a fattie?

Pena - 4 - 8oz weight gain per week is what's recommended. A sustained pattern of more or less should be looked into - but it would need to be over several weeks at his age to do anything about it. My lovely ds hasn't been weighed for a month - he's the same age as yours - and he was at about 15.5lb then! Not at all fat - just long. I think weight gain is the thing - not overall size. Also this is a time he will fatten up a bit - the first solids etc. Don't worry - it'll all drop off when he starts crawling..... Along with any excess weight you may want to lose as you run around after him Also - after the last month I FORBID you ( ) to start worrying about over feeding him now!!

Thanks Manna. I am absolutely ga-ga about DS but only wished my job would allow me more time with him. The 7am to 7pm routine means that at most I only get a harried 1-2 hrs. a day with ds (how I hate saying this in public as it screams "dysfunctional mum"! yes, it is dysfunctional but until I find another more accomodating boss...but that's another discussion).

After dropping the 10:30pm feed, ds is out like a light from 7pm to 7am. This means that every day I work like a maniac & fight traffic like a madwoman just to get home before 7pm & spend what little time w/ a sleepy baby (now I understand what Road Rage is all about).

So the question is this - now that ds is 20 weeks old & seems quite settled in his routine - can I tinker with the GF schedule & shift it from 8am to 8pm so I can spend quality time w/ him in the evening? I'm a strong believer that children need to get proper zzzzs, so would not want a late bedtime that would adversely impact him (just don't cut in front of me in traffic!! grrr!). Any advice on this & how I'd go about doing the adjustment?

I tihnk pupuce would have more experience than me. However, I shouldn't think it will be a problem - just take advantage of a late waking one morning and push everything forward. Also - they can go a bit longer now between sleeps if afequately amused, so you could just push him to 9.15 - 10.15, then 12.30 - 2.30, then 4.45 - 5.15, then bed 7.30pm first day? sounds good in theory let me know how you get on.