Gina mums - How to get baby to sleep thru' the nite?

[pena]

Dear Gina Ford mums,

After persevering for the last 10 weeks, Zach is finally settling into CLB routine. Hooray! However I can't seem to eliminate the 3-4am feed. Have tried a number of things GF suggested. E.g. a) increase feed volume during 7am to 11pm, b) give water & half of 7am feed if he wakes in the night.

It may partially be a HABIT to wake at 3am but he does seem quite hungry when I feed him. As for increasing the daytime feeds, have already raised it as much as possible (don't think I can keep increasing volume as he is already chucking up a bit of what I currently give him). Still each night I go to bed, I keep fingers crossed that he sleeps thru...but alas no!

Would really appreciate any suggestions as I am very tired & exhausted esp. as I have returned to work full time. Should I get the Richard Ferber book?

I did start a thread called "GF routines with baby number 2" :
www.mumsnet.com/s/Talk?topicid=67&threadid=1167&stamp=011017132547

Have a look there.
I find it is quite possible to do it (allows you to have "guaranteed" naps) - you may need to adapt with regards to bath time, etc
I find my kids and I thrive on it.. and to tell you the truth I deviate from it whenever I need or want to without any hassle and it doesn't feel like a routine but just the way we do things.

If you think her stuff might be for you, you'll like her book. Aside from her routines it does contain loads of valuable advice even for non first time mums (as I have discovered when I bought the book for a friend expecting her 2nd).
There may be things you'll be surprised by.
Maybe your local library has it if you're not sure or for 7.99 you are not taking a huge risk - you can always give it to a friend if you really hate it

Hi everyone,
Sunday was exhausting. He took all his naps i.e. lunch time & afternoon. But otherwise spent the entire day demanding to be picked up & entertained the whole day. (Oh, where was the contented little baby that all the neighbours were admiring last week???:P I spoke to his sitter this AM & she also noticed that he was very grizzly last Friday.

Anyway - Sunday night he goes down like a log. I wake him at 10.30pm & he wolfs down his feed. Goes back to sleep - then wakes crying at 3am, I do the water & dummy thing, but he wakes again at 5 am - this time, refuses water. After all that, he left behind 2ozs.

OK Pupuce - is this another growth spurt, an attention deficit condition From Manna's earlier threads, I guess ds will still yo-yo between sleeping thru/waking?

Manna thx for advice - I'll start increasing his feed to 35 oz per day, but at the mo', hard to see that he wants more since he barely finishes what I give him & chucks up the rest. Are u sure our ds-es were not separated from birth

pena - do you mean that he only just finishes all his feeds, or just 7am one? How much does he chuck up? mine eats as follows: 7am: 5 - 6oz. 10.45:7oz. 2.30pm:6.5 - 7oz.6pm: 6.5 - 7oz. 11pm: 7oz. So in total he usually misses 2 - 2.5oz of the 35oz recommended. I did add an extra scoop of formula to the same amount of water as usual once at 6pm (naughty!), on the assumption that by the time he'd finished he wouldn't notice the extra formula, although it would be hard to get an extra oz water down him as well. This was when he missed lots of little bits during the day, so I felt justified! He didn't seem to notice, although I felt a bit crafty!
Sounds to me like a growth spurt. does he do a lot in the day? i.e. exercise etc? He may be getting bored by his normal activities and need a change. We had visitors all last week with a 10 month old, and he loved it, it definitely helped to keep him awake longer, get less grizzly before sleep etc. just having new people to play with. The thing is, at this age what amused them last week may not this week. Same with sleeping habits etc. They are always going forward, never standing still, and sometimes it's difficult for us to keep up with them. How's the light & sound in his bedroom? covers kicked off? Are you planning to start him on solids at 15 weeks?
Oh, and btw, you are not alone. Found my ds at 5.30am this morning at the top of the cot with his head practically jammed between the cot spars, despite being swaddled, well tucked in and sleeping between a guardian angel! The great houdini lives!

PS I have one last resort idea if you're really desperate, but check other ones first.

Manna,
He more or less finishes all feeds except 7am. on some days he leaves about 3-4 ozs. & sometimes has these big vomits i.e. i'd guess maybe about 1 large mouthful of sick.

I think you're right - it might be a growth spurt as I hadn't incresed his feed for a while on top of dropping the night time one. (how silly that I didn't figure that one out). He was happy today, content baby after I increased his 11am & 2.30pm feed. Wolfed down the last feed for the night (I live in Singapore which is 8 hours ahead). I'll let u know how he fares tonight.

Question - maybe need to start new thread here - but how old do u get them started on swimming/water training. Gina mentions it at 3-4 months - I just feel that 3 seems a bit young to be dunked in a pool.

Next big question - when are u starting on solids? I don't want to rush it - altho' am tempted by prospect of improving sleep thru's. Am looking for clues, he seems to be sticking his tongue out a bit. But milk still seems to satisfy him. Any views on this anyone? In meantime its off to bed for me too.

Pena - firstly - I take it all back re: adding extra formula to water. Spoke to someone who knowa a lot better, and she said 'no, no, no!' Bad for their kidneys, apparently! oops......
There's a good swimmimg thread on mumsnet 'how to teach......'. Solids: 16 weeks minimum, or when 5 x 8oz feeds doesn't satisy them. Tongue moving up & down, in and out v. important, to help them swallow. I'm going to try him on the gina routine for solids at 16 weeks, but if he struggles, then back to milk for a few days etc. until he seems happy. At the moment he's fascinated by everyone elses food, so I think that's a good sign!

my theory on the 7am feeds is that they are naturally eliminating one feed now, unfortunately it's not the 11pm one, it's the 7am one. Once they're going through for a week, try decreasing last feed and see what happens at 7am. Also, I think that their stomachs sort of shrink a bit in the night, so that they can't face a big feed first thing....? I know that that's how I feel sometimes. DS decided to leave a total of 5oz of formula today, over 4 feeds, so we'll see how he does, too!!!

Sorry to bore everyone with the daily accounts of DS's progress - he woke again at 4am & increasingly hard to console - had to feed him at 6am which he left 2 ozs. But I plan to keep increasing his other feeds gradually over next few days & see how that goes. I agree about stomach in morning. As a child I remember throwing up when I was made to eat breakfast at 7am.

Manna - its so exciting to see same signs in our ds - yes, he's sticking his tongue out a lot these days & he's fascinated at watching us eat.

pena - after his 6am feed, when did he eat again? do you split the feed or try and make him last? I would give him 3oz and the rest 7.30? Having said that ds was up 5.15 again, down 5.45, up 6.30 down until 7.15!!!! Ho, hum........

help!!!!! ds is going off his formula. Having happily taken 5 x 6.5oz feeds I've just put them up to 7. Last week he started turning his nose up at up to 3oz of 7am feed. The last 2 days he regularly leaves 2oz 7am feed, the same or more of 2.30pm and a bit of 6pm. At his 2.30pm today he only took 3oz!!!! Obviously this makes me paranoid as good feeding = good sleeping according to gf. He has had a cold, but I think it's on its way out now. Also very moany, but I thought this was because of lack of food. Is he sick? how can I tell and what should I do? He's always fed really well. Can you have the opposite to a growth spurt?

Unless he is loosing weight or looking unwell.... don't panick ! First this is unlikely to affect his sleep rythm.
We also get less hungry sometimes!
Make sure you are not bringing your personal "worries" into his feed... keep it positive and don't insist too much.
How old is he now ?

thanks pupuce - you're right, as usual. I definitely think he's 'out of sorts': whiny, listless, hot etc. it must be a cold. I phoned the doctor and he said a dose or 2 of calpol should do the trick. He's 14 weeks old now. Interesting about it not interfering with their sleep patterns: how come?
Also - you're right about personal stuff coming into the feeding: I'm so intent on him finishing it makes me anxious. As we speak his godmother is upstairs giving him his feed - lets hope she has more luck. I'm hiding down here - can't bear watching. Oops - I hear crying - i think he's had enough. Better go and see.......

GF says herself (and it is my experience as well) that from 16 weeks onwards you can relax with the routines, they are well established.... so he isn't 16 yet.... but the bulk of the work is done and even if for a few days it is "screwed" up you can quickly re-establish it.
What do you think bf mothers have on their breasts... gauges ???? Just kidding ! I have sometimes the feeling that DD should be eating more but I can't measure.
On thing is fairly sure : he won't starve himself !

BTW Pena/Manna : IMO (this is not medical advice) your babies are to young to be weaned. And eating less formula doesn't mean looking forward to solids. I know it's tempting because you feel that this will solve the night wakings... Don't bet on it at this stage. The reason to hold off is because their digestive systems need to be ready... too early is therefore not a good idea. Some babies start solids at 6 months old.
I'll look at the CLBB tonight to see if I have more constructive ideas ! I'll post again - in case you were in doubt

I agree with your comment about solids, Pupuce. Ounce for ounce, solids contain less calories than milk, which is why some babies stay static weightwise or can even lose weight when first introduced to solids. Giving solids is certainly no guarantee they will sleep through the night, unfortunately.

LOL at the bf gauge - I'm sure someone will invent one, one day, to screw yet more money out of parents!

Pupuce, every book I read says start solid at 4 months, I am also noticing that I get asked increasingly frequently when I'm starting ds on solids. Obviously, you start to feel then that you should start at 4 otherwise somethings wrong with either ds or with me. But I def. don't want to rush him, is it ok to let him take the lead on when he's ready for it?

Just to note, my sister told me that in NZ, they now recommend starting solids at six months, not four.

Interesting to follow this thread, as Sam is about the same age - 14wks - and after a brief period of sleeping through to 5-6am and VERY occasionally 7am, is now back (this last week) to waking at 3.30am very hungry. Also wakes himself up at 10.30pm for a feed (we used to have to wake him) so I'm wondering/hoping it's a growth spurt thing - although this phase appears to be lasting far too long for that! Dispiriting when all your friends' babies are sleeping through 7-7 - and somehow it seems more tiring when you have enjoyed the brief luxury of a 5-6hr sleep. However it seems more tiring to not feed him, and have another waking at 5am, than to feed him and get back to sleep til 7am. And with breastfeeding it is all too easy just to latch them on and drift off. I've promised myself that if it's not improved by 4 mths I'll get tough....

If I remember correctly the US pediatrics Association recommends to wait as long as you can.
The advice you read usually is that it is common and OK to start at 4 but you can wait longer.
A lot of mums start at 4 months old because they don't know that they can wait longer (as you say it's common advice/knowledge) or they're keen to get their baby to "have a new experience" or to wean them off BF or believe this will help with the night wakings.... Having said that I also know plenty of medical advice (HV, GP,....) who will tell you that if your baby is not showing signs that he is hungry (for example wanting foods earlier than his regular feeding time).... then there is no "medical" or "developmental" reason to feed him solids. There are babies (rare to my knowledge) who are only bf until 1 !
Most of my friends and relatives who have the same sort of views as I do, have waited longer... usually nearer 6 months because their babies were content with just bf/bottles. They were thriving.
Having said that one of my SIL started earlier than 4 months as her son showed clear sign of being very hungry (a bit like Sam... so FlorenceUK you may need to start earlier but then (IMO) be very careful with the foods you introduce- not much variety.

My baby, now nearly nine months, is a very big boy, and I assumed he would want solids as early as possible, but he wasn't remotely interested in them until after 6 months. It has also had no discernible effect on his sleep patterns. he still doesn't sleep through the night!

just a quick update and idea for pena:

As you know, I've been having trouble with ds's feeds. He's started taking less, and whilst he was a bit under the weather, this happened before cold occurred. Anyway - I noticed that he was creatig a lot of suction on a medium teat (which he has been on for ages, as he's so big!), which resulted in build up of pressure in the bottle with accompanying whining noise (from bottle, not him!!), sudden release of suction and flood of milk. This was getting him v. frustrated, choking him and causing him to give up earlier than normal. Anyway, tonight I tries a slow flow, thinking he wouldn't get the flooding. It worked, but was soooo slow, and he got fed up anyway. Then I tried a fast one, and he was away. Finished all 8oz!! I think that, if the baby is big enough to handle it, the constant flow without sudden rushes is much more comfortable for them, even if it means going on to a bigger teat than recommended. That was certainly the case when I put him on to medium. (recommended for 3 months +, he went on them at 6 weeks, happily.) so Pena, as we obviously have twins, why don't you try a fast flow teat for a feed, especially if you notice the suction thing I've described. If he doesn't lik it, you can always change it back. Fingers crossed for tonight!

Florenceuk - is you're baby breast or bottle fed?

Manna

I'm breastfeeding - and as you might tell, NOT following the GF tips for sleeping through the night, although we try to follow the routine during the day. But a bit like your baby, over the past few weeks Sam has zigzagged between sleeping through to 7am, waking up at 5-6am (and I mean really wide awake - refusing to go back to sleep), and now back to 3-4am. I think GF says a breastfed baby may genuinely need a feed in the middle of the night up to about 5 mths so I've procrastinated on any sleep training, esp as he is still in our room. But if you are working, I can understand desire to sort it out at this stage.

I need some advice about ds's eating - very sporadic at the moment. Should I start a new thread or add it to a gina one because he is a gina baby? if I need to start a new one, can someone tell me how?

Manna, to start a new thread go to 'topics', click on 'food' and scroll down until you come to 'create a conversation'... Hope that helps.

Thanks Manna,

Well-timed advice as ds (after sleeping thru' to 6.30 today - yippeee - believe me I was delirious with joy & hopping up & down ) was off his milk - only drank 1 oz this am & 3-4 oz at 11 am. He doesn't look sick but seemed annoyed - so may be time to change teats.

All mums with babes who are not yet sleeping thru' = don't be disheartened - we're still struggling even tho' ds was was perfect Gina baby last nite - on Thursday he was a nightmare as he wouldn't settle at 4am that I had to feed him at 5.00 which he didnt finish = its times like that when you just think "grrr you bxxxxxx!!!"

True Pena.... I didn't think of it as I bf... but teats need to be changed (I am sure you know that) but maybe it isn't fast enough or something like that.
Good luck and well done on the night.

World Health Organisation guidelines say babies don't need solids until 6 months. 4 months is promoted to further the interests of baby food manufacturers ( the people who put banned-elsewhere-in-Europe substances in baby food.)

I also think there is a concern in Western countries to make babies and thus adults huge to ensure future benefits and privileges. Thats why we try to stuff food into kids who are not interested.

Hi serena, I am interested in your sentence
"I also think there is a concern in Western countries to make babies and thus adults huge to ensure future benefits and privileges."

I don't really know what you mean by this but it sounds interesting.
Who wants to make adults huge? Who is concerned? And do you mean that big people enjoy more benefits and privileges? Do you mean it is a conscious or a subliminal thing? ( ie mothers think big people get a bigger slice of the action so stuff their babies full of food to make them grow big?) I may have completely misunderstood you.
Please expand. Thanks in anticipation.
As for giving solids at 4 months , not six being to further the interests of baby food manufacturers, what is the evidence for this? I have beside me two infant feeding books, one by Anabel Karmel, and one by Suzannah Oliver and I have just had a look through them to see what advice they give regards weaning onto solids. Both authors suggest supplementing ( ideally breast) milk feeds with simple purees at around 4 months, if the baby shows signs of wanting to. Both authors say it is perfectly fine to give breastmilk only for six months. Do you think these authors have some kind of hidden agenda and are secretly in cahoots with baby food manufacturers?
I am not saying this to argue the case for offering solids at 4 as opposed to 6 months.( personally if I had been more successful with breastfeeding I would probably have erred towards a later weaning date) I just wonder where you got the notion that the idea of giving solids at 4 months has somehow come about via the babyfood manufacturers, when respected child nutritionists agree with this timescale as a starting point.
Please don't think I am being confrontational. It is just that every so often viewpoints such as your own pop up and I am interested in the evidence to support them.

oh no!! by all estimates I'm huge (tall, not fat) at 6ft, with a 6ft 3 dh. I didn't realise I was trying to breed a master race . I thought I was just an anxious first time mum concerned that a baby weighing 10lb 3oz at birth should be eating enough to keep his speedily developing body going!( And making my mistakes / mooting my ideas very publicly on mumsnet.) Oh well - I look forward to his 'future benefits and priviliges' supporting me in my old age...